Midi-Chlorians: Another Look

Introduced in the PT, named only in the PT, yet applicable to the entire saga, the debate about midi-chlorians has raged for some time. Only "debate" seems like the wrong word. Everyone seems to have their own view on these (almost always negative) and sticks with it. But I read an interesting new take on midis on another board that I wish to share with you...

While Lucas' approach to explaining their meaning and significance may actually be clumsy (this thread is not intended to discuss the quality of storytelling - though it might be necessary to discuss that aspect in the course of the discussion), I think many people might have been looking at them the wrong way. Take the view of Orson Scott Card. He, and many others, have rejected the Jedi Order as an ineffectual, smug, elitisist atristocracy. That view is not entirely unfounded. But most people that hold this view also claim the fault lies with the midi-chlorians. They say that the midis themselves are an unnecessary piece of expository equipment and have actually tainted the saga by both: a) "explaining" the origin, nature and extent of the Force (though they clearly don't), and b) by making an affinity with the Force something that must be inherited and not naturally bestowed on all lifeforms at the point of conception. But what if this latter charge is as equally untrue as the former? Here we go:

The midi-chlorians tell a person the "will of the Force" and the "will of the Force" only. A person is otherwise totally free to do what they like. Anyone can learn the Force because everyone has some innate connection to it. Those with higher midi-chlorian counts can simply hear the "will of the Force" more easily (with time and training).

What do you think to this? A line of dialogue by Qui Gon in TPM is particularly revealing. When Obi Wan asks his master what Anakin's incredibly high count means (higher even than Yoda - who we can assume held the previous Guinness World Record), Qui Gon simply responds: "I don't know". If the connection between midi-chlorian account and Force ability was as obvious as many claim, why would two Jedi be discussing the matter and neither have a satisfactory answer? It has to be a little more intricate than that. Qui Gon's blood sampling isn't merely a scientific confirmation of Anakin's ability with the Force; Qui Gon is already certain of that. His blood sampling is the next step - and the implications of the result, if not the result itself, leave Qui Gon mystified. It seems that Qui Gon is content to feel he knows what role the midi-chlorians perform (in his explanation to Anakin, he says, "they continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force"), but he doesn't know, at least when he first hears the result, what it means for Anakin. This implies an obvious disconnect to me. Anakin's Force ability is one thing; his midi-chlorian count is another.

When Anakin wins the race, and by the time Qui Gon reaches Coruscant with him, it's possible Qui Gon has made up his mind: Anakin must be the Chosen One. But it's not on Force ability alone. Remember what Qui Gon tells Shmi: "Finding him was the will of the Force". The Force has placed him on a path - but for what reason? It isn't enough that Anakin have tremendous insight and ability. There's another purpose to be discovered. This is Qui Gon's modus operandi throughout the film. He even says as much: "Nothing happens by accident". Qui Gon believes in a greater power; the Force isn't something to just be used, it is something that uses other people (if those people are willing to see the signs and submit to its will). Many people caught the suggested symbiosis of midi-chlorians and lifeforms. Some also caught the suggested symbiosis of "Living Force" and "Cosmic Force". But the relationship of using the Force and letting the Force use you is another. This, I think, is where the real significance of midi-chlorians, and the saga itself, lies.

The midis are allegorical. Everyone has some measure of them; some just have more than others. Why is one person tall and

 

EDIT: Sorry for typos and whatnot. I was editing for some time and adding more text - without spotting all the little errors that now leap out at me.

 

First off, good post man!

Has this ever been officialy stated anywhere as being true? I seem to have read this quite abit on here recently and it makes no sense if it's true. Think about it, if force ability can ONLY be inherited then the Jedi Order is obvisouly stupid in not letting it's members procreate.

I know this isnt what your post is about, but it's just a little thing thats been bugging me.

 

"Force something that must be inherited and not naturally bestowed on all lifeforms at the point of conception."


"The force is strong in my family, my father has it, I have it, and my sister has it."
Luke Skywalker ROTJ

 

I think it is implicit in Qui-Gon's question "who was his father?" and Obi-Wan's statement that "the Emperor knew if Anakin had any offspring they would be a threat to him." But I agree about the Jedi Order's rules not making sense.

I like your thoughts on the midi-issue, cryogenic. I recall Lucas stating somewhere that he believes everyone has their specific destiny, talents, and task in life.

I think it once again demonstrates that people are too focussed on the "most powerful" issue. Qui-Gon says the purpose of the midichlorians are telling us the will of the Force. He doesn't talk about the midichlorians as way to acquire power. One should assume that for the Chosen One it should be easier to hear the will of the Force - instead we see Anakin developing into some kind of maximum power Jedi who at the same time seems to have a hard time in hearing the will of the Force. What went wrong? "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you." It seems he never learnt. In his approach to use the Force for becoming more powerful, in a way he seems to have cut off the wisdom channel and silenced the midichlorians voice that are telling him the will of the Force.

Maybe it's a matter of the training approach once again. Too much focussed on lightsaber training and following the rules, too little concentration on learning to use one's instincts, listening to the voice of the midichlorians, understanding the will of the Force.

I'm still confused about the whole "most powerful Jedi ever" issue. What has being the most powerful, especially in combat, got to do with being the Chosen One? He didn't need any Force power at all to fulfil his destiny in the end. What is the point of Anakin being so powerful?

 

Thanks!

I agree.

I think the Jedi are on the look-out for new "Force sensitives" anywhere within the Republic - but they never counted on facing a boy with incredible ability from a backwater planet outside of the Republic. Anakin is an affront to the established system. Yet I don't think the Force merely propogates itself - or rather, propogates high concentrations of midi-chlorians in lifeforms - just through family trees. For then the Jedi truly would be screwed. However, I think family trees are an example: if the Force was allowed to be spread this way, it most certainly would. The birth of Luke and Leia could be taken to be "the Force Strik(ing) Back". This is surely what the Force wanted. The Jedi were constraining it by not allowing their members to reproduce. And, just to stress the point, the Force didn't just make one baby - it made two; one of each sex. Hint, hint, hint! All coincidental? Well, Lucas had to piece the two trilogies together, but he's also very thematically and mythologically aware. The birth of Luke and Leia can only be representative of good things - on a number of very striking and cogent levels.

Yes, indeed!

That quote has been on my mind as I've made my posts within this thread. The Force definitely spreads this way. It might even be argued that it prefers to spread this way - it just never had a chance to under the PT Jedi.

Yes. He has done so here:

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/luc0int-1

That's one long - but very inspiring - interview.

I think you summed things up beautifully there. Anakin needed no metaphysical power to fulfil his destiny. Likewise, Luke renounced his lightsabre

 

my personal take on midichlorians is that they are the attempt to scientifizise power.

ultimately that doesn't lead anywhere. it's just a quantifiable thing, because the jedi have lost touch with quality.

or something like that.

 

That's a view I used to hold. It might still be true. But I think there's more to it than that. Even Anakin says of Obi Wan in Episode II: "He's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda". This is interesting since Yoda was meant to have had the highest midi-chlorian count in the galaxy until Anakin was discovered. Power and wisdom - Force ability and listening to the Force through the midi-chlorians - don't appear to go hand in hand. Yes, Yoda is still incredibly powerful, but he's had 800+ years to get good. (One could also argue, however, that he's had 800+ years to get wise). It's Anakin's unusually high midi-chlorian count that connotes potential uniqueness to Qui Gon and the Jedi; his Force ability is a separate thing. But even the Jedi Council starts confusing the two: "the boy has exceptional skills". Yes - but that's not the point, is it, Mace? It's interesting that Mace counters with that statement in response to Obi Wan's protestations about Anakin's mental outlook; surely, as Yoda tells Luke in TESB ("A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind"/"I don't believe it!";"That is why you fail"), a Jedi's mental outlook is of paramount importance.

 

I think of it like this. Your ears are not sound, they are just the organs that interpret the sound.

Midichlorians aren't the Force, they are just the antennae in which a living being can communicate with the Force.

In the ANH novelization, Obi-Wan tells Luke about how the Republic tried to define the Force with science, but never quite could. That perhaps the Force is as much magic as science.

Not just magic, but as much magic as science.

 

That's all well and good (and is a good refutation of point "a" in my original post) - but I'm much more interested in what you think of point "b". What do you think of this interpretation?

I took your question to be rhetorical and glossed over it. But, you're right: what is the point? I think the point was for Anakin to get noticed and keep being noticed (by Qui Gon, by the Council and by Palpatine). There's no way he'd ever have left Tatooine without having the Force-augmented traits that he did.

 

Well, If you are reffering to the idea that suddenly Midichlorians make the Force something that only people with certain lineages have, that's not the case at all. In the classic trilogy it was made clear that the reason Luke and Leia had a shot was because their father was strong with the force. Luke says the Force runs strong in his family, so even back then it was something that was considered genetic.

Now that we have the explaination of the Midichlorians (something Lucas said he always had in the back of his mind while making the classic trilogy but just never explained it) we find that it's not just people who are related to powerful Force users, because Midichlorians reside in each and every single cell of every single life form. The difference with the Jedi is they tend to have higher concentrations of Midichlorians. So while before we didn't have much to go on to suggest Han could ever commune with the Force, now we have some leeway to think that he possibly could, even if he couldn't do it as well as someone with a higher midi count.

 

"One should assume that for the Chosen One it should be easier to hear the will of the Force - instead we see Anakin developing into some kind of maximum power Jedi who at the same time seems to have a hard time in hearing the will of the Force."


I still feel a bit grumpy anytime I hear about midichlorians. But I'm enjoying reading these comments. That comment above resonated with me. Throughout both trilogies, we hear Jedi saying all kinds of things about the Force. The Force this, the Force that, feel the Force, learn the will of the Force...etc. Except Anakin!

To the best of my memory, Anakin never mentions the Force, except once when he says "May the Force be with you" in farewell to Obi-Wan. (And since that seems to be a basic expression that everyone uses, even Han, that doesn't count.) It's like a priest who never talks about God. In the OT, Vader mentions the Force sometimes, but again, it's mostly in the context of power, and/or the Dark Side.

I recall the Star Wars (ep 4) novel where Obi-Wan confronts Vader; Vader says "...now I am the master," and Kenobi replies, "Only a master of evil, Darth. As always, you perceive the true essence of the Force as little as a fork perceives the taste of food." I can't find my book at the moment to look it up, but it was something along those lines.

Despite a high midichlorian count, Anakin seems to be a bit disconnected from the "bigger picture," as it were. He can USE the Force, and powerfully so, but perhaps he was never truly in harmony with it, as someone like Qui-Gon is. (Perhaps the Jedi Order did not adequately train and encourage him in this, but that's a different topic.) Interesting...

 

He has the best reciever, but he has trouble tuning it in.

You can only hear the Force when you are calm, at peace.

Anakin grew very imaptient, and very troubled. As he got older and older he became more frustrated and emotionally unbalanced. I think that's why he ended up straying so far from what the will of the Force might have wanted to get across to him.

 

But getting noticed by Qui-Gon had to do with the midi-count and thus with the potential to listen to the will of the Force, not with the "most powerful" stuff when it comes to combat. Its the fuss about the compat issue that I don't understand.

 

I meant initially. Initially, Anakin drew attention to himself with his innate goodness and powers of perception. Qui Gon does the blood test after remarking about his strength with the Force. I don't see the blood test as confirmation of Anakin's adeptness with the Force so much as the idea that Anakin's both adept, and with the test complete, Qui Gon has an empirical measure of Anakin's potential, with the right time and training, to put that adeptness to good use (though you're right: there's a conundrum - what good are are his powers when he doesn't even use them ultimately?). Again, I have to think his adeptness with the Force is a means to an end of getting him noticed; Qui Gon would never have even bothered testing him had Anakin's ability to "see things before they happen" not already put that idea into his head. Cause and effect. Remove the cause and you have no effect.

But OK: combat powers. What good are they? I don't rightly know. I suppose, at the most basic level, his skills are meant to be used responsibly to help the oppressed. We can prattle on about "quieting one's mind" and "using the Force" all day, but ultimately, when push comes to shove, it's a physical universe the Jedi are operating within; their powers give them the ability to negotiate it to a better degree than the average person. Anakin is meant to be a figure that inspires hope in less able people than himself; a kind of Superman/Neo/Jesus of the Star Wars galaxy. It's his command of the Force that grants him the ability to stand out and do good (or, unfortunately, as it turns out, evil). When the Neomoidians, at the start of Episode I, learn that the "ambassadors are Jedi Knights", as their protocol droid calmly reports to them, they quickly become fearful: "Have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before, sir?". Without powers, without metaphysical muscle to back up their philosophy, the Jedi would be impotent. They need their powers in order to maximise their ability to do good. They are a means to an end - but they should never be a means to a bad end or warp into the end itself (as they do with Anakin when he turns to the Dark Side). That Anakin didn't need any powers at the conclusion of the saga is an ironic twist on this premise and helps us understand that some of the greatest gestures are the simplest ones; the ones we all have the ability to perform.

 

The Jedi forbide marriages. They don't forbide getting your freak on. Lucas said as much to Jackson while discussing the marraige issue during the making of AOTC. The reason Jedi don't go out and have children has to do with issues of attachment and how it is possible that jealousy comes into things. Imagine being Luke trained in the Temple, while some other Jedi has a child who isn't as strong as Luke. Resentment that the son of Skywalker is better than the son of someone else. The Jedi have instead relied on being invited to worlds to meet with parents who wish their child to be tested and possibly trained.

 

Well, this is going a bit off topic, but what does it tell about the Jedi that they obviously enforced their ambassadorial authority by instilling fear? And Anakin's statement about the "negotiations with a lightsaber." It makes me wonder about the nature of the Jedi's "diplomatic missions."

I keep thinking about the relationship between the combat powers and the ability to perceive the will of the Force. Isn't it puzzling that the potentially most powerful Force user seems to have serious shortcomings when it comes to perceiving the will of the Force? You worte "Power and wisdom - Force ability and listening to the Force through the midi-chlorians - don't appear to go hand in hand."
Could it be possible that this is about channeling one's potential intor the right usage? That Anakin had the potential for either becoming very powerful in combat, as well very apt in perceiving the will of the Force? The visions come to mind, as well as Yoda's statement that nowadays only a few Jedi are capable of these kinds of visions. Obviously the potential of hearing to the will of the Force was there with Anakin. It's just that it wasn't developed, unlike the combat skills. It seems the midi-count is a measure of talent, the more talent you are gifted with, the greater your task in life is and the greater the responsibilities.

 

well, expanding my view a little: they wanted kids to be trained from birth (no interference etc) so they had very little choice in who to take, there had to be something they could measure which would guarantee that the kid could be put to work for them.

so, they came up with the midichlorians because they had been casually thrown around for centuries and they seemed to have a vague connection with the force (i really have trouble coming up with a good force concept) so they could measure that. it's collective failure to see that force ability is not something that's just in your body (hence yoda's teachings in ESB) but that it also has to do with your mind.

there's a small hitch here because obviously they valued yoda's wisdom etc in the council. but it was also based on his age, the jedi base authority and expertise on age, i should think.

anyway, they had something they could measure and attributed the abilities to that scale. it reminds me of IQ tests. that's where most of my resentment stems from.

 

Good topic Cryo.
I don't put too much weight on midi-chlorians when looking at the six movies as a whole, but when looking at the PT alone the concept has its merits.

I agree, it was probably meant to be a little ambiguous.
"What does that mean?"
"He can lift a building."
"Oh."
Not nearly as interesting

I'd like to hear what GL has to say about Sidious's midi count.

Well "spotted", it's re-enforced by the line before this -
"Your focus determines your reality. Stick close to me, Ani, and you'll be safe."


I hope you don't mind me posting this comparison here, Cryogenic -
(It's a Jedi and Sith lesson related to midis)

Revenge of the Sith

PALPATINE: (continuing) Anakin, you know I'm not able to rely on the Jedi Council. If they haven't included you in their plot, they soon will.

ANAKIN: I'm not sure I understand.

PALPATINE: You must sense what I have come to suspect . . . the Jedi Council want control of the Republic . . . they're planning to betray me.

ANAKIN: I don't think . . .

PALPATINE: Anakin, search your feelings. You know, don't you?

ANAKIN: I know they don't trust you . . .

PALPATINE: Or the Senate . . . or the Republic . . . or democracy for that matter.

ANAKIN: I have to admit my trust in them has been shaken.

.......

PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?

ANAKIN: No.

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

ANAKIN: What happened to him?

PALPATINE: He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. (smiles) Plagueis never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.

ANAKIN: Is it possible to learn this power?

PALPATINE: Not from a Jedi.


The Phantom Menace

ANAKIN: Qui-Gon, sir, I don't want to be a problem.

QUI-GON: You won't be, Annie....I'm not allowed to train you, so I want you to watch me and be mindful...always remember, your focus determines your reality.
Stay close to me and you will be safe.

ANAKIN: Master, sir... I heard Yoda talking about midi-chlorians. I've been wondering... what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON: Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells.

ANAKIN:
They live inside me?

QUI-GON: Inside your cells, yes... and we are symbionts with them.

ANAKIN: Symbionts?

QUI-GON: Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, a

 

Thanks for that contribution.

Palpatine also says to Anakin: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved". And some odd, almost ethereal music begins to play -- as if this transcends a mere lie (even if the real truth is unknown to both characters). Could this be a reference to Qui Gon and a foreshadowing of Yoda's upcoming revelation to Obi Wan?

 

If the ability to "use" the Force is genetics (or natural) then that means only family related beings can be Jedi. However, how are these relationships made? I thought the Jedi could not marry or have attachments. I doubt they go for the "one night stand thing" either.

 

I never read the ANH novelization. That is an interesting little factoid. I think that midichlorians should have been brought up one more time somehow....perhaps by Obi-Wan insisting on testing Luke and Leia only to discover that they don't have high midichlorian counts. Obi-Wan could appear disappointed believing that the twins would not be powerful before Yoda reveals that Obi-Wan also has a very low Midichlorian count and just beat Anakin, the person with the off the charts reading. They could go on to discuss how it isn't the amount of midi's, but your ability to discipline yourself and have faith in the guidance of the force. It would be one final chance to demonstrate the folly of the old ideals of the Jedi Order and their misguided trust in warfare, technology, and science and help usher in the new philosophy that is based more on faith, love, and comprehension (With the added benefit of giving an in-universe explanation as to why they were not addressed in the OT.)

Carnage

 

Plus you wouldn't them to start powerfull Jedi dynastys

 

Jedi ability is passed genetically, but that does not exclude random ability being granted to children from non-force sensitive parents. It kind of seems like genetic anomolies like dwarfism. Little people are most often born to normal size parents and while are slightly more likely to produce small children themselves, they are also just as likley to have "normal" children. Therefore, it is not nessesary for Jedi to marry simply to fill thier ranks. They seem to have done well for over 1000 years without resorting to "in-breeding" so to speak. In fact, as the previous post suggested, this could be very dangerous in that it could lead to a dynasty type of situation.

 

Ahhh, but dwarfism follows a polygenic approach in genetics, where in most cases only 25% of "Little People" offspring are actually little. Even if the force is monogenic, there are certainly problems with surefire force sensitivity. If genetics works the same way in the Star Wars universe, and force Sensitivity is a dominant trait, it's hard to tell. If Capital F = Force sensitive and small f is not force sensitive.....

Anakin Skywalker must be FF. Padme Amidala ff. 100% of their children will be Ff. Leia is Ff. Han Solo is ff. That gives Half of them Force Sensitivity of the Ff genotype and half of them no force sensitivity at the ff genotype. Let's be sick for a second and say it was Leia and Luke that bread. 25% of their children would be FF (Force Sensitive), 50% would be Ff (Force Sensitive) and 25% would be ff (non force sensitive). It's very possibly that two Jedi could have non-force sensitive children using earthly genetics. Of course, if it's polygenic, it opens up a whole new array of possible levels of force power.

Carnage