Clone Wars Micro-series vs. TCW

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Togruta, Nov 14, 2012.

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Which Clone Wars show do you like better?

Clone Wars (2003) 67 vote(s) 37.6%
The Clone Wars (2008) 111 vote(s) 62.4%
  1. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    True, but he killed a lot of Jedi. That's why his lightsabers were blue and green instead of red. They were trophies he'd taken from his victims. And in Clone Wars (2003), you see him training with Dooku specifically about how to kill Jedi.
  2. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Supposed to be both.
  3. Anakin Solo Revanchist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2011
    star 4
    Labyrinth of Evil describes it pretty well, but I can't recall it right off the top of my head.
  4. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3
    Grievous is an opportunist. Jedi aren't always ready to Force push a quick, slashing opponent. They get tired, hungry, sleepy, demoralized, scared, injured. Grievous preys on the weak. When he meets a Jedi who's worn down, it's time to carve another notch on the ol' belt. But when his enemies are in good shape and can call on the full power of the force, well then it's time for another patented Grievous escape plan.

    Besides, he's got claws on his feet. He can totally just grab the floor when they try to push him.
    Gamiel likes this.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas didn't intend for Grievous to be depicted like he was in the cartoon shorts and in his earliest EU appearances. He was meant to be someone that could fight a Jedi using his bionic limbs, but he wasn't supposed to be better than them. The EU had him as a Jedi killer and he only starts running more due to the injury caused by Mace using the Force on his chest.
  6. Palpatine's P.A. Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2014
    star 1
    Was Grievous force sensitive? And if not, why did the Separatists not create more droids like him and give them lightsabers? Is it just lack of lightsabers?
  7. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    no gg could not use the force.
  8. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3

    According to official canon, he is not Force-sensitive. Palpatine and Dooku tried to infuse him with Sifo-Dyas's blood to make him Force-sensitive, but they believed they failed. In my own head canon (the one that also thinks that Palpatine may have used Force persuasion on Anakin;) ), I believe that their experiments with Grievous were at least partly successful. So, I just pretend that Grievous became moderately Force-sensitive, and because of that and because of his robotic enhancements, he is able to hold his own with mediocre Jedi. If not, then it really makes no sense to me why the Jedi don't simply use Force telekinesis to toss him around until he's a smashed up hunk of junk metal.

    Also, Grievous was a great warrior before he ended up in that robotic suit. Everybody is at least somewhat Force-sensitive because everyone has midis. Most people just don't have enough midis to ever learn to use telekinesis, see into the future, or jump 50-feet high. There are some guys (I think Pre Visla is one) who are just on the borderline. For instance, I remember Plagueis encountering someone and realizing that that guy would never be able to learn to control the Force but that guy's limited Force potential would still make him a more skilled warrior, so maybe Grievous is sort of on the borderline like that.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 22, 2014
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Grievous only held his own with the Jedi that we saw, was due to instilling fear in them. Nothing more than that. Besides, that origin is in doubt. Lucas had intended him as an alien who wanted to be a Jedi, but wasn't strong enough in the Force. So he was altered into a cyborg in order to be a tool against the Jedi.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Apr 22, 2014
  10. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4

    actually he was GL's intro character to vader. that's why he was a cyborg.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, Apr 22, 2014
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    Grievous can consistently hold his own against even the most skilled duelists in the Order, which is impressive in and of itself. As for less experienced Jedi, like Nahdar Vebb, we've seen that Grievous has little problem defeating them in a one-on-one battle. He simply was never intended to be the great killer of Jedi the Clone Wars microseries made him out to be. Personally, I don't much care for characters that are obviously carefully calculated to be as "badass" as physically possible--I find them boring. So I prefer the Grievous from the films and TCW, because he has an interesting personality.

    As for why the Jedi don't just toss him around like a ragdoll: Well, for whatever reason, Jedi can't just make unlimited use of telekinesis to defeat their enemies. It's probably harder than we think to achieve such a constant level of focus in the heat of battle. I've always suspected that it might have something to do with complications related to using the Force to sever a sentient being's will from its control over the body, but that's just speculation on my part.
  12. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    in the series he used his magnetized feet against force push as well.
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Films have no answer, but two cartoons offer different views.



    Relocating to TV, merging with Micro vs TCW.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Apr 25, 2014
  14. KINGKONG83 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2004
    star 1
    TCW no contest..was starting to get really good,then Disney cancelled it:(
  15. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    You basically answered your own question. Obviously IU it's beyond stupid to have Grievous defeat a Jedi Master, all you'd have to do is levitate him off the ground and he'd be stuck immobile in mid-air. (Yes, I know about the magnets according to EU, but the Force is stronger than magnets especially in EU.) So it's basically all OU reasons, wanting him to seem threatening and such. There is no IU explanation, it just makes no sense.
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  16. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 2
    Yes, there is an IU explanation. Using the Force, for Jedi, is a matter of both focus and emotional control. Both of which can be quite hard to come by in intense combat with a 7-foot robotic skeleton wielding the stolen weapons of your murdered comrades. Doubly so when you've already been put through the grinder of battle with lesser droids, a tactic Grievous regularly uses. Physical state effects emotional control.

    As Dooku explicitly said when he trained Grievous, "You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory, and have your trophy." This itself is a restatement of the Sith Dun Moch tactic of psychological warfare. Darth Maul, for example, uses it in his duel with Obi Wan in "Revenge", hindering his fighting skills and unbalancing him by gloating about Qui Gon's death. This visibly reduces his combat effectiveness. In "Bound For Rescue", Grievous employs a similar move by executing a helpless clone trooper in front of Obi Wan prior to engaging, which again causes obvious distress to the Jedi Master. This may account for Kenobi's lackluster performance in their engagement.

    And if all else fails, there's always backup. That's a perk of being the leader of a nigh-unlimited droid army. So, yes, there is an IU explanation.
    Last edited by Why_So_Serious, Apr 25, 2014
  17. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    @Why_So_Serious my mistake, I was wrong to say there is no IU explanation, it just makes no sense. I should have said there is an IU explanation, it just makes no sense.
  18. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 2
    Why does it make no sense? Psychological warfare is an excellent tactic to use on normal opponents, much less ones whose entire skill set relies on emotional control and level-headedness.

    "Make him doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions. Such things disrupt connections to the Force—and death soon follows."
    -HK-47

    Force Smuggler likes this.
  19. Doop Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2014
    star 4
    I'm the 100th voter for TCW!
  20. Todd the Jedi Mod and Sitcom Dad of SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2008
    star 5
    And there's 66 votes for the micro series. [face_devil]
  21. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    You are actually arguing that psychological warfare is more effective against enemies whose lives are centered around staying emotionally balanced? How could that possibly be the case? They would have the most resistance against any such tactic. Jedi Masters have the power to levitate a single humanoid with relative ease, a lifetime of training in not letting their emotions - especially fear remember - run wild, and the ability to sense that their opponent cannot use the Force, so they would have no reason to be especially afraid.
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  22. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 2
    A Jedi's skills, from lightsaber dueling to telekinesis, are utterly dependent on emotional control. Disrupt it even slightly - by, say taunting them about their master's death at your hands or killing their troops in front of them - nullifies their ability to fight. And from Nahdar Vebb to Pong Krell to Obi Wan to Anakin Skywalker to Yoda himself, TCW demonstrates conclusively that Jedi, even High Council members, are far from immune to emotion. Training only goes so far - sooner or later, anyone can be pushed to the breaking point. In wartime, with the shroud of the dark side helping reduce their abilities even further, the effect is magnified. You'll notice Grievous often has his droids slaughter the Jedi's clones prior to attacking them. There's a reason for this - death feeds the dark side and weakens a Jedi. And of course, Grievous knows this, having had extensive training in anti-Jedi combat by one of the Order's best swordsmen.

    You seem to be under the impression that Jedi can somehow train themselves to be immune to psychology. They can't. It's just a matter of pushing hard enough.
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    @Why_So_Serious you seem to keep accusing me of thinking things I have already explicitly said I don't believe multiple times, arguing against your own made up points. Seriously, I say Jedi are the best equipped to withstand psychological warfare...so you seek to conclusively prove that Jedi are not immune from emotion? Uhhh... ...okay... ...that was never my point. But I'm not going to keep repeating myself about that. If you would like to debate some of the points I have actually made, go ahead. I do not think that if a Jedi Master is disrupted "even slightly" that that "nullifies" their powers. TCW does not demonstrate that. TCW has Jedi using the Force under emotional stress, as do the SW films.
  24. Why_So_Serious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 2
    I admit that I engaged in a bit of hyperbole when I said that emotional stress nullifies a Jedi's power. The actual effect is to either reduce it or cause them to call on the dark side. The former is demonstrated when Darth Maul provokes Kenobi to rage in their duel, which explicitly unbalances him and lets Maul beat him up pretty badly. The latter is demonstrated when Anakin overpowers Dooku with his rage.

    But my point stands: the Jedi are vulnerable to psychological warfare, Grievous knows this and will exploit it, and this is the IU reason he can kill high-level Jedi. What's stupid about that?
  25. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    Ugh. Please don't remind me of Lucas' babyish retcon of Grievous' backstory. That, "he was jealous that he couldn't be a Jedi," nonsense is literally something a third grader would think up. There's good reason Filoni chose not to go with it in TCW and keep things vague.
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.