MF Ternian Report: The Death of Amidala Skywalker

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Get_in_Gear, Jan 23, 2005.

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  1. Old Juan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 1999
    star 4
    "Interesting. So Yoda and Obi-Wan realize that the Jedi code was only partially correct and that Qui-Gon's philosophy was correct also. Good stuff. I never thought of it like that"


    GL states in the Making of Episode I book that balence is a key issue throughout the saga and that the force itself breaks into two components which are the Living Force and the Cosmic Force..or also known amongst fandom as the Unifying Force. Where the Jedi out of touch with the force in the PT? I think the answer most would agree on is yes, but this includes Qui-Gon as well, he is just simply at the opposite end of the spectrum from the others, that doesn't make him anymore right or wrong then the others. The idea that Qui-Gon was somehow doing it the right way and the other Jedi were wrong in how they view the force flies directly in the face of what GL describes here.

    It was Luke's compassionate and unconditional love for Anakin/Vader that allowed him to come back from darkness and redeem himself. This is precisely the kind of love that the Jedi in the PT era teach despite how many people seem the believe that they don't have a clue as to what love is. Go back and watch AoTC during the Anakin/Padme refugee scene in which Anakin explains the Jedi's philosophy regarding love to Padme. The simple truth of the matter is that Anakin doesn't embrace this lesson. The kind of love the Jedi discourage is the selfish/possesive kind, that kind that can lead people to do bad things as Anakin does. I find it strange that the Jedi are being villified for living unselfish lives in servitude to others.
  2. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    I think the Jedi are supposed to have an outlook like a monk would...

    The Jedi are the wisest because the know the true nature of the force and arent clouded and disillusioned by events and happenings of an everyday life. they are strickly focused on the Force.

    Love is a touchy subject,because the Jedi 'supposedly' never expirience it. but there are MANY types of love. Obi-Wan loved Qui-Gon for example. The Jedi probably know the nature of love better than any other people.

    I always thought of them like kick ass monks...I thought thats how they were supposed to seem...anyone else see them differently? it would be cool to hear perspectives..
  3. MrC123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2004
    star 4
    I just think the Jedi were so afraid to fall to the darkside that they ended up being blind to it completely. The whole, "no emotion and just blindly follow the rules like it's set in stone" attitude made them arrogant. It's like a heavyweight champ getting so accustom to being on top that they let themselves slip, and bam! A new champion. They just believed that if they kept doing what they were doing, everything would be fine. But things change, and the Sith became smarter.
  4. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Look at Mace Windu. In TPM, his whole aura screamed "arrogant" to me. They have shut themselves off from humanity by not allowing certain attachments. After all, all love is "selfish" love from a certain point of view. Heck, from a "certain point of view" Anakin's wish to keep Padme from dying is unselfish because he gives up HIS life unknowingly and thinks he is saving hers, in his mind. It doesn't work out, but it's what he's going for.

    Now, this is an exaggeration, but you see what I'm getting at. Everyone looks at it from their own way. You can't have life with no love. And you can't draw solid lines between compassion or unselfish love/selfish love or attachment. Only the Force can, I bet. ;)

    So, yes, the Jedi have their flaws in that they became arrogant in trusting that what THEY knew best was best instead of what the FORCE knew is best.

    It is, after all, Vader's ATTACHMENT to Luke that saves his life.
  5. Balzuh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    "It is, after all, Vader's ATTACHMENT to Luke that saves his life. "

    Nicely put!
  6. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    But the Jedi dont think they arent loving, they have love for each other, love of the Jedi, love of honor...and all those warm and fuzzys that DONT include a marriage-esque love.

    I think they were so closed off not because they feared losing themselves to the dark side, but losing the force itself. the more of the actual world they expirience, the less and less they can influence the force...

    Jedi are obssessed with the frickin Force, it's their whole reason for existing. to perserve it, to balance it, to maintain it, and to listen to it. without it, they have no frickin clue what to do with themselves except implode

    EDIT:- I utterly agree. I think that thousands and thousands of years of beating the Force into their heards and their lives have made them more detatched from it. they have been over-thinking for to long...

    GOD thats gotta be a record for how many times someone can say the word 'FORCE' in a post...
  7. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    Old Juan - yes, compassion is a basic Jedi philosophy, something all the Jedi are taught. BUT, they are taught a universal compassion, a compassion and general love for everything - not a personal love. They're not allowed to have attachments. There is a difference between attachment and possession. Luke has attachments - he has loving attachments to his friends, to his sister, and to his father - he has relationships with a depth that would have been completely forbidden under the PT Jedi Code. Both Luke an Anakin are Jedi who have deep, personal attachments and relationships - but there's a difference between them. Anakin gets posessive, he can't let go of things, he can't accept change - Luke CAN. When Vader dies, Luke doesn't go mental or turn to the Dark Side - he mourns his father, but accepts he's gone. GL himself says on the commentary that Luke is "letting go of his father" in this scene. Look at Cliegg Lars - he had an attachment and a deep loving bond with Shmi, but he was able to let go, all the same - look at his words in the funeral scene and how they contrast with Anakin. It is possible to have deep attachments, yet still resist the temptations of greed and the Dark Side.

    The Jedi Order's flaw is not that it forbids possession, but that it forbids attachment and deep love of any kind, because it's so scared of possession and what it leads to. Luke shows us that a Jedi can love deeply, can have attachments, yet still be selfless enough to resist the Dark Side. Luke is the culmination of everything the Jedi learn in the saga, from Qui-Gon, from Anakin's mistakes, from the mistakes of the Order itself. Luke is the perfectly balanced Jedi - he is perfectly balanced between compassion and attachment. The Jedi lean too far towards a distant, detatched compassion, because they're scared of the Dark Side - in that way, they lose contact with the Living Force, can't sense the rise of the Sith, and the Force is thrown out of balance. Only Qui-Gon begins to understand the importance of personal, deep, EMOTIONAL love. The Jedi lack emotional love, they have a detatched love - Luke has emotional love, but can still let go of things. That's what makes him the perfect Jedi.

    Yes, there has to be a balance between the Cosmic Force and the Living Force - but Luke has this too. He recognises his wider obligations - "but not at the expense of the moment". The PT Order has lost touch with the Living Force, with life and nature and humanity and love - in this way, it is flawed and wrong, and suffers the consequences of that. Thanks to Qui-Gon's philosophy and forsight, and his unique connection to the Living Force, the Order is able to continue - Yoda teaches Luke in a way that Luke becomes more connected to the Living Force, and to love, and through this enables Anakin to fulfil the prophecy.
  8. MrC123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2004
    star 4
    I think that it's funny that love, which the Jedi avoided because they believed it would lead to the darkside, ended up being the secret to salvation in the lightside of the Force.
  9. Old Juan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 1999
    star 4
    "It is, after all, Vader's ATTACHMENT to Luke that saves his life"

    Actually its Vader's compassion for a son he hardly knows that saves Luke's life. Vader lets go of his attachment to his own life in order to save Luke.
  10. JediRia Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    Very nicely put Rhonderoo :D

    It was his son's love for him that saved him [:D]

    Love the jippor snippet moment...saddest moment ever!
    Someone pass me a hankie :_|

  11. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    it's pretty hard to love a child WITHOUT attatchment or some kind, i mean, you made them (although thats still under debate in Luke's case in some threads) haha

    It will take me until May to get over the Jappor Snippet its so sad! then ill actually SEE it happen, and it will take me another 5 months haha..SO SAD!
  12. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    The Force

    1. The Will of the Force is the Higher Intelligence which guides the creation and functioning of the universe, the wisdom which comes from The Force which is all knowing and understands the need for and cause of all problems and difficulties, and how to heal them.

    2. The Living Force is the life-force energy which flows through every living thing ? plants, animals and people. Beings that have a high number of midichlorians can make contact with the living force.

    The Living Force flows through the physical body via midichlorians. The midichlorians are like a cellular focal point for distributing the Force throughout their hosts bodies. This living force is responsive to thoughts and feelings, and it becomes disrupted or blocked whenever the Jedi consciously or unconsciously accept negative thoughts or feelings. This can occur either by being clouded by the Dark Side or by a Jedi?s own negative thoughts. Being passive and mindful as well as compassionate helps to break through blockages, charging them with positive energy - love and knowledge. It clears and balances the force allowing the life force to flow in a healthy and natural way around the whole body.

    This allows the Jedi?s own natural ability to hear/feel the force, see the future, the past and open the mind, emotions and spirit to an acceptance and understanding of the causative issues which have led to problems and dangers in both the physical and spiritual world. Jedi are guided by The Force. Those that have a higher intelligence and knowledge of the force benefit further. By acting through compassion, a Jedi is following his/her/its(!) own instincts which are given to them by The Force - this is the Will of the Force. Qui Gon always acted through the living force. Due to his compassionate ways the Force used him/was able to use him/lead him as the being whom to identify the Chosen One. Qui Gon acted by what his heart was telling him, his instincts. He could not always see the future, what his actions would lead to, but he trusted the will of The Force. Yoda has the same abilities. The Jedi Master acts through compassion - for his order, all living things and the galaxy. It is because of Yoda?s strong heart and compassionate ways that allow him to speak directly to the force and reach further into it than any other Jedi. Yoda makes contact with Qui Gon due to his compassionate feelings for Anakin.

    With the growing Dark Side the Jedi order is clouded and in some places misguided. Through circumstances created by Darth Sidious the Jedi have been put into a position that has made them make decisions that they would usually avoid. They have become embroiled into fighting for the republic. This could not be avoided but it can be fixed.

    Through the negative events the Jedi continue to be clouded, the force goes further out of balance and the Jedi?s powers diminish. Not being in tune with the Force many Jedi act through arrogance, pride and forget their roles as peace keepers. Compassion goes out the window - like Mace Windu.

    As the Jedi Order falls, it would appear as though Yoda is to blame - after all, he is the master. However this is incorrect. The Jedi have disregarded Yoda?s teachings - intentionally or unintentionally. Mace Windu, epitomises the new ways of the Jedi. He acts recklessly, without compassion (killing Jango without thought for his son - Yoda would never do this), confronting Palpatine aggressively.

    As the Jedi fall, Yoda will doubt his abilities and his code. During his fight with Sidious the Will of the Force will tell him to leave. Yoda, like Qui Gon, trusts the force and its will. By doing this he is NOT losing to Sidious but doing the ?right? thing. When Qui Gon speaks to Yoda he will reassure his old Master that he made the correct decision - after all, the all knowledgeable Yoda is required to train the offspring of the chosen one and that his code was correct. Yoda will doubt his code as The Chosen One falls to the dark side. However, he will realise that Anakin had to turn to the dark side as it was the
  13. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    I see the Jedi themselves as monks although I see they duty the serve to the Republic as sort of a cross between the CIA and the FBI.
  14. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    "It is, after all, Vader's ATTACHMENT to Luke that saves his life"

    Actually its Vader's compassion for a son he hardly knows that saves Luke's life. Vader lets go of his attachment to his own life in order to save Luke.


    I agree here - I think it is compassion that enables Anakin to save Luke, rather than attachment. But there is a difference between the detactched, distant compassion taught by the Jedi, and the personal, deeply loving compassion Anakin feels for his son.


    Luke is the embodiment of the Living Force - someone who can love deeply and dearly, but resisting selfishness and possession. At times there are threats to his attachments, which are dangerous things for a Jedi, who, as GL says, needs to have a clear mind - but Luke is strong enough to overcome his negative emotion, and he never turns to the Dark Side - he resists it. Anakin may be our main character, but Luke is our hero.
  15. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Both Luke an Anakin are Jedi who have deep, personal attachments and relationships - but there's a difference between them. Anakin gets posessive, he can't let go of things, he can't accept change - Luke CAN. When Vader dies, Luke doesn't go mental or turn to the Dark Side - he mourns his father, but accepts he's gone. GL himself says on the commentary that Luke is "letting go of his father" in this scene. Look at Cliegg Lars - he had an attachment and a deep loving bond with Shmi, but he was able to let go, all the same - look at his words in the funeral scene and how they contrast with Anakin. It is possible to have deep attachments, yet still resist the temptations of greed and the Dark Side.

    I think the difference between Luke and Anakin is the way they were taught. Luke is given the freedom to have attachments, they are even encouraged by Obi-Wan in his hutt. And he is then given the freedom to interpret the Force as he sees fit by Obi and Yoda, they have learned from the mistakes the order made with Anakin.

    Anakin was made to feel that attachments and love were "dirty" and of the "darkside", he was freak for feeling them and the EU (and George) talks about how his midis made it SO much easier for him to feel - because of them and his atunement with the Force. I think Yoda and Obi-Wan learn (even if not from Qui-Gon, but from their studies pre-ANH) that it is OKAY to have attachments, just let the Force be your guide. Anakin was left hobbled, until Palpatine gave him the "freedom" to use his anger at the Jedi (because of said inhibitions) to be what he will. Palpatine was one smart cookie, that's for sure.

    Actually its Vader's compassion for a son he hardly knows that saves Luke's life. Vader lets go of his attachment to his own life in order to save Luke.

    No, it is Vader's "compassion" that keeps him from killing Piett, I would say. ;) [face_laugh]

    Make no mistake, from the moment Vader finds out about Luke, there is an attachment. Believe that.



  16. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    either way, the thing that caused anakin to save luke is an emotion or feeling thats forbidden by the Jedi...

    thats was the point I think. that ultimately the Force knows better than anything else, even the Jedi themselves

    edit: i agree roo
  17. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    This is interesting - I've just put on the AotC commentary, in the Tusken Camp scene, and GL talks a bit about attachment and love. Essentially, he says that had Anakin been raised by the Jedi, he'd have been "trained by the Jedi to love things, but not to become attached to them." His attachment to his mother is "for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind - it's a dangerous situation". This adds an interesting twist on that quote, because it seems that in RotS we find out that love IS vital to understanding the true Force, but the Jedi have got it wrong so far. I still believe that the difference is in the level of love taught - the Jedi teach too detatched a love, too distant from the Living Force. What Jedi need to find is the right balance - to love things personally and deeply, even emotionally, as Luke does, but at the same time to accept change and to not try to possess things. It's a very delicate balance, and both the Jedi Order and Anakin have got the balance wrong.
  18. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    wwaahhhhh *cries* dont WE ALL have it wrong when it comes to love!?

    damn you FORCE!

    ;-)
  19. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I dont think the Jedi have it wrong. The message is clouded at this moment in time due to war and the dark side clouding their judgment. But as you say the Jedi are trianed to love.

    Things like marriage have to be forbidden as it leads to possession which leads to fear of losing the possession which leads to anger, hate etc.

    I cant see where this is changed. This stance will just be backed up so Yoda doesnt doubt it and is able to train Luke in the right way and usual way.

    Attachment forbidden. possession forbidden. Compassionate love allowed and central to a Jedi's life. Its always been like this.

  20. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    So how do you explain this spoiler? The point is, there is a difference between universal compassion and personal compassion. Can you imagine Mace or Yoda loving someone in the way Luke loves his father? Or loves Leia? Of course not. Yet Luke is still able to resist possession. He has the balance.

    I see your point, though - it is a messy, tricky area. I think it's simply a case of the Jedi Order distancing themselves too much from the Living Force. They love through the universal Force, but they are out of balance because they do not love through the Living Force, as Qui-Gon does, as Anakin does (way too much, though), and as Luke does (to the right extent).
  21. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    I think this whole 'Anakin has attatchment issues and cant let things go' is on an INDIVIDUAL BASIS, Anakin being that individual.

    Padme *a non-jedi* has to coach Anakin on letting go, learning to accept things and so on. Cliegg Lars let's go of his wife and moves on...Anakin can't.

    It's an idividual flaw thats in Anakin and has nothing to do with him being a Jedi or not. He would have this flaw no matter what. it just hinders him as a Jedi because it so obviously clashes with their rules/standards/way etc...sucks but true

  22. Tion_Meddon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4
    This should help EVERYONE! Anybody who has questions on these spoiler tidbits, READ HERE. All those who hate this theory, and think it wasn't well thought out, and how it diminished Yoda and Obi's characters, READ HERE! It will explain EVERYTHING. (if you're patient reader!)


    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    They have distanced themselves from the people. They serve the government so they are limited to the government, and don't help those outside the Rpeublic, like Tattoine. And the government is corrupt not only because of the Sith influence, but also the Trade Federation, a corporation, has the same rights and power as a planet! Imagine if the Sith really were extinct and there was no Clone Wars, eventually the corporations would grow in power and be able to legally control the government if they outnumbered the planets! The balanc eof powers in the government had been lost.

    And the Jedi SERVE this government, already under the corporations' influence. Mace Windu is the personfication of what the Jedi Order has become: arrogant. I think Qui-gon was a good Jedi Master though, the only true Jedi of the PT so far. In Episode 3 Yoda and Obi-wan come to understand the hard way where the Jedi went wrong, and reform, and think like they do in the OT. The Jedi were too arrogant in their abilities, such as seeing into the future, and are out of balance, which is why they fall, and overconfidence is also why the Sith are destroyed too.

    The Jedi (in the PT, aside from Qui-gon) view themselves as being "above nature". Too concerned with destiny, with the future, with eventually becoming completely beyond nature at death. Too focused on getting to heaven, not at all with living. They view that life is just a prepartion for becoming one with the Force, at death. They believed that if they could fully separate all emotions from their minds and actions it would bring you closer to the Force, and give you more power to do your duty as an enforcer of the Republic, helping people. But they helped people without emotion, helping others was an emotionless duty that had to be fullfilled, it was meaningless. The Jedi were always concentrating on the goal, not the journey, which is here and now.
    [primarily based on Western religions and philosophies]

    Qui-gon was different, and the Jedi in the OT take after his example, as we'll see in ROTS. He saw the value of living here and now, not the future, in the journey, not the goal. He sees heaven IN nature. That the Force is with us now, not just at death, in the future. Not "May the Force be with you" but "The Force will be with you, always" attitude. He had emotion, and a fatherly love for his padawan and for Anakin. "Trust your feeling." He was the first to learn how to retain his idenity in the Force after death. As we can see from the OT, the Jedi Spirits can still interact with nature (like sitting on a log), they are still part of nature, not some angelic beings sent from above. Qui-gon has become the master of knowledge, which is far more valuable than power. He has become the VOICE of the will of the Force. Now the Jedi don't have a code, they must serve the WILL of the Force, not rules set by fellow mortal Jedi or a government.
    [primarily based on Eastern religions and philosophies]



    The Force is Change itself, and only Qui-gon realized this, the only thing you can become attached to is Change itself for also also is affected by its flow, and became the Force by embracing Change at his death, its only constant is LOVE.

    If a Jedi learn to love selflessly towards all, accept any changes that happen, accepting destiny and the Will of the Force, and will continue loving everything selflessly no matter how much it changes, that Jedi will be able to serve the galaxy it loves forever, even after death.

    You see, Anakin loved Shmi and Padme but did NOT want them to change, he wanted the way he knows them frozen FOR HIM forever, very selfish. Against their destinies.

    Luke's love towards his father DOES fit that description. H
  23. tee4jc85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2005
    star 4
    AMEN BROTHA!

    perfect...

    especially how Mace is the living picture of Jedi arrogance, something YODA even pointed out to them in AOTC after Obi-Wan complains of Anakins arrogance.. "yes a flaw we see more and more common in Jedi...even the older, more expirienced ones" *LOOKS AT MACE*


    ...I have to say I still doubt that Qui-Gon manipulated Anakin and Padme's feelings...I would like to believe their love was real and true, and not the result of qui-gon...

    over all, good stuff
  24. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    Tion ...

    =D=

    That's it. The love and compassion taught by the Order is an unemotional one - universal, yes, but unemtional. That's their mistake - it limits their connection to the Living Force, since love and emotion are such a major part of life. Qui-Gon comes to realise that emotion is key to the Force - as long as there is restraint in that Jedi do not give in to possession or greed, and are able to accept that things must change and transition.

    There's a great quote from Anakin in Labyrinth of Evil that almost sums this up:

    "But maybe we're wrong to attach ourselves to the Force at the expense of life as most beings know it, which includes lust, love and a lot of other emotions that are forbidden to us. Devotion to a higher cause is fine and good, Master, but we shouldn't ignore what's going on in front of our own eyes."

    The Jedi may be taught to love things, but they're forbidden to feel the emotion of love. Anakin goes too far and gets too attached to things, but the point he makes here is a sound one. James Luceno obviously knows a lot about RotS, and this quote is probably there to set things up for Qui-Gon's revelation.
  25. DarthMolly Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2005
    star 1
    in AotC Obiwan is concerned about his young padawan & says hes not ready for the assignment of protecting Padme......Anakin is arrogant & too sure of himself. Yoda says yes, like many Jedi including the older more experienced ones, including both Mace & ObiWan. Go back and watch AtoC again. ObiWan is very condescending to Anakin. He has no faith in him, belittles him and is very critical of him. When Anakin pours this out to Padme he kinda looks like a pouting brat but if you think about it, wouldn't we all rebel under such circumstances? Especially since Palps is the only one who praises him and tells him how wonderful he is.
    A few scenes later when Padme & Anakin are eating & talking she asks him about being a Jedi how hard it must be to give up everything - not going to the places you want & he says not being with the people he loves. She says "Are you allowed to love?" Anakin says attachments/possessions are forbidden but compassion (unconditional love) is central to a Jedi and is encouraged. But I don't see no love in AotC. Where is the love? LUke was allowed to love in OT and that love brought his father back from the dark side. Anakin/Vader finally had the love he was never 'allowed' to have & it brought the 'good' side back.
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