Memo to George - An extra in a clonetrooper suit is 1000% better than any CGI creation

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by SoftballWizard388, May 19, 2002.

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  1. mocha1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2001
    star 1
    Don't blame Lucas, blame the folks at ILM for showing George that it could be done 100% in CG.

    Just like Jurassic Park, Spielberg was ready to use animatronics until Muren, Williams, Dippe proved otherwise.

    or Rob Coleman's team showing that a CG Yoda was feasible.

    without these guys we'd be back to puppets and models and the good ol' handpainted matte painting. damn you ILM!
  2. Farrokh1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 2
    'ok, after a second viewing i still say the CG stuff from the last 1/3rd of the film was crap. Total Crap. Like someone said previously, it was like the odd couple, switching from realistic looking things (actual sets/models) to 100% CG. Really terrible. And the worst thing is, it was all so unnecesary. Things didn't need to be so CG. There was no need for Anakin to ride on all the creatures backs (easily the worst shots of the movie). There was no depth, it's was just like looking at moving matte paintings. I dunno, maybe this could have been fixed by staging the arena battle at nighttime. Compare the CG of FOTR to AOTC. PJ used to CG to compiment the movie, GL used the CG to make the movie. You tell me which was better.'

    AOTC's SFX just p#ss on LOTR. AOTC has the best CGI ever. AS much as I love FOTR, i thought the several of the shots looked rough and unfinished and I think the Oscar should have gone to ILM for A.I., pure class. ILM were robbed for Phantom Menace aswell.
    Someone made an excellent point about Spiderman, saying what if the Spiderman that holds MJ was CG, that is how I feel about the close up shots of the Clonetroopers.

  3. DarKnight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2000
    star 2
    Ahh now dont go off against the CGI in Jurassic Park. That was just incredible! I thought that fx was used in a rather creative manner.

    I am all FOR CGI. But in limited doses. And if someone in costume can be used, then by all means do it. However, I think the age of stop motion animation is officially over. I wonder what a Ray Harryhausen film would look like with CGI rather than stop motion?
  4. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The only people who notice or indeed care about the use of CG are those who want to find faults with the film.

    I mean, are realistic CG clonetroopers really inferior to the herky-jerky stop motion tauntauns in ESB or the terrible compositing in the rancor pit in ROTJ or the static rubber masks in ANH?

    Lucas has always pushed special effects technology to its very limits, and the prequel trilogy is no exception.
  5. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
  6. abmccray Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 2
    "I mean, are realistic CG clonetroopers really inferior to the herky-jerky stop motion tauntauns in ESB or the terrible compositing in the rancor pit in ROTJ or the static rubber masks in ANH? "

    You're comparing CG with what was done 20 years ago.

    We're comparing CG with what could be done now.

    There is no way to realistically render a human figure in CG. People complain about Spidey's effects, because, unlike FotR and Episode 1/2, there were no monsters to render, only people (you don't see them complaining about the New York that he was swinging through - only him). Yet, the CG that people find flaws with in Ep2 and FotR are the PEOPLE. We notice something wrong with rendered people immediately (unless you're looking through rose colored lenses) and your brain doesn't recognize it as "real."

    Because of this, Lucas probably should have used it as sparingly as possible when rendering human figures, as the aforementioned movies did. Was there any real reason for some of the CG closeups?
  7. bhusek Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2001
    The trooper that helps Padme, while he looks pretty good, was CG, watch when he runs away, it's like he's floating on air!
  8. BrendanM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    I have to agree with the original post, at least in part. To me, it was painfully, utterly obvious that every Clone was CGI... even in close-up scenes, such as when the Clone walks over and asks a prone Amidala whether she is all right. A person in a suit would have worked better here. The next time you see it, watch that Clone as he walks away... his walk doesn't look natural. It looks *close* but it's not quite right.

    Not that I'm slagging Lucas or his movie... AOTC rocked. But yes, I have to agree that there were a few cases when the CGI was taken just a *tad* too far, and it showed.

    I mean, did they really need to have Anakin slice a CGI pear? Why pay an animator to model, texturize, and animate someone slicing a pear when you can just use a real pear and have it be twice as realistic?
  9. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    It wasn't obvious to me that the clonetrooper who walks over to Padme was CGI. It never even crossed my mind to look. I don't go to a movie looking for stuff to complain about. I go to a movie to be entertained.
  10. BrendanM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    "It wasn't obvious to me that the clonetrooper who walks over to Padme was CGI. It never even crossed my mind to look. I don't go to a movie looking for stuff to complain about. I go to a movie to be entertained."

    I didn't have to look - there it was, in front of my face, as obvious to me as a green sky. I didn't "look" for anything to complain about... as I clearly stated before, I loved the film. I'm simply pointing out that it was there, and remarking that in my opinion, an actor in a suit would have worked better. My philosophy on special effects is, use them because you should, not because you can.
  11. Farrokh1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 2
    Why do some people keep on bringing up the "do you want to go back to stop motion and puppets" response. I ,and most of the other posters here arent bashing AOTCs absolutely incredible CGI, we are just a bit upset about some trooper shots that should have clearly been real people in suits. Even though I loved the film, i felt slightly cheated by the fact that I hadnt seen one genuine clonetrooper(and I still havent, even in behind the scenes pictures- anyone got any.
  12. JAWASTU Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    I have to agree with the opinion that CGi use was taken to a new and unnecesary extreme with AOTC.
    I loved AOTC and the special effects were generally amazing but they weren't by any means perfect. And the seemingly 100% use of digital Clone Troopers is only one of little flaws in there.
    Of course they are only little flaws and I guess that most of the audience would never notice them. However, because I've studied CGi animation and special effects at University, most things tend to jump out at me.
    Did anybody notice the CGi Count Dooku as Anakin and Obi confront him after the Arena battle? (Sorry if someone has mentioned it before, I haven't had time to read every single post here.) Was that completely necessary? I can understand some of the scenes were you see him in the Solar Sailor, because that was digital, but standing still? Perhaps they needed the shot during editing but hadn't filmed it on set and it would have been too expensive to get Lee back in to film two seconds... but...

    Anyway, perhaps I'm jumping in to deep with my first post here so I'll leave it there, JawaStu.

  13. NearysEpiphany Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2002
    star 1
    I tend to think that anyone who says they couldn't tell if the Clonetroopers were CGI or not is playing dumb.
  14. bleh19 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2001
    star 4
    a bit pretentious, are we Neary?

    The only reason I knew they werenot necessarily a real actor is b/c i have followed the making of Ep 2 for the last 3 years.

    Also, no one can post any kind of evidence in favor of either argument.

    People also need to make the destinction between "CG" and digital compositing. IMO, all the clones were done by filming Bodie taylor in a suit then multiplied in the computer and animated w/ motion capture. The clones, IMO, werent "drawn" in the computer,
  15. NearysEpiphany Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2002
    star 1
    Pretentious? Heavens no. Low tolerance for BS? Probably.
  16. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    abmccray:
    Was there any real reason for some of the CG closeups?

    Has it even been established that the close-ups are CG?

    Farrokh1:
    Why do some people keep on bringing up the "do you want to go back to stop motion and puppets" response. I ,and most of the other posters here arent bashing AOTCs absolutely incredible CGI, we are just a bit upset about some trooper shots that should have clearly been real people in suits.

    My point in all this is that you can find something fake in any film you watch. I just don't understand some people's need to break the illusion for themselves then bitterly complain about it afterward.

    As for saying that some troopers should have "clearly been real people in suits", frankly, it's not clear that they weren't.
  17. BrendanM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    To those who are still convinced they were looking at real actors, please let me try once more to assure you that all the clones were CGI. I've been doing computer graphics professionally for years... I've worked with just about everything from Softimage to Alias to Renderman... and when I looked at the Clone Troopers, even in close-up shots, they might as well have had a flashing neon sign on their heads saying, "Hi, I'm a CGI character!" I'm not trying to put the movie down... I LOVED it, and I was completely entertained and didn't let this spoil my enjoyment of the film. I'm simply trying to assure anyone who is confused that yes, the Clones were CGI. It's no big deal... it shouldn't color anyone's opinion of the film either way.

    By the way, as far as whether or not CGI will ever be able to replace a human character - my opinion is no. Yes, it is possible these days to create a static computer image that is virtually identical to the real thing. If you look at the Final Fantasy trading cards, you'll be amazed at how photographic some of the images look. However, it is animation that gives CGI away. Animation still cannot capture the natural look of "real life". If the Clone trooper that had helped Amidala up from the sand had been standing still, he would probably have been indistinguishable from an actor in a real suit. But because he moved, it was apparent that he was animated. That's not a bad thing. It's not a good thing. It just is what it is.

    Like I said, don't let it ruin the movie for you. But just be aware of it. If you want to be aware of it. Or don't be aware of it. It makes no difference.
  18. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I would love to hear an official word on this as self-professed professionals on the internet have been known to get things wrong...from time to time...oh dear...
  19. BrendanM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    "Self-professed professionals"

    If you do something for a living, are paid to do it, are considered by many people to be an authority on the subject, etc. then you are a professional. Would you call Tiger Woods a self-professed professional golfer? Would you call a successful lawyer a self-professed professional attorney?

    I'm not trying to make anyone mad or insult everyone by declaring the clone troopers to be CGI. Why would anyone take some sort of personal offense to this fact? It's just the simple truth... not a good thing or a bad thing, just the simple truth. Why do some folks take offense to that?
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I could tell that the clonetroopers were CGI. I just didn't care.
  21. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I say "self-professed professional" because you have no way of validating your statements except through your own words. I'm not saying you're lying, but I can't rule out the possibility that you are, either. Such is the nature of the internet.

    I mean, I could just as easily tell you that I'm a professional animator and that the clones were all guys in suits. See what I mean? Besides, even if I was a computer animator, that doesn't mean that my word is the final authority on the matter as I could just as easily be wrong.

    All I'm saying is that it is definitely up in the air as to whether they were all CG or not, and the only thing that will settle this debate once and for all is an official statement from Lucas himself.

    P.S. I'm not taking offense as I'm as curious as anybody. However, if anybody does take offense it's because the implication is that Lucas has some how "sold out" by using CGI clone troopers instead of extras in suits. Besides, I say, if it works, then why the hell not?
  22. BrendanM Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    "I mean, I could just as easily tell you that I'm a professional animator and that the clones were all guys in suits. See what I mean?"

    Sure you could! Except that you'd be wrong. :)

    Seriously though, I'm sorry that by pointing out that the troopers were computer animated, I have some how personally affronted you. I didn't mean to.

    The fact of the matter is, I don't know what Lucas will say. It is conceivable that somewhere, at some point, on the set, there was a man in a Clone Trooper costume. Maybe he was there to provide lighting reference to the animators. Maybe he was there to provide a visual cue to the actors. Maybe he was there just in case they needed to have him around. If this is the case, then George Lucas will say, "Yes, there were actors used." However, I know without question, without the faintest, tiniest shadow of a doubt, that the close-up shots of the Clone troopers in the film were CGI, regardless of whatever Lucas's "official statement" ends up being.
  23. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
  24. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    And the thing of it is....not every clone trooper was CGI.

    I have done 3D animation myself, a professional for a little while. I know when it is more cost effective to film several people acting out scenes, and then duping it out, making it look like an active army.

    Jurastic Park was ALSO not 100% CGI. Many of the Dinasourse were animitronics, touched up by digital manipulation.

    Now if you refer to Computer Generated Graphics as anything that was done through the computer...IE, editing, duplicating Clone Troopers, combining matt paintinngs with modles and 3-d animation...

    Well then thats CGI

    But if you refer to just 3 D animation itself...then no, not all the clones were computer graphics.
  25. -Madcap- Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2001
    star 3
    I just don't get people that want to go back to the rubber suits.

    "We don't want realistic aliens, we want rubber suits and puppets."



    How could GL have used guys in suits for THAT many Clonetroopers.

    And i REALLY DIDN'T notice that the closeup Clonetroopers were CGI. I didn't really pay attention to the Clonetrooper that walked up to Padme, i didn't think about it so i didn't notice.

    And you can say i'm BSing all you want, it really must look like i care.
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