Clone Wars Micro-series vs. TCW

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Togruta, Nov 14, 2012.

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Which Clone Wars show do you like better?

Clone Wars (2003) 67 vote(s) 37.6%
The Clone Wars (2008) 111 vote(s) 62.4%
  1. Feng Shui Engine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2013
    star 1
    It really depends on what each person is looking for. For me, it's TCW all the way. And it's not just because its CGI (which, fyi, looked phenomenal by the end of the series). I adored the Tartakovsky series, but if you're looking for great stories, character depth etc, it's definitely not the show where characters might speak one line of dialogue in a 3 minute episode.

    If there's anyone here who hasn't even seen The Clone Wars past the crappy movie, or at all, don't be a stubborn old internet fuddy-duddy and give it a fair shot. And if you've only seen a few episodes of Season 1 and still aren't impressed, I implore you to keep on watching. It gets so, so, so much better.

    Also, I too found Ahsoka annoying as hell...at first. She really grew on me by the end of the show. In season 1, she's a whiny, snippy little smart-ass. By season 3, not so much. Also, in season 3 there's a 2-3 year time skip, and when we next see her she's far more mature and battle weary. By season 5, she's also pretty friggin' deadly; she didn't hesitate to decapitate 4 people's (yes, people, not droids) heads at once (yes this happened) to get out of a hostage situation.
    Last edited by Feng Shui Engine, Jul 29, 2013
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm exactly the opposite. I loved her in the first two seasons; I love me a good feisty and snippy smartass. To me that was her best quality; I think Anakin wasn't used to someone who could match him in that department, and the WTF? expression on his face when he realized she could out-snip him was priceless. [face_laugh]

    Starting with either the Assassin episode or the Citadel arc, she made me want to go through my TV screen every time she appeared as well as every time one of the other characters appeared on screen singing her praises.

    And decapitating four people at once should be reserved for Asajj Ventress.

    But yeah, Ahsoka definitely falls under my STFU-canon. No micro series character did.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jul 29, 2013
  3. Feng Shui Engine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2013
    star 1

    I don't mind smartass-ness, but not when it's served with a side of whiny. Fortunately, she was way less whiny by the end of season 1, which is when I started to like her.


    Well, considering how little dialogue there was in the series, there wouldn't be much room for anyone in it to "STFU"...

    :D
    Last edited by Feng Shui Engine, Jul 29, 2013
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Exactly. ;)

    I thought there was enough dialogue in the micro series, and better to have less dialogue than to have a lot of it along the lines of, "If it weren't for Ahsoka the day would have been much worse" or "Does anyone care what the Padawan thinks?"
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jul 29, 2013
  5. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    I had in all my years never seen the restricted time formula that was placed on GT. Family Guy, Robot Chicken, and Star Wars Lego weren't given that and neither were the Droids and Ewok cartoon series. The Nelvana 11 minute movie interlude (Holidy Special) was different and I don't count it in this. Despite the shortness, the cartoon was succesful for the cartoon network. It was action filled and despite the time constraint was quite good. Kids in my neighborhood at the time really liked. It was also great that it won several awards because at the time, the prequels werent getting good publicity. Yeah they made money, but like football players that broke records and never won the big prize, it neve really got the respect that the OT and many other movies have gotten. (Titanic, Avatar, Avengers, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, to name a few.)
    TCW had more time....in some cases too much time, had better production and story conferences and had the big man involved in almost all the episodes and it only got one Emmy win. Okay, some say awards are biased...maybe they are...maybe they are not. If they are, then this show got a sentimental Emmy becasue the show got cancelled, it it isn't, then its because season 5 with the WAC arc included was very damn good. Take your pick. TCW was crap at the begining. Both the movie and season 1 (despite large vewing numbers) were not good. Season 2 definitely got better. The beginig of season 3 was half and half depending on whom you talk to. I rememeber on the boards many bashed the crap of the political episodes, but even those that did failed to grasp that this series needed all types of episodes becasue of the scope of story it was trying to tell.
    The true improvement for the series came from the second half of season 3 and beyond. Those last 53 episodes showed that this series was heading in the right direction. Some will disagree, but I'll pit those 53 episodes against any of the other stuff out there. If I'm upset that this show was cancelled, is becasue like wine, this show was coming to its own with age, and I also was looking forward to the movie tie in and beyond. Of course we all know that the bonus content will be amazing, but the question that begs to be asked is when are they going to come with it, if they come out with it, bring out as many episodes as possible, and hopefully the equivelant and more of what season 6 would look like at least to hold fans over till Rebels start coming out. Whatever was not done and cannot be addded to Rebels, then give it to Dark Horse and let them do seasons like Buffy the Vanpire slayer. Buffy showed that something like this hybrid can be done with extreme success. We all know from the numbers that for several years the Buffy comics were in the Top 100 best sellers, more than any of the star wars comics.
    So if I compare the two, I'd give it to the micro due to originiality, but that dosen't mean that I do not like and consider TCW to be very good. We all know that the voice acting in the series is the best we have seen almost anywhere. Unfortunately, TCW can't compete with Bart Simpsoms, Family Guy, Robot Chicken, American Dad, The Cleveland Show, Spongebob, and other 2-d shows. Most kids that I've talked to do not like TCW at all. I also need to point this out because I've argued this with some of you but some of the stories if TCW while very good, are not good to other shows for some reason. That Adventure Times is a big example, most kids like that show than TCW and the awards have been generous to that show as well. For the bonus content, they have to release a lot of stuff. If they come back with just 15 episodes. Why bother, becasue it dosen't really change or add to the status quo in my opinion.
  6. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    One thing that bothered me about the final volume of the microseries was the inconsistencies with Labyrinth of Evil. Two stories depicting the exact same events, with some overlap resulting in these inconsistencies. For instance, in LoE, Shaak Ti and Stass Allie are working together to protect the Chancellor, but Allie doesn't even appear in the microseries. Also, neither of them actually cross blades with Grievous nor encounter him face-to-face in LoE, as I recall, but in the microseries Shaak Ti does bump into Grievous just as the latter is about to take the Chancellor away. Minor details, but still inconsistent (and I realize there are plenty of inconsistencies regarding TCW and the EU, but they are on different tiers of canon). I tend to prefer the battle as depicted in LoE over the microseries; it has both Kit Fisto and Mace Windu battling Grievous atop a maglev train. How cool is that? And FWIW, Grievous kills like six Jedi Knights, including Master B'ink Utila, in the bunker housing the Chancellor. Grievous only killed two or three Knights during the battle in the microseries.

    And why did he decide to spare Shaak Ti's life? Sure, he stole her lightsaber, but wouldn't it be more of an accomplishment to kill a Jedi Council Master instead of what he actually ended up doing to her...
    Tongue-in-cheek mild NSFW comments (open)

    [IMG]
    Yeah. From what I understand, the Wook says Grievous wanted her alive to act as a warning to the other Jedi, but I always got the impression that he loved killing Jedi above all else. Why do this? Does Grievous have a bondage fetish? Maybe that explains why he would keep stun net cables on his person...

    Perhaps this is what spawned the numerous Shaak Ti x Grievous slash pairings I keep finding on the Internet when looking for Grievous vs. Shaak Ti pictures? [face_worried]

    So there. That probably sums up why I prefer LoE's depiction of the Battle of Coruscant over the microseries'.
    Last edited by Circular_Logic, Jul 30, 2013
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  7. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    I like TCW's depiction of the Battle of Coruscant over.....oh wait.....
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm actually glad TCW didn't touch that one. Ahsoka probably would have discovered Sidious' identity or something.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
  9. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    Don't think Filoni would have been that dumb
  10. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The micro-series had bad voice acting but TCW didn't? Well, you confused me there since a large number of the principle cast was carried over from the micro-series, including James Arnold Taylor, Tom Kane, Terrence Carson, and Corey Burton. And of the characters to appear in both series, the only character to have a significantly improved vocal performance was Asajj Ventress under Nika Futterman, who still admitted to taking a few cues from Grey DeLisle's micro-series portrayal, and Matt Lanter's Anakin, who severely struggled in the early days with portraying a serious character aware of the gravity of the war he was in.

    I'm going to overlook your droid comment because it's simply not worth addressing. Instead, let's look at the claim of a series that did not focus on story. Frankly, you couldn't be more wrong. The micro-series, as the name implies, was allotted an extremely limited timeframe for its run. Concessions in regards to depth and slow subtlety were required in order to better fit the given format, so a more broader and stylized epic take was required to tell the stories that needed to be told. Looking at the entirety of the Battle of Muunilist arc in comparison to the Second Battle of Geonosis arc, there's really very little difference to be found. An attack on a Separatist stronghold world, an intense, heated launch into enemy territory spearheaded by gunships, a drag-out ground battle, small-scale superweapons, a slightly out there scifi villain... there's really very little difference in the scope of the story, just the length of time and the animation being used to tell it. TCW was given longer episodes, and even multi-episode arcs to tell epic stories, and yet often squandered that precious resource. The micro-series was clawing for every second, and yet managed to add soft subtlety to the reunion of Anakin and Padme during the Outer Rim Sieges, and stretched it's scope to planetwide levels during the Battle of Coruscant in minutes, something TCW struggled to do with nearly an hour.

    Which brings me to the point of Durge and Ventress. Ventress and Durge are complicated characters whose full histories would have been unreasonable to portray in the length of time the micro-series had available. Even Sidious, the greatest villain of the movie saga, had his onscreen backstory essentially narrowed to "Evil Sith politician," much like Ventress was "Dark Side Apprentice" and Durge was "Armored Separatist Warrior" for the duration of the micro-series. And yet, Star Wars is a grander collaborative effort that goes beyond the scope of any one work, and as part of the collective "Clone Wars Multimedia Project," it wasn't the micro-series' responsibility to hash out the backstories of Durge and Ventress, it was Dark Horse's responsibility to handle that in Republic. The micro-series' only job was to portray the proper characterization, and represent them both as effective villains in a badass manner, consistent with the format style they were using.

    If you're going to use that specific proverb, it very much does matter, because to get the phrasing wrong ruins the metaphor. And when you have to offer a subsequent explanation, or rely on your given audience to suss out what you intended, counter to the statement you personally offered, the point of using such a metaphor is completely shot to hell and you'd be better off not using it in the first place. It only results in making you look foolish.
    Contessa likes this.
  11. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I think the voice acting comparison works like many or most of the comparisons between these two series: on average, the micro-series is best because it was so short it never had time for a dip in quality, and as a whole, TCW is sometimes better and sometimes worse than the micro-series.
  12. SithLordPat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 4

    This discussion can't really be summed up much better than that. It really comes down to taking it for what it is. On a grand scale, TCW wins. But for an epic scaled down to a poem, the micro-series is money.
  13. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    Well, I didn't say TCW wins. I do prefer TCW personally but the logic I laid out above doesn't necessarily lead to that conclusion, which is part of my point.

    To elaborate a little on the actual subject matter: the voice acting in the micro-series is generally pretty good, there isn't anything terribly bad or anything that superb; the voice acting in TCW probably has worse voice acting than the micro-series on average, but along with having parts that are worse than anything in the micro-series, it also has parts that are better than anything in the micro-series. I think some of Obi-Wan's really emotional voice acting in TCW is definitely a notch more intense than the micro-series (which is more intense in a frantic rather than dramatic way) in my opinion (and Anakin, but not as reliably) and Palpatine is easily better on average and in his best moments in TCW. So overall I'd say TCW in general and with the voice acting. Still love both.
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  14. Shadow_imperium Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2004
    To me it's an apples to oranges kind of thing, yeah they share...and retcon...the same time frame and subject, but to me they don't fit into the same category.

    CW though made as a mini/micro series can be watched as a movie, or movies. Although CW has stand alone stories and a few different plots, it has a clear timeline and is pretty self contained. TCW is what it is, a t.v. series that is wide ranging (for better or worse) and could jump around and bring back many elements from previous episodes.

    That all being said, I voted for CW. It's far from perfect but it's still a fun 2 hours. I was a fan of Samurai Jack so the style doesn't bother me, and the over the top battle scenes...mostly Mace's can be glanced over, hell I even think of it as what the boy thought he saw. I'm not even the biggest PT or that era fan, I just can't help but like CW. Now aside from the whole Anakin having an apprentice (why Ahsoka couldnt have been someone else's and later made into a leading character I'll never know) I don't hate TCW there's many episodes I really enjoy, especially the ones that had the OT bounty hunters. I do however have more than a few I really dislike or just don't care for; I swear during the Corruption episode if they said the word corruption one more time I was going to ram my head into my coffee table, '80s anti-drug psa's were more subtle.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I actually didn't mind Anakin having an apprentice once I got past the "Who the **** gave Anakin an apprentice?" question. But I would have liked her better if she had stayed Anakin's apprentice and if her importance had remained in how she affected his character development, as opposed to taking over the show.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
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  16. Delta289 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2013
    so, looking back on some of the older posts, allot of people were dumping on CW's 2D animation compared to TCW's 3D animation.


    Must I remind you people that all of CW's animation is hand drawn (with the exception of some of the spaceship flyby shots that they outsourced to companies like Rough Draft)? Yeah, eventually it all goes into a computer but... just watch this video, it can better explain what I'm trying to say.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/uV9LvVb84xo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    If the embed cmmand didnt work then you can view the video here:

    Am I asking you to give up your strongly embedded delusions that TCW is better then CW? No, all I'm asking is that you remember that these episodes are hand drawn and to show some respect for those guys who stayed up into the wee hours of the night making sure quality entertainment was brought to your television screens every Friday night at 8:00pm eastern pacific/7:00pm central. Also keep in mind that these guys were working on a tight schedule (even in the second season when they were granted a longer run-time) and they had many more stories they wanted to tell but couldn't. But hey, they got the basic story down pat; Anakin starts off as angry and disobedient, eventually rises to be worthy of a Jedi knight (unlike in the new series where he just starts off as a knight, which is completely undeserved given his behavior in AOTC), transcends the master-student relationship with Obi-wan and remain good friends, and most importantly, we see his character evolve. Even if you didn't grow up with the original series, and are now/were growing up with the recent clone wars series, still show some respect for your predecessors. Arguably, TCW wouldn't exist without CW.

    I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter for seeing 6 years (2002-2008) of established canon from books, comics and videogames that I grew up with being callously cast into the realm of non canon by 1 TV series (that wasn't even all that good and was way too over hyped in my personal opinion), but I still think the original clone wars series deserves a little more respect then it gets nowadays. Its bad enough that its been completely forgotten, seriously go on Google images and search just "Clone Wars" you wont find much from the original series.
  17. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I wouldn't call those who like TCW over CW delusional, it's a matter of personal preference. And to be fair, the TCW crew likely had to stay up until the wee hours of the night many times as well. TCW wasn't necessarily easier to produce just because it was made on a computer. Ships, worlds, characters, etc all have to be designed and rendered, among other things. Not to mention the time put into the audio mix, which was far more complex than that of CW. (I'm a former sound engineer - I can honestly say what they did in the time they had is pretty impressive.)

    Personally, I think they are both works of art from a production standpoint. The CW might not be one I'd watch in the theater, but it is still impressive, especially for it's time. From a story stand point, I think CW was pretty consistent in producing good story lines where TCW was more hit or miss. I enjoy them both, for what they are.

    As for the canon stuff, I haven't read many of the books or any of the comics, so I can't speak for them.
    Last edited by KenobiSkywalker, Aug 18, 2013
  18. Delta289 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2013

    I'm not calling all TCW fans delusional, just the ones that think TCW is substantially better than CW. But hand drawn is way more difficult then computer modeling mainly because tools like copy/paste, mirror, offset, and other tools that you find in the most basic modeling software (i use Blender for my Star Wars: Empire at War mod and programs like Autocad and Revit everyday for school). I know from experience that the existence of these tools that, no doubt exist in the modeling software TCW used, can save hours of work. You don't get those tools when your drawing with pencil and paper, trust me i wish they did, that would have made my AR-102 class loads easier.

    As for the sound, In the director commentary Genndy explains the sound limitations of TV at that time (Im assuming networks had stricter sound limitations 10 years ago then they have today) which i just so happen to have uploaded here: http://www.moddb.com/groups/clone-w...-wars-chapters-12-14-with-commentary#imagebox

    He explains it in the episode but I can also remember Derek Bachmen explaining more in one of the chapters from volume 2.

    And i'ts not like I don't get why people are so impressed by the CGI, I do. Its just that we've been spoiled by CGI for the past 20 years that people cant appreciate traditional animation anymore and it saddens me.
    cwustudent likes this.
  19. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Or, we could just not call any fans "delusional". ;)
  20. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Yes, there are tools like copy and paste. But they still constantly made new environments, and while they could still copy from previous works, a lot of it still had to be made from scratch. Hand drawn may be more complicated, but that doesn't mean TCW's crew didn't put in a lot of hours either.

    His sound comment is about compression, that hasn't changed between then and now. It's there because of bandwidth limitations and to prevent advertisers from increasing the volume more than they already do. Most people's home sound systems wouldn't reproduce a lot of that content if it weren't compressed and rolled off anyways. My point was TCW's mix was significantly more complex and complete.
  21. Delta289 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2013
    Now its just taking 1 word that i said and stretching it out of proportions to distract from the other things i said. maybe "delusions" wasn't the best choice of word and I apologize and i'll edit it to opinions.

    But I still stand firm on the other valid points I made.


    EDIT: it appears that I cant edit previous posts after a certain amount of time, but if I could I would do the stated above.
    Last edited by Delta289, Aug 19, 2013
  22. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    @Delta289 I'm a big TCW fan so I don't agree with you on that stuff, but I'm with you all the way on the micro series. I love it all.
    KenobiSkywalker likes this.
  23. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    Just recently re-watched (for the first time in years) both DVD's of the Clone Wars Micro-series. Wow - what incredible animation. It had been so long since I had seen them that I had forgotten quite a bit, but some highlights include:

    - All of the Space battles - truly incredible.

    - All of the battles on Coruscant.

    - Super-human Mace Windu taking out huge droid armies with his bare hands & lightsaber ;)

    - Seeing the Max Rebo aliens.

    - The Jedi trying to save Palpatine from Greivous, and his subsequent abduction - all leading into Episode III.

    - Seeing the Droid army land on Kasshyyk, witnessed by Chewie (or another Wookie) and his son; obviously strongly reminiscent of the Droid army landing on Naboo in TPM.

    -
    Last edited by Blur, Aug 24, 2013
  24. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    Aw that Bridging the Saga video.. Makes me pine for more micro-series, or at least another 2D series. Genndy and his crew were so into it.
    spicer likes this.
  25. Darth Kickass Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2013
    star 2
    I've always considered the micro-series to be part of the saga just as well as the 3D series. They don't conflict with each other or the movies. I think some people get bent out of shape because of the conflicts created by the authors of the EU material in relation to certain characters' fates. In my opinion the visual media is what should be considered canon. I love a good book but when it comes to Star Wars I want some eye candy!