Memo to George - An extra in a clonetrooper suit is 1000% better than any CGI creation

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SoftballWizard388, May 19, 2002.

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  1. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Why don't we just CGI Obi Wan, then we won't need Ewan MacGregor?


    Actually, from what I saw at Celebration 2, Obi-Wan was CG in a couple of the action scenes for a couple seconds (while hanging from the assassin droid, and iwhile being pulled by Jango's wire). But I could be mistaken.
  2. Rantanamo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    Before I read this thread I had no idea the close up troopers were CGI. If they were CGI, that is academy award winning stuff. Also look at the end of the arena fight when the gunship swoops in and some troops jump off the gunship. Those have to be guys in suits. Now if those are CGI, I think all the complaining needs to stop immediately. I have seen the movie in DLP, at a regular theater and about 10 times from the bootleg on my computer. The troopers jumping onto the gunship butt first actually make the gunship dip. The appearance of real weight and texture is conveyed. That is the even more impressive than the close ups. Again, if nobody told me this stuff was CGI, it would've never crossed my mind.
  3. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Um, has it even been confirmed that every single clonetrooper was CGI? For all I could tell, they were all extras in costume.
  4. Gahiggidy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 1999
    star 1
    Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, 5 pages is too much for me to wade through, but the thing about "extras" that you can't get with an animated counterpart, is the random/accidental movements of a guy bumbling around in a platstic suit. The animated trooper will be pretty much 100% deliberate and contrived. Evey little motion, no matter how subtle, is a concious decision. I know it sounds nitpickey, but the subconcious of the audience does pick-up the differance.

    Life is random, at least in the details.
  5. Kelyne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 1999
    star 3
    Thats why they use motion capture and program random walk cycles and do other things that make the cgi crowds look as realistic as possible. Lotr is an excellent example of this. While not perfect the opening orc stampede is 100% cgi and is amazing
  6. Porkins_Dietician Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 1
    CGI?? Oh crap I was too wrapped up watching the movie to give a damn.
  7. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Frankly, I'm not sure why people are trying to turn this into a moral dilema. All visual entertainment is an illusion any way, so what does it matter how that illusion is achieved?
  8. MoffJake Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2001
    star 4
    For the past few hours that this discussion has continued, I was at my second viewing of the film. The first time I saw it, I wasn't thinking too much about this issue. Suspension of disbelief was in full swing and I didn't get caught up in whether or not they were digital or filmed.

    Now after the 2nd time, speaking for myself, the jury's still out on whether or not ever trooper was CG. On almost every shot I was able to convince myself that it *could* be CG. However there were a couple shot where I have a hard time believing the state of the art is *that* good:

    -shot of Obi-Wan and Anakin on Gunship with Trooper in the background (right behind Obi-Wan)

    -Pilot of the Gunship responding to Anakin's order to fire missiles at Dooku

    Next time you see these shots, see how convinced you are that they are CG.

    Just too hard to say right now. And if ILM don't get rewarded for that work in this picture, I will self mutilate. :)
  9. Converter_of_Power Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 3
    close up and medium shots (IMO) of several troopers were actors. Wide shots where we saw 100s and thousands were CGI or duplicated clonetroopers. I think the reason that people think that Clones were CG is the lighting the bright orange and yellow atmosphere may have caused the actors to look "fake." Because so much of the movie is CG our first logical mindset when something looks off is that its CG . . .

    I dont think Lucas is crazy so I believe that Clones were actors . . .
  10. tooltre Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2000
    star 3
    Nothing beats the feeling of "humanity" in a movie...if the character is supposed to be representing a human he should be human and not cgi...

    While I realize you can't get 200,000 extras and put them in suits...you can at least use humans in situations such as the clone captain, the rescuing trooper, and the arena battle...

    Now we all realize that yoda could not be done without cgi (fighting at least) but of course he is not a human (per-se) but...there is no excuse for having a live action dooku standing next to a cgi jango fett on a physical set...no excuse...

    JANGO LOOKED PISS POOR CGI in at least two scenes: coleman trebor shooting spree, and anakin capture...he looked basically playstation 2 quality... Couldn't they just pay morrison for 2 days of extra work?

    And...if they can make plo koon, ki adi, etc... in the final shots with live actors...why not do so when they are igniting their lightsabers??? no excuse even though the cgi was added because of ki/plo mission being cut...
  11. Darth-Tom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 4
    ok, after a second viewing i still say the CG stuff from the last 1/3rd of the film was crap. Total Crap. Like someone said previously, it was like the odd couple, switching from realistic looking things (actual sets/models) to 100% CG. Really terrible. And the worst thing is, it was all so unnecesary. Things didn't need to be so CG. There was no need for Anakin to ride on all the creatures backs (easily the worst shots of the movie). There was no depth, it's was just like looking at moving matte paintings. I dunno, maybe this could have been fixed by staging the arena battle at nighttime. Compare the CG of FOTR to AOTC. PJ used to CG to compiment the movie, GL used the CG to make the movie. You tell me which was better.

    Overall, it felt rushed and in my opinion did little to take us towards the OT. Episode III just has way too much to explain. I guess my overall feeling from the movie is "I wonder how long it's been since GL actually watched to original trilogy????"
  12. Gahiggidy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 1999
    star 1
    I have no problem with duplicated via "cut-and-paste" at alll for wide shots and huge armies. In the OT, the first couple of rows would be actual Storm Troopers while the mass behind them, standing at attention, would be a matte paiting super-impossed onto the print.
  13. SoftballWizard388 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2
    Hi, everyone, some here mentioned "Spider-Man" and I think that illustrates my original post dead-on.

    Certain scenes where Spidey was flying around were CGI, and that's fine...our suspension of disbelief bleeds over to allow for a slightly cartoonish look...(again, like Jar Jar, Dexter, Yoda, Watto, etc.).

    But when Spidey is carrying Kirsten Dunst, there is ZERO NEED WHATSOEVER to have a CGI Spidey. Or when they land, there is ZERO NEED WHATSOEVER to keep a composited-in CGI Spidey, when Tobey in the costume works fine.

    I'm not against CGI. I AM AGAINST CGI FOR CGI'S SAKE. There is a huge difference, and I know must of us know that difference. But does George know it, has he lost the wisdom of moderation?
  14. SoftballWizard388 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 2

    Scenes of awful CGI work in AOTC:

    1. The scene in the Geonosis battle where Yoda was close-up in the far-right corner, and the yellow Clone Trooper was there. If they backed up the shot a foot or two, it would have helped. I watched AOTC from the farthest row, and that shot still looked like a cartoon/Final Fantasy rendering. There was not one ounce of believable "actually there" quality.

    2. Jango falling down to capture Padme and Anakin in the droid factory. I first saw this during the Padme TV ad, and thought "must be temporary". Man, they kept that in. Someone mentioned earlier, couldn't they have paid Temuera Morrison for an extra day's work? It would have looked realistic, awesome, and cool to see a REAL Jango drop down. Instead, we get a second-rate cartoon yelling "Don't move, Jedi!"

    3. Compositing in Jango to save Dooku from a Jedi Master. (It did appear that Dooku and Fett weren't together at the same time. There is *no* substitute for actual repartee on a set between *living, breathing, REAL* actors.
  15. mocha1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2001
    star 1
    hey softball you think george goes - ok ILM, i want you to put in as much CG as possible?

    he writes the script, artists do their job, and ILM figures out the best way to execute their job.

  16. MoffJake Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2001
    star 4
    Mocha, just think back to the TPM DVD documenatary (The Begining). One of the first scenes was GL using hilighter pens on all the storyboard shots to indicate what was 'real' and what was 'you guys' (meaning ILM animation). George Lucas is very involved in what is CG and what isn't, with the help of his VFX Supervisors.

    As director, GL is responsible for everything that happens. If I were him, and was paying $140 million, I'd probably supervise a lot of that stuff too.
  17. JarJarIsBoba Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    You tell me which was better.

    AOTC :)

  18. darthlebowski72 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2001
    star 5
    Um, I think amassing 2 MILLION extras would be a nightmare for a casting director and 2 million clonetrooper outfits would have bankrupted AOTC before production even started. :eek:

    Everything looked good to me. They didn't look fake either.

  19. Drason_OBEXX Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 1
    I don't know what kind of viewer has such a worthless hollow head as to blindly watch a film without thinking it through a bit. When I saw those large shots of thousands of clone-troopers marching in the trailer I thought it looked great. I never for one second thought they would be 99.9% CG in the film, including close-ups. If I want to see Final Fantasy I will, but extras in good ole' fashioned suits beats the crap out of these cartoons running around. I believe CG should be reserved for weird aliens and beats out of this world, that's fine. But why replicate humans? It's just disapointing.

    And back to my earlier statement which everyone ignored, do any of you care whether Darth Vader is predominatley a guy in a suit or mostly CG?
  20. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    "you will save money and not insult the audience's intelligence by using CGI where it is necessary (such as Dexter Jettster or Yoda), and not for routine things like control panels and Clonetroopers"

    By the sounds of it the was not much to insult.
  21. Bobo_Butt Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 1
    You will never EVER be able to create a closeup CGI that looks human. What I see in AOTC and other movies is an exaggeration of movement of skin on all the characters, in an attempt to simulate the movement of human skin when turning a head or whatever. the closeup of Yoda and the Stormtrooper(are they called that yet?) looked like a painting. I agree that some Stormtrooper closeups should be done with a costume. The great thing about constructing ships and sets and planets is that there will always be a 3 dimensional texture which will NEVER be able to be replicated EXACTLY by CGI.
  22. Darth-Tom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 4
    If Vader is CG in eppie 3 i will personally mail GL a fart in a bottle.
  23. Rupert_Pupkin2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    Drason_OBEXX,

    I don't know what kind of viewer has such a worthless hollow head as to blindly watch a film without thinking it through a bit.

    You should know because that's exactly what you do with your posts, troll.

    And back to my earlier statement which everyone ignored, do any of you care whether Darth Vader is predominatley a guy in a suit or mostly CG?

    [/ignore]
  24. os2Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 1999
    star 3
    You will never EVER be able to create a closeup CGI that looks human.

    its only a matter of time at this point. i doubt it will take more than 10 years.
  25. Jawa70 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    CGI is cheaper than making 30-40 Clonetroopers. Remember the Documentary 'the Begignning' on TPM DVD? They found out it would be cheaper to make Jar Jar 100% CGI.I seem to remember George was not too pleasd that they had wasted Money on a suit for Ahmed.
    He'd blow a fuse if they had to make loads of Trooper uniforms!
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