Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Togruta, Nov 14, 2012.
Don't let anyone else see this
Don't conflict with the movies or each other? Hoho, buddy, Hold on to your butts because here comes everything that's wrong with what you just said.
lets take the clones for example: "They are totally obedient, taking any order without question..." Prime Minister Lama Su (not keen on the spelling of his name) in Episode II ATOC. All throughout TCW we see clones deserting, betraying, and refusing to carry out commands. Now in, I think it was the 3rd or 4th season, they made a series of episodes following a group of Clone Troopers receiving ARC Trooper training (witch is preposterous in the first place because all clones are born into their rank. if your bread to be a private, your a private, if your bred to be a commander your a commander, etc. ARC Troopers, Commanders, and Commandos receive less genetic modification then your standard infantry clone trooper so they are capable of making better command decisions). In one episode of the story arc one of the "genetic misfit" clones explained that they had to stretch Jango's DNA. That's a perfectly viable explanation except for one thing; They moved Anakin's knighting and thus the entire span of the series from 19BBY to 22BBY immediately after the battle of Geonosis so that they could make more episodes and thus more money. That would make ALL the clones you see in the first 3 seasons of the show (because if I recall correctly they deployed the Phase II clones in season 4) the same batch of clones deployed at the time of the Battle of Geonosis. So the half assed explanation as to why the clones deserted, betrayed, and refused to follow direct orders from a Jedi general, would only cover the disobedient clones in the Umbara episodes. As for the traitor and deserter episodes, sorry that explanation is not applicable.
Now let's talk about Darth Maul for a second. This Isnt so much of a Movie contradiction as it is Mr. Lucas contradicting himself. I recall reading a quote on wookieepedia (if i can end up locating it I'll post it) by Mr. Lucas detailing his distaste for EU authors resurrecting characters that he killed off in his films. The 13 page comic "Old Wounds" (published in 2005 if i remember correctly) was cast into the realm of Non-Canon because it resurrected Darth Maul. Then, approx 6 years later, he goes about resurrecting Darth Maul in TCW. Now, was it Lucas's idea to resurrect Darth Maul? I Cant say, but if it was someone else who suggested it, why didn't Mr. Lucas stop them? Now, I Know his daughter wrote the whole Savage Oppress thing but I don't know if she called for Darth Mauls resurrection in it. I don't know, I honestly think Mr. Lucas began to care less about certain aspects of his franchise and his integrity towards the last years of his ownership but that's just my speculation.
As for your claim that CW is 100% compatible with TCW; hold on to your butts because their are several contradictions between the 2 series. Alright lets start off with the span first. Originally, TCW was set in 19BBY after Anakin was knighted to fill in a gap left by the original Clone Wars series in Chapter 21 witch Genndy represented with a 2 minute montage of Anakin doing heroic deeds. However, they decided to move TCW to take place immediately after the battle of Geonosis in Episode 2 Attack of the Clones leaving about a 2 month gap between Geonosis and "Cat & Mouse". Leeland Chee then moved all of the sources of the previously established timeline that were not reticonned as a result of TCW (I.E. Star Wars: Obsession: Coruscant Knights, etc) and compressed them into this 2 moth span. This squeezes 21 of the 25 Chapters of the Original Clone Wars series into that 2 moth span witch is preposterous because some of the battles in the series and most of the battles in the Dark Horse comics took well over a month to resolve (The battle of Jabiim being a prime example). The remaining 4 chapters of the series as well as MOST of the dark horse comics taking place after Anakin's Knighting, remain in their original 19BBY positions. It's not really a contradiction per-say but TCW is still squeezing all of its predecessors including most of the original series into that unrealistic 2 month span.
Next we move on to the Starfighter issue. In the original Clone Wars Series (I refuse to call it the miniseries because despite being short, a mere 6 years ago it covered most of the clone war), Anakin receives his Eta-2 star-fighter IMMEDIATELY after his Knighting ceremony on Coruscant. In TCW however, Anakin flys a generic, unmodified Delta 7B starfighter (why they had to make a whole new Jedi starfighter witch is essentially the same thing as a regular Delta-7 Jedi except the astromech is moved from the starbored side to the center of the craft, We'll never know). We don't even get to see Eta-2 star-fighters in TCW they were supposedly in season 6 but thank goodness for Disney (yeah the shut-down Lucasarts but at least they put an effective end to TCW's rampage on the timeline, I only wish they could have done it sooner and maybe save at least Star Wars: Obsession but I digress). So that's a blatant contradiction between the 2 series.
Next is the deployment of the Phase II Clones. In the original Clone Wars Series, the next wave of clones, this time dawning brand spanking new Phase II clone armor, are deployed shortly after Anakin's knighting ceremony. In TCW however, it takes 3 seasons (witch represent about a little under 2 years of the war according to new cannon) until we finally get to see the clones wearing their Phase II armor. Also disputed is Commander Cody's arrival into the war but that's a contradiction between TCW and the Star Wars: Republic comics so I wont touch up on that.
Last But not least: Asajj Ventress. In the original Clone Wars series and it's corresponding source books, Ventress hails from the gladiatorial world of Rattatak witch is engulfed in constant war as (according to Star Wars: Republic: No Man's Land) the strongest warriors gather supporters and wage war with other great warriors for control of the planet. After her parents were killed by a rising warlord, a Jedi named Ky Nerrek arrives on the world as a part of a peacekeeping mission and discovers the Force Sensitive Ventress and takes her as his padawan. After Nerrek is murdered by the same warlord who murder's Ventress's parents she ends up raising her own army and eventually takes Rattatak as her own. In the original Clone Wars Series, Dooku arrives on Rattatak to attend one of its many arena battles in search of a powerful Dark Acolyte to join his ranks, It is then we are introduced to Ventress. Although Ventress's species is not specified in the series, all of the source books written before 2008 and the fact that she was found on Rattatak, identify her as Rattataki. Then TCW comes along and changes her species to Dathomirian Witch (which is not a Species by the way, any force sensitive female can become a Dathomiran witch, in fact in old canon Dathomirian witches were descendants of prisoners as Dathomir was a Republic prison colony). Yes TCW shows a flashback acknowledging her time on Rattatak but it does no justice to the fact that they changed her species.
There are a few more minor contradictions between CW and TCW but these are the big four.
Oh, you'd like the Even Piell Centre for Canon and Continuity Catastrophes.
Still, canon issues shouldn't play a part in deciding which series is better. That's just silly.
I wasn't trying to sway people to the side of the original clone wars series, I was simply correcting the gentlemen who said that the shows don't conflict with the movies or each other.
And even if I were, your exclamation that its a silly basis on witch to judge the show is your own opinion. Some people who care about the integrity of the overall story of Star Wars would consider it a factor.
@Delta289 your WOT is interesting but I didn't read the whole thing. Are there any continuity conflicts you've found if you only look at the two series and not the EU?
The Eta-2 was in Season 5. Anakin and Ahsoka were riding in them when Anakin got knocked out in flight and Ahsoka rescued him at the beginning of Sabotage.
I voted for the Micro-Series, and I'm not even finished watching it. I just cut it on, and 10 minutes in, it's already much more exciting than the 2008 show.
However, I love the resurrection of Maul in the 08 series, I love the Mortis Arc, and I like characters like Cad Bane. The story was better in 08. The visuals from the 2003 series are much more appealing. So far, it's a lot of fun. Non-stop action.
There were definitely some darker themes in the 2008 series, which I truly enjoyed. Also the Maul/Oppress vs Sidious duel is magnificent.
Maybe after I finish watching the entire Micro-Series, I can make a better assessment, but so far, it's got me hooked.
There were a LOT of episodes in the 2008 series that I flat out skipped over. I don't really like Anakin's padawan as a character, she just annoys me for whatever reason. Also Anakin repeatedly calling her "Snips" is terrible, LOL.
I remember when Lucasfilm released the pilot into theaters as a movie, I saw it, and I thought it was the worst installment of Star Wars yet (aside from the Holiday Special). It was so off putting that I didn't watch the Clone Wars 2008 show in it's entirety until earlier this year, when it stopped running on TV. I was very highly surprised by how good it was, in certain spots. It has it's highs and it's lows.
All in all, I enjoy both series'. It's all Star Wars, so I'm gonna watch it, either way.
I did not watch season 5 to be honest. After the whole resurrecting Darth Maul thing I just could not bear to watch it anymore. After season 2 when they ruined the Mandalorians I was only watching the series to see if they would fix their mistakes. When this show came along I thought they would create new stories within the established timeline not overwrite it completely with something far more inferior the the Clone Wars Multi-Media Project (all of the old clone wars comics, videogames, novels, and the miniseries were apart of this project).
regardless, the digression of when Anakin gets his Eta-2 is still present. The Issue is not if the eta-2 appeared in the 2008 series, the issue is when Anakin received his Eta-2
Fast forward to Anakin's Knighting and you can see he gets his Eta-2 shortly after his ceremony (I apologize for the low quality but this is the only one i could find for chapter 21 specifically)
Thats what I was explaining, the compatibility issues between the 2 series. Go back and read the 2nd paragraph. The first paragraph contains conflictions with George Lucas's films and the 2nd paragraph contains the compatibility issues between CW and TCW
TCW vs films:
I don't think you should take every word that Lama Su said so literally. He's basically a salesman. A longer answer is: on the battlefield, those men, not clones, face situations that affect them individually. Furthermore, each Jedi general is unique, and their teachings/leadership would influence the clones differently (contrast Rex and Cody).
And as for Maul, George Lucas can do whatever George Lucas wants to do with his own characters. He decided that Maul did not die. Maul was not resurrected.
TCW vs CW:
I read your posts about Anakin's Jedi fighter. Its a minor detail. You could write a fan-fic that explains this discrepancy, or you can get some sleep at night. I recommend the latter.
Delta, know what about the fighter issue? I'd choose to blame the Micro Series for that. It's not because I hated it, but it made utter nonsense for the Republic to get everything upgraded when ONE JEDI (Anakin) is knighted. It's not that Anakin is knighted and the Ship Companies gave the Republic all brand new ships (Venators, Arc-170s, Eta2). No, the technological development in TCW made more sense. And the Republic abandoned their V-19s immediately after getting the ARCs in the Micro-Series, are they THAT rich to do that? No, just no. And don't judge season 5 just because they resurrected Maul in S4, I hate that at first to be honest. But after seeing the arc, it blew my mind. I actually prefer to watch "The Lawless" alone than the entire Micro-Series.
All I'm saying is I'll put my CW volume 1 & 2 right next to my TCW series box set and Ep. 1-9 Blue ray collection
Finally a true fan who loves every Star Wars things.
Not the "true fan" argument again.
I still say anyone who hasn't endured the Holiday Special isn't a true fan.
Not resurrected? someone or something had to revive him. Nobody just gets cut in half, fall down a seemingly bottomless reactor shaft, manage to climb out of that reactor shaft (without the use of legs) and magically transport himself to Raxus Prime.
Also it wasn't Mr. Lucas who wrote the whole Savage Opress story it was his daughter
You people are straying away from my main point. I was simply correcting the gentlemen who claimed that the series didn't conflict with one another and all of a sudden you have me on the cross because I happen to to mention some expanded universe in my explanation and that's some sort of crime around here for some reason. (when ironically TCW is EU)
Never, ever ,ever did Genndy or I suggest that the massive wave of new technology being deployed within the Grand Army Of the Republic was simply because Anakin was Knighted. 19BBY was the beginning of the third year of the war and the people of the republic were getting antsy, You wanna wrap a war up quickly? release a bunch of new technology to turn the tide of the battle.
Never did Genndy or I suggest that Venators, ARC-170s, V-wings, etc came immediately after Anakin was knighted, Only the Eta-2's
And for your Information the Galactic Republic spans thousands of star systems and each of them are taxed, so yeah the Republic's coffers are rather vast making your blatant assumption (if it were true witch it is most certainly not) possible.
I think it's fair to say Maul had to be resurrected in a sense...but it's also true that *(after the retcon) he never died.
Yeah, Maul was kinda resurrected in terms of story production. But since it has Lucas' approval, in his story Maul never died.
My two biggest problems with the micro-series even as a kid was the 5-minute episodic running time and the general OPness of the War itself.
For the former, I remember when the show first came out. I, nor none of my friends, who were all big SW fans anyway, could grasp the concept of a 5-minute run-time. We'd make fun of the idea constantly and follow up with a sped-up version of the SW theme to imitate how they might do the opening crawl in each episode. The fact that the episodes only lasted 5 minutes and ended before you could get into it, made the show a nuisance to try to keep up on at the time. It wasn't until the entire combined seasons showed up on YouTube that I was able to sit down and watch the entire series. The online season compilation actually improved the viewing experience for me. Rather than having the effect of taking one of the movies and chopping it up into 5 minute segments, I was able to actually watch the series play out as it should: one event leading into the next without interruption.
The latter was more of something that I didn't like rather than my friends. From Mace Windu single-handedly taking out not only an entire legion of droids, but their big sandstorm causing weapon too just wasn't something that appealed to me. On both sides, the giant sandstorm machine, and Windu, they both seems distastefully "awsurm!". There wasn't the sacrificial charm behind it that was in TCW or the movies. In TCW and the movies, each battle saw emotional losses. Whether it had been Biggs being shot down or the loss of Waxer to friendly-fire, you felt the emotional terrors of battle. The battles in the micro-series, while showing some of the more grotesque sides of war (bugs for lunch), were more or less sterile. You didn't gain any sort of emotional attachment for any of the characters beyond Anakin and Obi-Wan. Then there was Durge, the unstoppable juggernaut that was blown to pieces. His OPness got on my nerves and I rather wished he had never been in the micro-series in the first place. His "destruction" was strung out, and it truly seemed like he had been included into the micro-series just for something to chuck thermal detonators at. Grievous was another OP villain that I didn't like in the micro-series. I actually didn't like his character at all until his portrayal in TCW. His portrayal as a fearsome military commander was much more enticing to me than a lightsaber helicopter.
I don't see Durge as much different than say, Obi-Wan fighting Grievous in RotS. Was Grievous even a necessary character in the film? Star Wars isn't shy of bringing on monsters and awesome battles just for the sake of it. And I think the micro-series did a better job with it than TCW. Much more variety and creativity. But TCW has its moments.
Read The Sith Hunters.
I absolutely refuse to purchase anything related to the new series. I don't want my money to go to Dave Filloni so he can destroy more of this once great saga.
Just tell me what happens so I can loose more faith in this franchise and humanity.
Sure thing. Maul falls down to the bottom of the reactor shaft and is sucked down a drain into a waste disposal capsule, which is then transported off-planet via shuttle. He goes into a trance and wakes up on Lotho Minor, whereupon he destroys a Firebreather to save Morley and is then rescued by him. After that he uses the Force to assemble himself that spider leg body, and the rest is history.
Yeah, it's dumb that they had to use a graphic novel to explain something like that, but at least someone bothered to do it.
Your financial contributions to the franchise are, of course, yours to determine. I have similar feelings should the sequel movies make a mess of the post-RotJ timeline as it currently stands. That said, you should know that Filoni isn't quite the guilty party you seem to believe he is. With the exception of the "twist" from Season Five's final arc—the responsibility for which is currently unknown, but may be Filoni's fault—every questionable decision has been near definitively attributed to Lucas, with Filoni often playing the role of the mitigator, who offered pre-established canon and attempted to patch problems as best he could when Lucas proved he didn't care.