ST Midi-chlorians in Episode VII

True, the force has a will.

Also, it is made clear in the PT novels that the Jedi do their best to understand the force, and that while they understand it better than anyone else in the galaxy (along with the Sith), but they mostly do not understand it; thus I would tend to think it is more complex than mere human genetics.

 

But you're not giving me any evidence to counter my points.


Do we ever see any characters talking about what life was like before they were born?

The Force itself is defined as being part of the physical realm in the very first scene it's ever introduced in Star Wars. It's an energy field.

The Jedi don't act like ascetics or gnostics, they care deeply about the physical world too, and about preserving (physical!) forms of life.


Please see my edited post above.

The Force is not genetics. It's just how many midichlorians you have that's genetic, and the midichlorian count is just how easy it is for a person to sense and be trained in the Force.

 

The evidence is in Yoda's teachings. He tells us what he thinks of the physical world.

And as to this point about an energy field, that is a phrase that can have many different meanings. Spiritual energy in this context would seem to apply.

He is not giving us a physics lecture. He's not talking about radiation.

And if life comes from birth, why would it exist beyond death? Are not birth and death equal but opposite ends of the same physical existence? Why harp on one, but not the other?

 

The ST could be about midichlorian blood-doping and illicit trade in midichlorians and jedi and sith wannabees shooting up with midichlorians. Darth Lance Armstrong can be the new villain, using ridicules amounts of the force to remove hair from wookiees and ewoks without lifting a razor.

 

Perhaps this is a poor analogy but I see the midis are to the Force as what athleticism is to playing sports.

There are athletes who are far shorter (NBA player Nate Robinson is 5'9" and Darren Sproles has made an impact in the NFL at 5'6"), slower (perhaps the best football player ever, Jerry Rice, was considered "slow" by his 40-yard dash time), weaker and generally less athletic (Peyton Manning anybody?) than their peers but are able to not only play professional sports, but are able to be among the best at them. On the other hand, there are many, many, many people who were born with the physical gifts to become a pro athlete but do not apply themselves and don't even sniff the pros.

High natural athleticism and midi-count are not necessary to becoming a great professional athlete or Force user. Yes, it does make it easier for some than others and gives certain people a higher ceiling (just like Anakin, had he maximized his potential, would have been unbeatable, so was Jordan in the NBA); that's just how it is. But in either case, what's most important is how each individual applies themselves. Only then does natural talent/midis really come into play.

 

I know, we've been over this. I've already said how Yoda's quote still makes sense in context with everything else.


Again,

Do we ever see any characters talking about what life was like before they were born?

The Force itself is defined as being part of the physical realm in the very first scene it's ever introduced in Star Wars. It's an energy field. This comes before Yoda's speech.

The Jedi don't act like ascetics or gnostics, they care deeply about the physical world too, and about preserving (physical!) forms of life.



My view is consistent with all 6 movies. You have not shown how yours is yet.

 

don't forget about the BALCO laboratory on Tatoine that makes midichorians that cannot be detected by the Jedi lab test.

 

lol at you posting this as I am typing out mine...

 

Why would I show that my view is consistent with all six movies, when I don't believe the six movies are consistent with themselves? I think the movies are wildly inconsistent. In this, and several other areas.

 

I think the force is like radio waves and midi-chlorians are like the antenna to tune them in. When Yoda talks about luminous beings he is talking about you are more then your body because you can retain your identity in the force once you lose your body. Force ghosts themselves glow so they are literally luminous. But obviously there are limits. Why didn't Ben Kenobi roll together his ghost squad and go sabotage the second death star? Put poison in the Emperors tea? Obi Wan says he can't help in Luke's fight against Vader - because it is Luke's test or because force ghosts can't manipulate the physical realm? I guess we shall see, but so far it seems like you need a body to manipulate the force in certain ways.

 

But I've been showing you a way that all the movies are consistent in their view of the Force. That's the point of all I've been saying.

Episode 4 tells us something, Episode 5 tells us more, Episode 6 tells us more, Episode 1 tells us even more, etc. It's like a puzzle piece. You can't look at just one piece and claim to know the entire puzzle.

Right now, your view of the Force isn't even consistent with Episode 4 or Episode 6.


The "right" view is the view that is consistent with all 6 movies. There's likely more than one possible "right" view. I think I've laid out my case pretty well. But you seem to be saying that your view isn't consistent across all 6 movies. If that's the case, then that view is wrong. In order to be one of the possible "right" views, it has to be consistent across all the movies. Right now, yours isn't even consistent with Episode 4's introduction of the Force.

 

Yes, that's the way it's used in the films. And that's something I don't like. The measure of a man should not be a number. If someone asks, "Was Martin Luther King a good man?" you don't answer, "Yes, his goodness count was 20,000." The spirit is not defined by numbers, and the Force should be all about spirit, not quantifiable biological traits. IMO.

 

Midichlorians measure how easy it is for somebody to be trained in the Force, that's all. In Star Wars, the spiritual is physical, has been that way since 1977.

 

That's the "right" view? According to who? I see absolutely no duty to make an argument that excuses away what I see as flaws in the way these films line up.

It's not just the force. Kenobi tells us that he met an Anakin who was a great pilot, we meet a slave boy. He tells us that Owen thought that Anakin should have stayed home and not followed Kenobi into adventure. Owen didn['t even know Anakin at that time, and he wasn't following Kenobi into adventure, he was escaping a life of slavery? These movies aren't consistent

Why is this all about making these six movies coherent now? Why would I even begin to care about that, when I don't believe they are a coherent story to begin with?

And I clearly don't agree that my view is inconsistent with the other OT films.

 

Uh did we forget the part when he won the Boonta eve race (AND he was the only human that could even pilot a pod!) and blew up a droid control ship? This was all like in the 3 days he met Anakin. It seems like you are trying to retcon what you want to believe based on a couple lines from one movie.

 

That Anakin had never piloted a ship, never been off planet as best we can tell. Kenobi clearly wasn't interested in training him or amazed at how strong he was in the force. That was Qui-Gon, in fact he disapproved of Qui-Gon picking up all of these pathetic life forms.

He didn't take it on himself to train the boy, it was Qui-Gon that insisted in his training.

He wasn't following his friend into adventure, he was escaping a life of slavery.

The whole backstory in ANH does not fit

 

The right view of "the Force" depicted in the Star Wars saga... has to be consistent across all 6 movies that constitute the Star Wars saga.

Those other problems you mention have already been easily retconned (Anakin was already a great pilot, podracing, and in the Battle of Naboo... Owen didn't want Anakin to leave Tatooine after his mother died, but Artoo informed them that an Obi-wan Kenobi was calling him away, etc.), but that's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing the Force, and midichlorians.

I've shown how midichlorians are consistent with how the Force is described in the OT. You don't like it. That's fine, you don't have to like it. But your view isn't consistent, it doesn't apply to all the movies, and that makes it wrong.

And this entire debate between us has from the start been about how the midichlorians are consistent with the view of the Force in the OT. Your view isn't even consistent with the rest of the OT.

You're changing the goal posts, and admitting you don't care about consistency. I win.

I thought you don't care about consistency?

But again:

Do we ever see any characters talking about what life was like before they were born?

The Force itself is defined as being part of the physical realm in the very first scene it's ever introduced in Star Wars. It's an energy field.

The Jedi don't act like ascetics or gnostics, they care deeply about the physical world too, and about preserving (physical!) forms of life.

This is off-topic, but quickly:

Obi-wan mentioned pilot. Podracing counts. They made a big deal about how he's the only human who can do it. And then there's the whole Battle of Naboo happening before Anakin became his apprentice.

Kenobi took it upon himself to train the boy, per Qui-gon's dying wish. He threatened Yoda that he would go rogue, and train him without the approval of the Council if he must.

But let's get back on topic.

 

In the OT they don't make a distinction between space travel/flying on the ground when they use the term "pilot" which was why Luke considered himself and other people called him a good pilot even though he may never have left planet himself, could have just been flying the T-16 around shooting womp rats. As for how amazed Obi Wan was with Anakin's force powers he sure seemed impressed when he ran Qui-Gon's blood sample. And after Qui-Gon's death he insisted on training Anakin and said he would go against the council if he must.

 

I'm not changing the goal posts or changing the topic. I'm addressing your point about my opinion not being correct because it is not consistent with all six films. Clearly, I think that that standard is of no use.


And I'm sorry, but pretending like this slave boy Anakin fits the description given to us in ANH is something I just can't go along with. Pod racing or not.

How do you know a T-16 doesn't fly? Did you see him shoot these creatures in the film? Maybe it's done from the air?

 

double post

 

Perhaps it's because he thought "I met your father as a great pilot" was a more endearing way of remembering his friend and recalling him to that man's son than "he was a slave when I met him... of course that was before he became Darth Vader"?

 

Well, you go on believing your interpretation of the Force... that you admit is inconsistent with the movies.

Podracing is done in the air too.

And it does fit the description... just not in the way you or many other expected. In other words, "you assume too much" [/padme] I predict the ST will break more people's assumptions. in fact I'm hoping it does.

But just because something doesn't fit prior assumptions doesn't mean it's inconsistent. It just means it doesn't fit prior assumptions.

 

That doesn't sound like consistent movies, that sounds like excuse making for inconsistent movies.

If the films are inconsistent, I find this notion that my opinion on Yoda's lesson must be consistent with inconsistent movies to be bizarre.