Memo to George - An extra in a clonetrooper suit is 1000% better than any CGI creation

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SoftballWizard388, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    DrEvazan said:

    its nice to see you characterise people who disagree with you as lacking intelligence.

    it tells alot about how your arguments are formed and speaks to the validity(or lack of validity)of your posts.


    This has to be one of the funniest things I've read, coming from you. This is the same person who said that peopel who like AOTC are "fooling themselves". This is the same person who states that the quality of a movie is completely objective, states the the movie is BAD and anyone who disagrees is wrong, states that this is the absolute truth and people who don't see things his way are "blind" and "Lucas worshippers", and then has the nerve to say that people should listen to him because he is just stating his opinion. This is the person who accused me of being a, well I don't remember the exact words, but it ended with the phrase "Lucas humper" (whatever that's supposed to mean). This is the person who says "gusher is a synonym for blind fool".

    Meanwhile he ignores any evidence against his points. In one thread, he asks people to give examples of depth in AOTC. People provide links to several in-depth discussions on the depth of AOTC. He ignores said post entirely, accuses said person of flaming, and then goes back to his statement that fans of AOTC are "pretending" that there is depth in it.

    Then he has the nerve to accuse other people of doing everything that he has done.

    So DrEvazan, why are you here? Do you get off at telling people how much you hate AOTC? Have you ever posted in a contructive thread? Most bashers that I've seen have constructive comments to add, ranging from symbolism in AOTC, to favorite lines, to speculation. I've never seen a post of this sort from you. Only posts about how much you hate AOTC (and let's not forget the posts calling people who like AOTC idiots). Why do you stay here, then? Maybe you should take Star Wars less seriously. Go check out the real world.

    And if you try debating in real life, refrain from calling them "idiots". It really doesn't help, and trust me, it doesn't do anything to support your position.
  2. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    Well said Lord Hydronium. I applaud you.
  3. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    Mad props to Lord Hydronium.
  4. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    DrEvazan's reply to LordHydronium:

    Um.... uh.... real people in suits look better!!!!

    *runs away*
  5. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    Just a note: It's really hard to discuss a topic even as mundane and dry as CGI when everyone goes into immediate defensive posturing about the supposed difference between fact and opinion. I've long accepted that most everything on these posts are opinions, backed occasionally by facts, and more often by just passions of the heart. Perhaps it's my imagination, but it seems like everytime DrEvazan posts, a little scuffle starts on this very point. Perhaps it's because of his passive aggressive way of writing. Truth to tell, he makes some good points, but you just have to get past the gusher baiting tone to see them, which begs the question: Why do so many people take the bait? Isn't it just better to stand above it and argue intelligently, or move on? I'm not sure what DrEvazan's intentions are, other than he says he loves the OT but hates the PT and that's why he's here, to spread that word (thanks, buddy). Fine. He might even believe that. But I think we all know he derives some inner joy at yanking the chain of gushers and that's the real reason why he's here. But why gushers, or just PT fans, continue to take the bait is a little beyond me. I almost appreciate someone like DarthTomas more who just comes out and calls the mods a 'F....ing a....hole fa....t'. At least there's honesty in his anger and you know where he's coming from (all the better to head in the other direction).

    But back on topic: CGI has its virtues, especially in giving life to things that have no real life. Things like dinosaurs, water sentient life forms, and even little green Jedis. I, for one, loved the digital Yoda and how more interactive he seemed, especially in respects to his facial expressions. The only time I think it failed was in the lightsabre scene, where it was just too obviously fake, for me. I think where CGI gets indulgent is when a movie is surrounded by it, as the case was in CLONES. As one poster mentioned: Is it necessary to always be looking out on a window packed with activity? Perhaps that's why I love the Tatooine scenes so much. Watching real sand and real horizons was such a relief given all the digital work that preceded it.

  6. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Well, as to backgrounds, my thoughts:

    Coruscant: Contained the most CG backgrounds, but they were relatively still, and weren't the main focus. I thought they were a nice backdrop, and I didn't feel they overwhelmed the foreground action.

    Naboo: A nice, peaceful lake (which was real), and waterfalls (which were real, but composited) were the backdrops here. The lake formed a nice setting, and didn't overpower anything. The waterfalls might make the setting more dramatic than it should be, but I thought they were pretty well done.

    Tatooine: Sandy horizons don't draw the eye away. That was done well. Some of the places with rock formations might, but I found them to be OK as well.

    Kamino: Rain and water. Didn't feel it was overly active.

    Geonosis: This was also pretty well done. All the Obi-Wan stuff is done over a basic rock background. The rock formations are really only visible in the battle scenes, and in those cases, there's no way it can draw your eye away.

    Personally, I feel that CGI was used well. Its a tool, like any other. People don't say "matte paintings were overused" or "rubber masks were overused", so I don't see why CGI should be any different.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I must be the only person here who just watches the movie and don't give a flying **** about whether or not something looks real or fake. Or whether or not something is distracting. I've seen films where the effects were really damn obvious and I couldn't help but notice. Yet, I didn't let it distract me too much or hardly at all. I just go with it.
  8. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    wow Lord H, youre getting your "bashers mixed up.

    the comment about being a lucas humper was a joke, and as for most of the rest im not sure if you are just usuing me as the scapegoat of all people who thought AOTC sucked, or you are truly confused.

    oh well... sorry i upset you.

    life goes on.
  9. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    >>>I think where CGI gets indulgent is when a movie is surrounded by it, as the case was in CLONES. As one poster mentioned: Is it necessary to always be looking out on a window packed with activity?<<<

    Good point. Practically every interior on Coruscant has a huge window showcasing the bustling outside world. Is it necessary? Well, no. Does it distract? Not in my opinion, but I can see how it might catch the eyes of others.

    But let me propse another question: if the CGI effects weren't so new, would we ever notice or care about there being windows everywhere? Check out the OT. Just about every shot has some sort of droid or alien or space ship. Back in the day, people could logically complain about shamless special effects showboating. But here we are, 20 years later, and all the special are so old hat that we barely even notice them.

    Maybe in 20 more years, after all the hundreds CG-heavy scifi movies, we won't have any need to focus on background effects like this, and we'll just pay attention to the story like we do for the OT.
  10. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Back in the day, people could logically complain about shamless special effects showboating.

    Actually, they did. I think it was that New York Times guy (you know, the one who hates every SW movie but the original, Vince Something) who said that George was trying to overwhelm audiences with special effects, and as a result, the movie suffered (gee, doesn't that sound familiar ;) ). That's really the only review I've read of ESB, so I don't know if any other critics had a problem with that, but it shows that there were people that complained about overused special effects. (for the record, Vince Whatshisname referred to Yoda as an "overgrown sock puppet")

    I don't want this thread to collapse into a flame war like so many others have, but for the record, DrE, all those quotes were direct quotes from you.

    Now let's get this thread back to a reasonable discussion, shall we?
  11. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Now obviously a lot of non fans seem to enjoy being here for whatever reason. Frankly, I am on the verge of leaving this forum and never coming back since so many of you are impossible to reason with. I have better things to do with less cynical and unintelligent people."

    dont let the door hit you on the way out.

    "The way you come to a forum for a film you don't like and then criticize one part of it is completely ridiculous in my opinion."

    i ciritcize alot of AOTC... you should read more carefully

    "That's like if I went to a fan forum for "Resident Evil" and complained about the bad effects. I don't care, I hated the movie, I don't need to go to a fan forum devoted to it."

    you dont care about resident evil, neither do i... i care about star wars and a hate seeing it go down the tubes.

    "As far as your opinions and accusations that I think anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, I don't think that. I think people who ignore solid points that are raised and continue to preach their disproven theories are wrong. And that's just my opinion."

    please tell me what has been disproven.

    it seems to me most of the unwarranted flaming and insults come from the gushers... in fact there are entire threads here dedicated to the idea that anyone who didnt like or had a problem with this movie is an idiot or a moron or otherwise mentally impaired... its time star wars fans who actually care that the saga is steadily going down in quality speak up.

    i for one am sick of the passive acceptance of mediocrity that has reared its ugly head with the release of the PT.

    i wonder who the real fans are. the ones who accept everything as it comes, or the ones who love the saga so much that they care enough to not want to see it dragged down into obscurity, even if its downfall is being orchestrated by the man who created the saga in the first place.
  12. Luke_Clone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "Is it necessary to always be looking out on a window packed with activity?"

    Actually, you come up with a good point Bresson. There were several shots where, IMHO, the traffic was a bit distracting. However, in the majority of such scenes/shots I thought the background hustle and bustle was fine. For example, the scene between Palpatine and Anakin as they are walking towards the camera. You can clearly see the HUGE windown behind them but the focus is upon the two actors. That scene/shot works wonderfully for me anyway and the background detail is not distracting. Then again, I'm partial to windows as I think the "opening up" of Cloud City is one of single best changes in the SEs. :)
  13. DarthCorky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    DrEvazan...

    You're not worth it. Enjoy your sad critical existence. I'll make sure not to let the door hit me on the way out.
  14. grendelsfork Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    The thing is, it might be awesome to see a clone in a suit, non cgi, but we'll just never know what differnce it would have made, so why worry?

    Anyway i think it worked well enough if not perfectly.. but i admit, the idea of a clone extra is intriguing..
  15. dmodog Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 1999
    well i'm back to discuss some things with you people.

    before i start, DrEvazan, you have hit a new low. you really make me angry, for reasons you probably already know. and no, it's not because of your opinions, it's because you don't know anything about anything.

    now first of all, as far as the whole "we're the real fans because we criticize everything" argument is, as though your nitpicking is some kind of noble crusade.. if you think there are so many problems, you're not a fan. if you hate the PT, you're not a star wars fan, you're an OT fan.

    now as far as the whole coruscant window thing... well listen, if you have an apartment or whatever in a city like coruscant, well you aren't going to seal up the windows with boards and make sure you get a place with no windows. it's an absolutely stunning city, and if you lived there you would want windows everywhere. i mean you never walk around new york and say "too many windows!", but there are windows there and it's not even as good looking as coruscant! hell if you were in a city like coruscant, wouldn't you look out at the city every few minutes? isn't that the point that george lucas wants to make? coruscant is a visually stunning city like no other in the galaxy. and not everyone gets the chance to go there.

    and as for the pear, man... a pear on a pole? on a POLE? did i hear you right? listen... the only way you could make the pear look real, as if it was floating weightlessly in the air, is if you got in one of the planes that went straight down making everything weightless and shot the scene in one of those. in other words, you NEED cgi for this scene. again there are numerous problems with using strings and poles. if you use a string, it will only spin horizontally, making it look like it was floating on a string (go figure), and then it would also be hard for natalie to stick her fork into the pair. now if you did it on a pole, it would look worse while it's floating in the air. it would either not rotate at all, or only rotate in one direction. now another way you can do it is if you went into outer space and made the pear float for real, but the problems you would face with this is making everything else look like it's being affected by weight. you would have to hold natalie's hair down, you would have to stick the table to the ground, you would have to stick everything onto the table, etc. so just like the clones, the easiest way to do this is with cgi.

    people have to understand that with movies like star wars, you have to take the easiest route to do things and get the shots you need. i'm sure there's many people who would want george lucas to travel the universe and shoot the star wars saga on location, but it ain't gonna happen, no matter how much you want it. sure it would make it a better looking movie, even know it would take hundreds of billions of tax payers money and it would take 20 generations of lucas to do, it would overall be a better looking movie. but until we get to that level, we are gonna have to use cgi and models to do things.
  16. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    bye Corky!

    care to join him before your head explodes with anger dmodog?

    there are several easier practical ways of achieving the floating pear effect. none of them involve a zero gravity drop plane or traveling to other planets. i see your imagination is as limited as lucas' on this problem.

    read up on your special effects techniques... you might learn something.

    if you think my tone is rude or off color, go back and read each and every post you have made on this subject. in every one you tell us how you cant believe how stupid and moronic people who dont agree with you are... your superior tone started with your first post and got progressively worse. if you wish to be treated intelligently and responded to as if you actually have a point other than everyone who disagrees is moronic then i suggest you look at your own quotes...

    "sometimes i can't even believe how dumb some of these people on the board are."

    "i hate to say it, but some of you people are complete cowardly morons."

    "DrEvazan, i have to agree with darth corky here, that WAS utterly moronic."

    i hate to say it, dmodog but you are a hypocrite.

    and as a rule i dont speak down to anyone unless i am spoken down to. unless its intended for humorous purposes, as in the case of Lord H up there. As i remember it was in response to some comment about name-calling, and to make light of it i called him a silly name that ended with a smiley to make sure he would see my humorous intent.

    hey heres an idea! lets get back on the topic. as ive stated before i didnt mind the CG troopers, perhaps they could have been integrated better with non-CG elements... but i do think overall the CG is overused to the detriment of AOTC.


  17. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I'm a little curious as to why people zealously "defend" AOTC and other movies "against" bashers, when the movie should be strong enough to defend itself.

    If someone had something negative to say about... Tron, for example... what do I gain by making ad hominem attacks on said critic? At most all I can reasonably do is point out the critic's faulty logic and offer a constrasting point of view.

    At worst I can ask pointless rhetorical questions like "If you don't like Tron then why are you here," or "You're such a moron, it's useless to talk to you" or "I agree wholeheartedly with X, you are a moron." What a waste of time and trouble.

    Now let's go back to debating the special FX of George Lucas's prequel to Pete's Dragon.
  18. jelaat-yubaani Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    the clonetroopers looked awesome wish i'd have seen it digital though
  19. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    What do you have against Tron? :mad: 8-}
  20. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    >>>I'm a little curious as to why people zealously "defend" AOTC and other movies "against" bashers, when the movie should be strong enough to defend itself.<<<

    What the hell does that mean? Every movie gets bashed by someone. The better movies have fans to defend them.

    If I'm reading you correctly, I could just as easily say "why are you trying to point out the movie's flaws, when the movie's badness should already be apparent?". I'm sorry, what you say makes zero sense to me.

    >>>If someone had something negative to say about... Tron, for example... what do I gain by making ad hominem attacks on said critic? At most all I can reasonably do is point out the critic's faulty logic and offer a constrasting point of view.<<<

    Wait...so you'd "point out the critic's faulty logic and offer a constrasting point of view". In other words, you'd be "defending" the film, against its "basher". WTF??? I thought you said Tron should be good enought to defend itself?

    Or are you saying that argument only applies to Star Wars? You want a movie to magically come to life and debate its flaws with you, so us fans don't have to? I know some fans hold Star Wars to an impossible standard, but come on, this is ridiculous!
  21. The Flying Dutchman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 4
    TokyoXtreme
    Registered: Oct 01

    Date Posted: 7/7 9:36am Subject: RE: Memo to George

    The droid factory was obviously entirely CGI

    Wrong it wasn't, only for a part...

    Nature and physics (a physical prop) does a worse job appearing realistic than does a human animator with a drawing?

    No, but it just about impossible to make Geonosians and Kominosians as a Prop. Just their movement (flying and graceful walking/moving) could very well turnout horrible!

    [Q]No model of a Kaminosian (?) would have that perfect lip/eye movement
    [A]Why not?

    Did you miss Yoda in TMP? Or in TesB: His mouth doesn't correspond with the words...

    [Q]- No pupet could do what Yoda did in AotC and even if they used a pupet for the none action scenes it would be to weird
    [A]This sentence lacks basic cohesion. I cannot respond.

    One of the important thinks is cohesion ;) in a movie. Changing from pupet to CGI is baaaad

    [Q]- At times even R2 is digital but nobody noticed...
    [A]If it's not in your face and obvious, the majority of people don't care.

    Most CGI wasn't obvious - a lot was model and stuff, yet ppl mistaked it for CGI (take a look at starwars.com)

    [Q] - Clonetroopers were so good that when I saifd to me friend they were CGI they said "no way!'
    [A]I'm starting to regret replying to this post.

    Then don't ?[face_plain]

    [Q]- Using an actor for Clonetroopers can't work since 1. they must be the same size 2. Even if you find a couple and multiply them you get completely WRONG perspective
    [A]At this point you should ask yourself what's the point of showing a million soldiers fighting a million robots.

    hence the Wars in 'Star Wars' [face_plain]

    [Q] - I think ppl were also complaining about the OT that CGI looked fake...
    [A]Now I'm really regretting this reply.

    You're not even prove otherwise that it isn't!

    [Q] - Face it: without CGI the NT wouldn't be even possible so life with it!
    [A] Well, the PT as it is now wouldn't be possible, but the PT as it is now is CGI overkill.

    So your dead then ?[face_plain] :p


    An other good CGI is when Anakin and Padme walk under that archway (with their bags - is also in a trailer) in Naboo, that looks 100% real!
  22. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    "Changing from pupet to CGI is baaaad "

    You could also argue that changing from a real action/background to CGI action/background is a recipe for disaster. The worst offender of this is FOTR, which had simply the worst transitions from real New Zeland locations to CGI created ones (one that sticks out is that part where Gandalf is chained to the top of a mountain). Watching the incessantly bad fx in that movie was like having someone switch the channel between a t.v. drama and a cartoon. Everytime they cut to a CGI created moment (which was everytime they didn't use a close up to tell the action; nice work, Peter), it completely took me out of the movie. Lucas was much better at balancing this in MENACE and CLONES. Perhaps it was because soooo much was CGI in those movies, but, nonetheless, the integration was better.


  23. Import_Jedi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 6
    An other good CGI is when Anakin and Padme walk under that archway (with their bags - is also in a trailer) in Naboo, that looks 100% real!


    Are you talking about the background in that scene? Cuz that archway is real; it was also used in Lawrence of Arabia :p
  24. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    The same argument was made concering music when synthesizers came to be. Now no one seems to be bothered by synth stuff even though you can still tell it's not a real instrument. Some people actually prefer it because it's seen as a style. Yes people swore that they'd never use synths or drum machines or samples...but now everyone does it and no one thinks twice. Of course most people mix real instruments with synths and a few still don't use anything synthesized. But it's not like you even take note if they are or they aren't anymore.

    In a few years people will emulate Lucas and it will seem silly that so many people criticized CG.
  25. dmodog Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 1999
    well drevazan, you never really replied to my message. you just gave me a bunch of reasons why you are obviously better than me.

    "there are several easier practical ways of achieving the floating pear effect. none of them involve a zero gravity drop plane or traveling to other planets. i see your imagination is as limited as lucas' on this problem. "

    well mr. unlimited imagination, what other ways are there to do it? in your original post you said with "poles and strings", what else is there besides cgi? tell me, what could be easier than having the actors act it out without a pear and adding the pear in later? i'd love to know what it is...

    it has less to do with special effects techniques than it has to do with common sense and what's easier to do.

    besides, what do you know about special effects techniques? your the one who's saying clonetroopers would work better if they were in suits instead of cgi.

    "in every one you tell us how you cant believe how stupid and moronic people who dont agree with you are..."

    evazan, it obvious you don't know what is even going on. are you even alive? it's not about who agrees with ME, it's about who agrees with FACTS and COMMON SENSE. hey i agree with common sense and facts, which is why i'm posting this right now. if you like digging up quotes so much, then show me an example of me expressing my opinion (if you know what an opinion is) and then calling someone an idiot if they don't agree with it.

    what do you want me to say? oh i love you drevazan. your the best. you don't listen to reason and that's what makes you great.

    "i hate to say it, dmodog but you are a hypocrite. "

    man, drevazan. do you try not to make sense? is that your goal? i said those things because it's true. there are a lot of dumb people on these boards. just look at the aotc board, there's a new topic every minute discussing something that doesn't even matter. or something that doesn't make sense. or something idiotic like how they should use a pear on a string or pole instead of the obviously better cgi alternative. or how all the clonetroopers should have been real people intstead of cgi, which actually isn't as stupid.

    what makes a lot of these people stupid, is that they don't actually think about what they are saying before they say it. i guess that's more of a fault than moronic, but i think it's moronic for someone not to admit that what they said was wrong, drevazan.

    so like i said, i can't believe some of these people on the board are as dumb as they are. maybe it's because i am around smart people most of the time and the internet is exposing me to the "other side."

    and again, what you said that time WAS utterly moronic, your comment that george lucas only cares about money than storytelling. i can tell you why it was moronic but i'll leave that for later.

    and i was referring to people being cowardly because, like yourself, you don't actually reply to messages. you just continue on with what your saying. i haven't once seen you reply to the reasons why real life clonetroopers wouldn't work in the long run, and how cgi is basically better to use in a case like this.

    "as ive stated before i didnt mind the CG troopers..."

    what? then why are you here?

    "but i do think overall the CG is overused to the detriment of AOTC. "

    okay, here's a challenge. show me one scene/shot in the entire movie that could have been better done without cgi. hopefully this will actually help you think about something for once.
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