Memo to George - An extra in a clonetrooper suit is 1000% better than any CGI creation

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SoftballWizard388, May 19, 2002.

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  1. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    re: threepio the bendy and the shaak riding...

    this is where i think the CG leads to laziness or just plain bad judgement... just because you can do something doesnt mean you should... if it doesnt look good either figure out a better way to do it or cut it out or rewrite. IMO
  2. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    obviously the real thing looks better than something trying to make it look like the real thing. sure it might look better if we get hundreds of extras that are exactly the same height, or even get (the dude who played jango fett) in the clonetrooper suit himself and make him do all the moves that the clonetroopers make and put them together digitally.

    The movie Aliens was accomplished with James Cameron having only six full-size alien models. This information comes from the Aliens making-of documentary on the DVD.

    First of all, everyone should ask themselves why it would be necessary that all the extras be "exactly the same height". No one in the audience would be able to tell in the heat of a battle. However, when an audience member, perhaps myself for the sake of argument, realizes that a character on the screen is an animated cartoon and not a real person, I am indeed taken "out of the moment" and am cast into the realm of Final Fantasy. Special effects professionals often tell you that the best effects don't appear to be effects. If you can tell, then there's something wrong.

    Well, I can tell, so there's something wrong.

    Why couldn't Lucas just hire ten people or so, have them wear the Clonetrooper suits (not as expensive as you might think), and just use advanced computer technology to "clone" (the Photoshop term, heh heh) the action. After all, James Cameron only had 6 aliens.

    And the pear could have been done with a stiff, green wire.
  3. Darth_Poutine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 3
    I didn't even know all the clones were cgi until I read it. IMHO, they are very well done.

    This reminds me of the TPM debate where some people complained that the space battle looked way too cgi when it was actually models that were used.

    Cmon people - have you seen ROJ recently? The rancor looks only slighty better than a sock puppet. You can't say that's better than the cgi shaak.

    Dunno what all this cgi bashing is all about. AOTC looks fantastic. Especially Yoda. I re-watched TPM recently and the puppet really looks bad. I hope they replace him for the Ultimate edition DVDs. They can leave him alone for the OT though. Nostalgia you know... [face_love]
  4. 3rdaxis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2002
    star 1
    Digital crowds were really cool a few years ago, but your ability to cram as many digital extras into a frame does not make you the equivalent of David Lean (this was especially annoying in movies like LOTR and THE MUMMY).

    I have no problems with digital crowds, but it depends on the context and professionalism of the execution.

    LOTR, to me, is a good example of crowd use. Here, in Middle Earth, we have a tremendous battle between the Dark and Light armies. A plus is Weta?s ?Massive? software, allowing for realistic combat simulation.

    ?The Mummy Returns? is a not-so-good example. The effects should be taken with a grain of salt (i.e. not photorealistic) since the film itself proceeds like a comic book type ?superhero adventure?. Despite this, Anubis? army was below par. The figures didn?t seem to contact the sand they were running on, and a lot of the motions were repetitive. Perhaps it was just the fact that these dog warriors didn?t look too real to start with.

    Anyways, rant over. AOTC did overuse effects, but there were instances of memorable VFX shots.
  5. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    >>>Special effects professionals often tell you that the best effects don't appear to be effects. If you can tell, then there's something wrong.

    Well, I can tell, so there's something wrong.<<<

    You realize that this is STAR WARS, right? It has a bunch of people in weird costumes, slashing laser-shooting droid warriors with glowing laser swords. And space ships flying around asteroids, blowing up other ships with their space rockets. I don't care how good the special effects are, you are going to be able to tell it's a special effect! That's the nature of the movie...it's a visual spectacle. You can't make a giant lobster/dinosaur "subtle"...you just can't. If this bothers you, maybe film just isn't the medium for you.

    >>>And the pear could have been done with a stiff, green wire.<<<

    I just want to point out something to you people. We are arguing....over a FREAKING PEAR!!! Does anyone realize how pathetic this is? What sad events have transpired in our lives, that would result in us arguing over the internet for hours on end...over a freaking PEAR of all things? A pear that was on screen for what, four seconds?

    I love internet debates as much as anybody, but it's times like these when we should all take a good look at our lives. We could be doing so much more, you know? Why not go outside? Get some exercise! Read a book! Go out and get yourself a sexy girlfriend, because damn it, you deserve it! Just do something...anything other than arguing about a pear! I'm going out with some friends to play a rousing game of tennis. Who's with me?
  6. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
  7. Import_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    We could be doing so much more, you know? Why not go outside? Get some exercise! Read a book! Go out and get yourself a sexy girlfriend, because damn it, you deserve it!

    I visited one of my friends at her workplace and she burned me a CD featuring songs by this nice female Chinese singer. ;)


    To bad my friend already has a boyfriend [face_plain]
  8. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    "this is where i think the CG leads to laziness or just plain bad judgement... just because you can do something doesnt mean you should... if it doesnt look good either figure out a better way to do it or cut it out or rewrite. IMO"

    You know what? You're absolutely right. If it won't look good and there's not a better way to do it, rewrite or cut it out. Hopefully when Lucas releases the ultimate editions he'll remove the Jawas (I can tell that their eyes are lights), all the lasers in A New Hope (they just don't look real), the lightsabers in A New Hope (Also don't look good) the Taun Tauns in ESB (jerky stop motion), Luke getting his hand cut off (I can see the bend of his wrist), the Rancor (matte lines), Luke slashing people with his lightsaber on Jabba's sail barge (His lightsaber didn't cut them, looks bad), the speeder chase on Endor (obvious blue screen), and anything else that doesn't look perfect.

    It's too bad Lucas didn't just rewrite these parts of the films originally since he couldn't make them look perfect. But the least he could do now is cut them out, yeah the story will be ruined and such editing would be a stifling of imagination, but oh boy, nothing would look fake or bad!

    Come on everybody! Who's with me!?!?
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    but see thats the thing... no one had a reason to complain before BECAUSE THE OT FILMS HOLD UP IN SPITE OF THEIR FLAWS.

    you miss the reality of the situation completely.

    i think you would agree that there is a major difference between looking at an effect and seeing it doesnt work WHILE YOU ARE MAKING THE FILM...

    and going back and fixing stuff 20 years after the fact. yes i could tell there were lights under the jawas hoods but it didnt matter because the rest of the film was engaging enough to suspend the audiences' disbelief.
  10. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    Well then what the hell do you want? You say you the PT effects take you right out of the story, but when we point out that the OT had bad effects too, you say you were too into the story to notice. Curse you and your circular arguments!
  11. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4
    Vlad, I'm with you! Let's hit the tennis courts or go to the gym. Enough of these pears and clonetroopers! ;)

    Afterwards, if we can find a theatre still showing it we can watch AOTC and cackle maniacally at our enjoyment of key CGI moments, :)
  12. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    Then perhaps you should stop criticizing CGI clone troopers and take some time grappling with why the film didn't hold up for you despite its flaws. One second you're going on and on about the problems of the effects of the PT, the next you're saying effects don't matter. But somehow I think that if the effects were perfect and seamless, you still wouldn't like the film. So why are you even attacking the effects? And if the film really doesn't hold up for you, why are you even here discussing it? Why not stick to the OT forums? Because you really wanted to like AOTC right? That's what most people say. But you don't like it and the film is not going to change, so just move on, you'll be doing yourself a favor.
  13. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    no i think ill stay here and discuss why I THINK AOTC is sub-par and maybe you should go somewhere in a far off magical land where everyone thinks AOTC was a good film. sorry but i live in the real world.
  14. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    "i think you would agree that there is a major difference between looking at an effect and seeing it doesnt work WHILE YOU ARE MAKING THE FILM... "

    And what the heck does that mean? Do you think Lucas watched footage of the clone troopers during editing and said "Man... this looks terrible, guys in suits would be better, but whatever."

    He thinks it looks good, I think it looks good, many others think it looks good, you don't, that's your opinion.

    By the by, Lucas noticed that tons of effects weren't working in the OT while he was making those films (vaseline under the landspeeder anyone?). But he didn't cut out the landspeeder or rewrite because he had a story to tell and that story had a landspeeder. Just like the story of AOTC has pears and clones.

    If you don't like it, that's fine, but stop visiting fan forums then. Why visit fan forums for something that you're not a fan of? I simply do not understand, unless you're trolling which you don't seem to be doing.
  15. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    "no i think ill stay here and discuss why I THINK AOTC is sub-par and maybe you should go somewhere in a far off magical land where everyone thinks AOTC was a good film. sorry but i live in the real world."

    Yes... the real world... a Star Wars fan forum on the internet. You certainly are firmly grounded in the real world.

    Stay in the AOTC forum as long as you want if you're that much of a masochist. All the intelligent people in this forum will continue to pick your flimsy arguments into little pieces, when they're not busy in the REAL real world. Enjoy wasting your life, I'm sure that you're an expert.
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    You see Griffz and PB what NOT having Basher/Gusher Threads has given us in this thread?
    Personal attacks. Wow. What an improvement. [face_plain]
  17. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    DarthCorky

    its nice to see you characterise people who disagree with you as lacking intelligence.

    it tells alot about how your arguments are formed and speaks to the validity(or lack of validity)of your posts.

    "real world" yes the REAL WORLD WHERE THERE IS A FORUM WHERE PEOPLE DISCUSS THE STAR WARS SAGA AS OPPOSED TO THE FANTASY WONDERLAND YOU WISH TO DWELL IN WHERE EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU AND NEVER SAYS ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT GEORGE LUCAS AND STAR WARS.

    maybe you should stop posting here and continue your unrealistic hopes of finding a place where everyone will agree with you. i mean whats the point of making a post if someone is going to disagree and wreck it? why do you continue posting on a board filled with alternate opinions? i dont think this board is the place for you.
  18. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    mmm SPAM!

    yeah, its funny... but does it have to be stuck into every thread?
  19. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    DrEvazan

    Why do you continue to post in a forum dedicated to something that you don't like?
  20. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    "The movie Aliens was accomplished with James Cameron having only six full-size alien models."

    This is true, but completely irrelevant in this argument. Aliens was set in small, dark, enclosed environments. Using tricks involving camera angles and editing, Cameron managed to complete the film with six alien costumes and make it believable. AOTC has an epic ground battle set in broad daylight in the middle of a huge open space. Six clone troopers wouldn't have worked, and if they were duplicated digitally... well the reason why this is ridiculous has already been explained many times on this thread.
  21. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    Corky

    Why do you continue to post in a forum dedicated to disscussing things you disagree with?
  22. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    First of all, I'll add my last question to the long list of questions that you have not bothered to answer.

    Secondly, I'll answer yours. This AOTC forum is a fan forum. I have this ridiculous expectation that I will find fans on a fan forum.

    Fan: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

    Kind of sounds like a "gusher" doesn't it?

    Now obviously a lot of non fans seem to enjoy being here for whatever reason. Frankly, I am on the verge of leaving this forum and never coming back since so many of you are impossible to reason with. I have better things to do with less cynical and unintelligent people.

    The way you come to a forum for a film you don't like and then criticize one part of it is completely ridiculous in my opinion.

    That's like if I went to a fan forum for "Resident Evil" and complained about the bad effects. I don't care, I hated the movie, I don't need to go to a fan forum devoted to it.

    As far as your opinions and accusations that I think anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, I don't think that. I think people who ignore solid points that are raised and continue to preach their disproven theories are wrong. And that's just my opinion.

  23. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    I agree with your opinion darth corky.
  24. Master_Infamous Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 1
    This is the future!Not 1977,1980,1983! Cgi is what it is! If you like real people in the films then watch the old ot! Just my opinion so don't hate on a fellow Star Wars fan.
  25. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    Thank goodness, some intelligent posts. Faith.... slowly..... returning.
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