main
side
curve
  1. A Warning For Everyone To See:


    PT vs. OT vs. ST vs. Anthology (in any combination) debates are not allowed in the New Movies forums. Discussions that descend into OT/PT/ST/Anthology bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Consider this your warning.
  2. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

TFA Midi-chlorians in Episode VII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by StarWarren, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    That' how a lot of us felt seeing what was done to the force
     
  2. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    As far as I know that wouldn't work. Biology majors correct me if I'm wrong but breeding for traits usually expresses itself phenotypically (outward shape) and possibly in disposition (more or less aggressive). Genes have a certain range of "expression" -- barring mutation or technological tinkering, selective breeding or natural selection can only go so far before it hits the genetic wall; if it goes beyond that you'll get species separation. You'd need hundreds, possibly thousands, of generations to selectively, genetically breed something as complex as a human or humanoid because of how heredity works. To try and increase exponentially the number of microbes living in an organism through selective breeding would be insanely clunky -- better off to simply genetically engineer Force sensitives with some internal organ that pumps out midichlorians or create fast, self replicating midichlorians. But what if the Force decided not to "speak" to these gen-engineered beings?
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  3. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Dude, stop trying to dictate what is or isn't relevant to the discussion. Let the participants decide that for themselves.

    The Skywalker line ending with Shmi and beginning with Anakin is special in that it was created by the Force itself. That's pretty dang special! Or does it ruin it for you if there is any taint of the material about it? Sounds like you have religious problems with the story, not narrative ones.
     
    Andy Wylde, EHT , FRAGWAGON and 2 others like this.
  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Why would the Sith care about species separation?

    Besides, it doesn't take hundreds or thousands of generation to breed a certain trait into dogs or cats, so why would it take any more generations for humans? Humans are not really more complex than dogs on a genetical level.

    But yes, genetically engineering would also be a possibility. I've just heard some BS claims in the past that this isn't possible in SW.
     
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  5. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    I will share my opinion how I like. I don't need your permission, consent, or approval. The point has been made that there should be many people out there with the force if this is genetic. Why is the Skywalker line the only one that's important? BEcause they are chosen? Kenobi wasn't chosen, he cut Anakin down. Well, there should be many countess people out there with Kenobi potential.
     
  6. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Kenobi had tactical advantages over Anakin:

    1. He had the high ground, so Ani had to make himself vulnerable to get within striking distance.

    2. Kenobi had already been in a similar situation vs. Darth Maul, but reversed. He knew just how Anakin would have to time his move to get at him. Ani didn't have that knowledge.

    3. Kenobi remained calm during the fight, he maintained self control. Ani was completely out of control.

    All reasons why Obi was able to win that duel at that moment.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  7. fishtailsam

    fishtailsam Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2003
    not if the empire systematically hunted down force sensatives. And since the PT, now we have a handy dandy blood test. All the Empire would have to do is roll out an imperial equivilant to the Center for Deisease Control and start blood testing everyone. Weed out everyone with a Midi count greater than X.

    Pretty flipping sinister actually
    I wanna see that in Rebels.
     
  8. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    And there should be plenty of people out there carrying the gene to be just like Kenobi, if the force is nothing but genetics
     
  9. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013

    OK, even in that case there would be survivors, parents who hide their babies. The Skywalkers would still not be unique even under those conditions.
     
  10. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    The real problem here is that you don't seem to understand what genes are or how they work, as far as I can tell. Reproduction isn't a Xerox machine! Traits can be lost for generations and resurface unexpectedly in a family. A family might go several generations before they produce another baby who registers on the Jedi scale of Force sensitivity. The reason it works so closely in the Skywalker family is because they are the main characters and you shouldn't let a little thing like science get in the way of a good myth.
     
  11. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    And people are wondering why we think this takes the magic out of SW.
     
  12. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013

    Of course I understand. It's basic high school science. The simple fact is, this was not a trait unique to one family. It doesn't have to be a "Xerox" machine.

    The fact that it doesn't jive with the films is neither here nor there.
     
  13. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    If the force genes are rare and recessive, how come Luke and Leia are both force sensitive? Doubt Padmé carried the force genes.
     
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  14. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    You're about to be reminded that Anakin was the "Chosen One". Funny, the line is chosen "ONE", not chosen family of three
     
  15. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Narrative necessity. It can break any rule at any time & get away with it as long as the majority of the audience are pleased. It doesn't even have to make sense. As for the genetics of how midichlorians interact with the body: we don't have enough information to speculate much. For Lucas, it was just a grace note meant to underline a subtext about symbiotic relationships in TPM. I doubt he imagined being cross examined by hyper-fans 15 years later.
     
  16. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Fair enough. :)

    Man are we overanalyzing this. But I can't help myself, I find it fun. ;)
     
  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I think what takes the magic out of Star Wars is this endless debate based on non-logic.
     
  18. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2013
    I would agree with that
     
    Immortiss and The-Eternal-Hero like this.
  19. fishtailsam

    fishtailsam Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2003
    To be fair we are having a conversation about a family of laser-sword wielding space wizards. Logic will always be wobbly.
     
  20. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Right, ESB and ROTJ seem to suggest that Force ability is linked to genes, because it "runs strong in families," but then TPM introduces midi-chlorians instead. Midi-chlorians are defined by the movies are organisms that live inside people's cells. That means they have their own genetic code, much like mitochondria (which have their own DNA--you don't carry "mitochondria genes" or whatever). So, the notion of midi-chlorians does not support the idea that Force potential is linked to a person's genes.
    The movies furthermore show that the number of midi-chlorians per cell varies between individuals. We don't know all of the sources of his variation, but the movies show that the will of the Force is one factor. So why are people so married to the idea that the Force is linked to a person's genes? It's not supported by the movies.


    I concur. :)



    Population dynamics is about populations, not individuals. Saying symbionts and parasites are the same thing "because of population dynamics" confuses the population and individual level. Parasites are defined as organisms living off the host at the expense of the (individual) host organism. Whether or not the species of which the individual host organism is a member has in its past seen a shift in allele frequencies because of that parasite--for as far as that can even be determined--doesn't factor into that.
     
  21. Dasan

    Dasan Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2013
    The films clearly imply that Anakin was deliberately created, by a Sith no less, to be incredibly Force-sensitive. I don't see why his and his offsprings force-sensitive nature should not be attributed the Force having "chosen" them, when the films don't suggest this at all and in fact suggest a different explanation.
     
    fishtailsam likes this.
  22. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012

    The films don't imply that Anakin was created by the Sith, and the EU (the novel "Darth Plagueis") says differently.
     
    Granek and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  23. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    I would say mitochondrial DNA is part of ones genes. Just because it looks like a bacterias plasmid doesn't mean it isn't genes. Bacteria do have genes.

    Besides, Midis don't work like Mitis because here we have a case were the genes are passed down from father to children. But in Mitis case it is only passed down from mother to children.

    Fair enough, though I didn't say symbiosis and parasitism are the same thing. I said both are neither inherently good nor evil.

    And what I meant is that the evolution of parasitism in a species is tied to population mechanic. If parasitic behaviour proofs advantageous for the individual (causing it to produce more offspring than its non-parasitic "brothers and sisters") it will be passed on to future generations and the survival advantage would cause the species to evolve into parasites. It has to start somewhere after all.
     
  24. StoneRiver

    StoneRiver Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Now I'm no scientist, but hear me out on this as another possible option to mull over.

    "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you." - Qui-Gon

    Maybe Midichlorians and the Force are not mutually exclusive and they are not the same thing at all. Maybe the Force is genetics and the Midi's choose who they wish to speak to? As Qui-Gon says, without the Midi's we would have no knowledge of the Force.

    I am correct in taking that to be 2 different entities aren't I, Midi's and the Force?
     
  25. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I posted this in another htread but it might be interesting here.

    If Luke was assured to have a high midi count because his father had one then it means the following;

    1) A high midi count is ALWAYS passed on. So one parent have say 500 and the other have 2500, ALL their children will have 2500.
    2) This will have the effect of slowly raising the average midi count for the whole galaxy. So over 1000's of generations, the average number will keep increasing. So the galaxy is getting more and more Force-sensitive.
    3) High numbers, like say 15 000, is probably rare, but if that someone did not become a Jedi and had two children, those will also have 15 000 midi count. If both children have two children each and this goes on for generations. Then you will have millions with this high count after a while.
    4) Luke and Leia were the last hopes. If this was only due to their midi count and not due to their family connectio to Vader, then what about the relatives to all the other Jedi?
    Take the Jedi in the PT, all of their siblings will have as high a count as they have. The children of those siblings will also have as high a count if not higher. Sure that count is not AS high as Anakins children but high enough to be trained as Jedi.
    So then Obi-Wan and Yoda would have loads of other candidates.

    Someone above suggest the empire hunt down and kill all those with a certain mid count. I doubt the empire could do that right after RotS. The senate still existed and still had some power. Only after the DS was complet did Palpatine decide to rule by fear and force alone.
    So doing something like the final solution to a large segement of the population would raise objections. Also, since Leia has a high count and she is alive and well in ANH and even works as a senator, it is very unlikely that the empire did this.

    If Luke and Leia are special due to narrative needs, then why not have the Skywalker family be "special" or favored by the "God/The Force". Normally, Force sensitivity isn't passed on but in the Skywalker line it is. This explains why Obi-Wan and Yoda are so focused on Luke/Leia, they KNOW they are strong and don't need to search for others. The Force is sometime spoken about in spiritual terms and it has a will so perhaps it's will has "blessed" the Skywalker family.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.