CT Midi-chlorians were first conceived by George Lucas as early as 1977?

Well, given that such assumptions rely on the very theories and assumptions about how George 'wrote' the Force into the films that have been shown on the first page to be, er, a little different to what you want to believe, I'm not sure that your conclusions are exactly supportable. So, why does the Emperor regard Luke Skywalker as a threat? An equally valid answer is that, being Vader's son, he could confuse Vader's allegiance; if Luke was to become a Jedi, and Vader decided to try rope him in, then they could form a combination to overwhelm the Emperor. This inference is drawn out by the fact that Vader does ask Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor at the end of E.S.B.; also, given that the Jedi, enemies of the Empire, are supposedly pretty much extinct, then the emergence of a new one would of course pose a threat to the Empire regardless of who it was. And again, this may also have something to do with Luke being the last hope of the galaxy or whatever; fact is that these things—by taking a position of considering only the relevant films and that written before them—can be interpreted much more broadly than your narrow views projecting things back on the O.T. from things done afterward. And in R.O.T.J., it is stated that the Skywalker family 'is strong in the Force', but this is nowhere near as precise as 'Force ability is a genetically/biologically quantifiable thing'; even if it is genetic, it needn't make the Force genetic; perhaps Skywalkers are largely of a personality type that makes them more open to learning the ways of the Force; this can retain both a familial and a character aspect. Again, you display very narrow thinking in this regard, 'what was written [later] is the only possible interpretation [of things written earlier]. And the sarcasm does not become you.

 

Except that JW Rinzler admitted that the supposed 1977 quote about force predisposition was a fabrication. And the rest of your argument fails on that premise.
The original quote:

It's already been explained that you don't need genetic inheritance for something to 'run in the family'. And in any case it's difficult to say that such a thing is true when, according the PT, the Skywalker lineage only has two generations of force users at the time of the OT including Luke.

 

Also, saying that "the Force is strong in my family" is not equivalent to "my Force potential, as measured by microscopic life forms in my blood cells, is exactly 23000".

To put it another way, "the Force is strong in my family" is a statement that's analogous to "my family is full of brave individuals". Continuing with that analogy, you might expect a boy born to a family full of brave individuals to also grow up to be brave.....like his father before him. But it's not the same as saying "Oh yes, we tested his blood, and he has over 20000 Mici-dlorians, which means that this baby boy is very brave indeed". So to anyone offering the "but genetics were present even in ROTJ" argument, do you see the point I'm making? Yes, ROTJ suggests some kind of heredity, but there is a huge tonal difference between "runs strong in my family" and "his Midichlorian count is over 20000". So although the progression from ROTJ to TPM is logical and doesn't contradict anything, the two portrayals are hugely different tonally.

Now whether or not you like this shift is, of course, subjective. I would have preferred to stick with the OT's way of portraying the Force. Oh well. We can't always get what we want lol

 

Call me a bigot, call me a conservative but if any person just studies then taps into the Force, it looses it's mysticism or majic more then any "Force Bacteria" could do.

What if everyone had the X Gene? Marvel becomes boring. What if everyone was Meta-Human? DC becomes boring. What if everyone knew magic? Then Fantasy stories.......well you get the idea.

 

Nobody said it was easy; in fact the point (as Lucas explained) was that it was still difficult:

I love this leap inherent in your reply that suddenly everybody will be using the Force, when it in fact takes a personal receptivity; by contrast, in the P.T. using midichlorians, one apparently use it whether or not there is a personal receptivity.

 

That wasn't related on the topic. You just made baseless assumptions, therefore, I replied. Sorry if it didn't cut for you.

Deep? Who said I was "deep"? Expression of self is all it is to it. Nothing deep about it...

Also, listen to the link. Not read it(didn't I say no eyes no mouth?).

They don't dislike each other. They have a hard time with seeing common ground. Obi-Wan is trying to show Anikan the ways of the Jedi but he was not ready to be a Jedi teacher. Thus, that is why he has so much strictness to him. And Anikan, is rebellious. Those 2 don't Mix.



And I talking behind each others back? When?EDITin the manner you speak of, hating each other) The only time I remember talking behind someones back, was Anikan with the Tusken's and blaming Obi-Wan. Even then, he was in turmoil and pretty much didn't know what he was saying(making excuses pretty much). Obi-Wan did the same, saying Anikan was being arrogant because he lacks the ability to listen. In fact, don't almost all friends talk behind each others back, no matter good or bad?

????

Did I ever say that it was right for Anikan to treat Obi-Wan like that? Never.

That's just putting words into my mouth.

And actually, now that I think about it more, what is you're idealism on friends? Friends SHOULDN'T talk behind each others backs, but they can. True friends aren't all spiteful either, but they can.

I'm not JUSTIFYING their complications...Merely, disagreeing that they CAN'T be friends with the opposing aspects.

Saying people can't be true friends due to complications with each other doesn't sound right huh? Happened with a family friend of mine. We both were like Obi-Wan and Anakin for a long time(In a strange love and weird subversion within the heart. And we still sorta are) but we still love each other. We still are True Friends.

Also, you're Sig indicates something about you and me... And I just realized this whole conversation and the argument as a whole, and why It all was a reason in the first place.....

 

Let's use the example of Batman. He wasn't born with any sort of special gene; he's just an ordinary guy. But he went through a long period of intense training, discipline, and suffering to acquire the skills necessary to be Batman.

If I decided I wanted to be Batman starting tomorrow, could I do it? Of course not. In fact, I could never be Batman because I don't have the willpower, discipline, or bravery necessary to train to be Batman. So we're impressed with Batman, not because he was born with 23000 units of Superhero potential, but because of the strength of his character.

But still, I understand your point. In many cases, stories where the protagonist is born special do work. However, the way you portray this is key. Like I've mentioned before, it's one thing to say "Superman and Wonder Woman were fortunate to be born with these special powers", but it's another thing to say "Superman has 20000 Superhero-units while Wonder Woman has 22000 Superhero-units therefore Wonder Woman is stronger!". The former sets up a premise of superheroes being inherently special but then puts this on the backburner as you watch how they handle the great responsibility that comes with their great power. The latter puts the focus on numerically and objectively differentiating individuals which thus invites more numbers-driven discussions of "Superman's power level is greater than Bizarro's so I'm sure he'll win" instead of the character-driven discussions of "I just hope Superman can find an extra reserve of willpower to overcome this powerful foe".

 

What baseless assumptions? What on earth were those links needed for then if they weren't on topic. And I don't need being talked to about any 'no eyes, no mouth' fluff. You know very well that you are bringing this up because you consider it a way of getting your 'different' interpretations, whilst saying that they are more profound than those gleaned 'by eye or mouth' or whatever. Why resort to these things?

Actually, Anakin basically says that Obi-wan is the cause, or the epitome of the cause, of the isolation and trouble he feels in his life; 'Oh, if only I could be free of him, then my life wouldn't be as bad as I think it is'. When talking to Padme, he expresses feelings that range beyond that of a disagreement, he thinks that Obi-wan is jealous and holding him back in life; late, he also expresses gladness that Obi-wan is not around so he can do anything he wants. When they re-unite, Obi-wan's line to Anakin is sarcastic and quite hostile, and he does not really seem glad to see him.
And no, true friends do not speak negatively of each other to other people; both of them talk about the other in quite a hostile manner to other people: 'not only do I not really like this person, but I will tell others so that they can share this impression as well.'

I never talked about either's treatment of the other, and it takes a tremendous amount of dishonesty to claim that. I am saying that the hostility and animosity they show towards each other is incompatible with friendship. Such things break friendship up; in R.O.T.S., they appear to tidy over things more and are more open to each other about their problems with each other, so that they are reconciling their problems and re-establishing good relations, so one can describe them as friends there; but had they not made these things up and continued arguing, etc., then they'd have broken up for reasons that have nothing to do with the dark side.

There's complicactions, and then there's complications. I can disagree with friends on any manner of things, but disagreements are different to saying that a person is causing problems in your life and blaming problems on them in an attempt to externalise blame, which is what Anakin does. If two people have complications to the extent that they appear constant exasperated with each other, then they aren't at that time friends, they are more associates or partners. One can resume friendship, one can reconcile things, but if it got to the point where they would desire permanent separation, then they most certainly wouldn't be friends then, and it would have been caused by the 'disagreements', arguing, and the hostility; hence, it's not friendship. As they start off like this in A.O.T.C., any friendship is merely a presupposition that does not apply to the events of the film itself.

 

You still fail to see the point, so here it is for the last time.
The question I am talking about is;
If two parents have different midi counts, say one has 1000 and the other 500, what count will their child have?
Alternatives, 1000 or 500 or anything in between or it is totally random.
Given Anakin in the FILMS and how Luke and Leia were expected to have a high count because of his high count then the films very strongly imply that the highest count is always passed on.
THEN this means that the average midi count of the whole galaxy WILL always increase as low midi counts will slowly disappear and higher counts will become more and more common.

If some EU says that the highest count isn't passed on then I would say that is in conflict with the films. Again I am not talking about specific people here, just the population in general.
Also, both Obi-Wan and Palpatine expected Anakin's children to be strong in the Force. This implies that they knew from example that a high midi count is always passed on.

The End.

[/QUOTE]

Well Luke was given an adult choice to become a Jedi. Did Ben Solo make the same, adult, choice?
Or was he simply sent away by his parents? I think that TFA implies the latter given some of Leia's comments.
Anakin was a child and didn't make an adult choice, none of the other PT Jedi made an adult choice to become a Jedi.
As far as the films go, Luke is the only Jedi that made the choice as an adult.

@Arawn_Fenn

Yes but the explanation there was that their BRAINS were different.
Since using the Force is more of a mental discipline than a physical one, if a species has a more advanced brain, it is no wonder they are more adept in using the Force.
Compare and Ant with a Human, the human has a more advanced brain and thus in SW we see that humans are able to use the Force but we don't see ants doing the same.
So if an alien species has a more advanced brain than humans, their greater Force use is a No-Brainer

RE: the Force running strong in the Skywalker line.
I've made this argument in the past, you can look at it from a mystical POV.
The Force is at times spoken of in religious terms, "May the Force be with you:" is used a kind of blessing. So that the Skywalker line is strong with the Force could just be that they are somehow "special", or "blessed".

Also, in the ANH scripts, the young Jedi sometimes had a very famous father. "The Starkiller" or some such. In ANH Luke's father was said to have been a great pilot bu Obi-Wan and in a deleted scene, by Red Leader.

This is a common mythical trope, the hero has a famous father/ancestor and thus a famous name which sometimes makes the villains more afraid of them. That the hero isn't just a threat by themselves but they also have a famous name and can thus rally more people to their cause.
LotR uses this by having Sauron be a bit afraid of Aragorn and his legacy, that he is the descendant of the person that cut the ring from his hand and he even has the same sword. This makes Sauron act more quickly and a bit less careful.
So Luke being a Skywalker is more of a threat than just any guy training to become a Jedi.
He can rally the masses behind him due to his famous name.

RE: Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship or lack thereof.
To me the problem is that AotC had them be so much at each others throat but we hadn't really seen them becoming friends before that. In TPM, they barely know each other and Obi-Wan agrees to train Anakin, not due to his own faith in him but due to a promise to his master.
So he trains Anakin due to obligation, not friendship or faith in Anakin as a person.
Had TPM established and begun to develop their friendship, then seeing them at odds in AotC might not have been as much of an issue.
But AotC is pretty much the first we see of their "friendship" and far too often it shows the opposite of friendship. They gripe about the other, they argue and bicker and their tone is often quite unfriendly.
RotS did a far better job at this and here I could actually see some friendship.

In AotC I couldn't. I didn't see two friends, I saw two guys that had been forced together and neither could really stand the other. AotC Obi-Wan, if not for the promise he made to Qui-Gon, I could see him dumping Anakin first chance he gets. And Anakin tolerates Obi-Wan because he wants to become a Jedi not because of any warm feelings towards.
Even when Anakin says "He is like a father to me." to me it sounded fake, forced, like Anakin said it because it was expected of him and not because he really believed it.

Ex, Star Trek DS9 and Bashir and O'Brian, in the first season, I wouldn't say that they are friends.
They don't hate each other but there isn't much there to suggest any warm feelings.
Over the season they built that friendship until we saw that they really were friends. They could still argue and bicker but since their friendship had been established and developed, those things didn't make them seem any less friends.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Luke is the threat not because he could turn Vader away, which is evident in that Palpatine tells Luke that it cannot be done.

PALPATINE: "Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's. By now you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you."

He doesn't fear that Vader will turn away. Rather, he's more concerned about Luke becoming a Jedi and being able to destroy them. Something he states in TESB and in the revised rough draft of ROTJ, he believes Luke is not powerful enough to be the threat to him as he's blasting him. So the idea of wanting to destroy Luke and then having him join them, is more about what his worth as a powerful entity, than what he can do morally.

The Force itself is not genetic. The Force is the result of the creation of life and it's continual existence. The Force is another name for nature, or more aptly put, Mother Nature. The latter is a way of labeling nature as something that is almost sentient. The Living Force and the Will of the Force are extensions of that.

And I said that it doesn't matter. The counts won't change based on parental heritage. It's more random than that.

In the old EU, it was random and not always consistent. In "The Crystal Star", Hethrir had a strong connection to the Force. But when he and his wife Riallo had a son named Tigris, he was not able to connect to the Force. He didn't have the Midichlorian count necessary to use the Force and thus was as normal as Han and Lando. The Dorsk clone line did not have the ability to connect to the Force until the 81st clone was made. The Fel bloodline didn't seem to be Force sensitive until Roan Fel and many had believed that Jania Solo was part of that bloodline due to her relationship with Jagged Fel. The first two instances were before Midichlorians were introduced and the latter came afterwards. So there was no guarantee that a population boom was a factor.

And given that the Jedi have been around for a very long time, yet the highest count on record prior to Anakin was Yoda, I think it isn't an issue at all.

Anakin may have been a child, but he made the choice willingly. According to "Bloodline", Ben was an adult when he went to Luke.

Spoiler

He had only gone a few years prior to the start of TFA.

The details are minimal at best. It is unclear if he wanted to go and was denied by Leia until it was decided that he had to go, or if he didn't want to go and had to be sent. The only thing that is known is

Spoiler

he didn't know the full truth about his grandfather until he had been trained by Luke. Though it is unknown if Luke told him, or if Snoke did.

Either way, the training and experiences of the Jedi like Obi-wan and Qui-gon make up who they are, over having to choose to be a Jedi. They can still choose to stay or leave, which is where the Lost Twenty come from.

 

In Jedi Academy: Leviathan by the same author, Kyp suggests all Dorsks had the ability - it's just that Dorsk 81 was the first to discover he had it.

 

You don't need a midichlorian to say that some can tap in and some can't. Ironic that attributing a seemingly large number ended up making the force look smaller.

 

Need and want are two different things. Lucas wanted to express it in such a way that it was clear why one can and one cannot. The Force is still large. Only your perception is changed.

 

And in his attempt to make it "clear", he created more confusion and inconsistencies with this absurd idea. And made it look smaller.

 

How is there confusion and inconsistencies?

 

Except that tone ISN'T in the movies so the example doesn't apply.

This is something that comes up over and again and I just can't understand why anyone could get offended by applying something that isn't actually in the movies.

I find it rather odd to say the least that this obsession for midi-chlorian counts which is clearly NOT in the movies.

Qui-Gon is very matter of fact about the midi-chlorians. That his actions are based on his belief of the Force and the will of the Force and the strength of Anakin in the Force is very clear in TPM.

As ever the energy field of the Force is created by all living things, it surrounds and penetrates every living being. Every life form is connected to the Force. Some are more sensitive to the Force and have a stronger connection to the Force.

This potential can be measured by the midi-chlorian count but without actual training said being can't become a Jedi. Maybe a powerful Force user in some aspects but they will likely just think they are just very skilled at piloting or whatever.

Luke doesn't grow up with his father. He hasn't even heard of the Force in ANH. The only thing Luke has from Anakin is his blood which flows strong with the Force and therefore the midi-chlorians.

Obi-Wan and Yoda don't need to bother with any blood tests as they know already.

 

Yeah I know that specific tone isn't in the movies; I was just making a point that hard numbers are not necessary to show that our protagonists are special and that stories can actually be more character-driven without them.

My main problem with them (as I've said numerous times) is their usage as a plot device to objectively quantify Force potential. I would've preferred a different means of conveying that Anakin is special instead of a number. And after all that talk of him having a high Midi-chlorian count, what does he do with it in the following movies to demonstrate how powerful he is? Not much. He seems like just an average Jedi, which is just further evidence of how lazy it was to simply call him the Chosen One and talk about his high Midi-count and then call it a day. So not only can somebody's connection to a mystical energy field now be measured with an exact number, but now that is also being used as an excuse to tell the audience things instead of show it to them.

 

Far more than that. We know that midi-chlorian counts are really just identification tools used by the Jedi for the best possible trainees.

Those with higher midi-chlorian counts are that much more likely to have success but certainly not all do. That kind of background material really isn't going to be used in movies.

What hard numbers? We only get one number with Anakin that is higher than Yoda's (who has the previous high). The specialness of Anakin is secondarily from that. What it really is about is Qui-Gon believing he is a vergeance in the Force due to all the factors he encountered with the midi-chlorian count being only one among many.

The way Anakin was there to help them, the return of the Sith as Qui-Gon saw it put him in mind of the prophecy of the Chosen One because he believes Shmi that there was no father. So that plus his midi-chlorian count makes the connection to him that Anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians (through the Force's intervention).

Once again in ANH Luke is the son of a Jedi. That is also a fact. It instantly makes Luke special. This is furthered by him being Vader's son.

That Anakin was conceived by the Force and Luke is Anakin's son are devices that are applied to drive the characters.

This doesn't really happen though. All we know is that Anakin and Yoda's base connection to the Force is insanely higher than any other beings ever recorded by the Jedi.

Potential is just that. Without training it's only going to go so far. Anakin and Yoda are the exception of exceptions.

That already is in and all over TPM not the least of which is that he has no biological father.

Sorry? All what talk? It's one thing mentioned a couple of times in TPM and never again. I don't know what to say to this idea of how does he demonstrate his power when it's clearly obvious in AOTC and ROTS and referred to and demonstrated over and over again. No one "called it a day" In fact as seen in TPM the Jedi didn't care about the midi-chlorian count or place any real importance on it other than in the matter of fact way they deal with them. They are far more concerned about the way and will of the Force than worrying about numbers from a blood test.

I don't understand why you are placing things that don't actually happen into the movies and complaining about them being there and wishing they weren't when they actually are not there.

The only number we get is Anakin's in relation to Yoda's. No others. It's not mentioned at any other time. At the very most it's about potential but that is really a distinction without a difference when people talk about Force sensitivity. Clearly though every living being is connected to the Force not all of them have the same connection.

I don't know what you mean by tell the audience instead of show it to them. We are shown in TPM about Anakin's connection to the Force. Far better actually than Luke's. In comparing Anakin and Luke it's a no contest between them as we are actually shown over and again example after example of Anakin's connection to the Force. For Luke there is next to nothing in comparison. The major reason why Obi-Wan thinks Luke is strong in the Force is merely due to his being Anakin's son. There is nothing truly demonstrated in the movie by Luke before Obi-Wan meets him. He doesn't need to as he already knows. So in ANH we are actually told and not shown while in TPM we are shown at the same time that Qui-Gon is.

What also strikes me is that for some reason the very basic fact that Anakin has ultra strong Force potential is due to the Force creating him through the midi-chlorians is constantly overlooked. This in itself indicates that the Force can direct the midi-chlorians. So whether it's to create a life-form like Anakin (which is as far as we know unique) or to have any particular life-form have a higher midi-chlorian count and therefore a stronger natural connection to the Force in the first place.

The Jedi don't choose who is strong in the Force. They merely use criteria to select. The Jedi don't have families or selective breeding to create high Force sensitives or blood transfusions, clones etc.

So I really don't get what exactly why you are objecting to something not really in the movies themselves. People might as well object to Luke being a Jedi's son at all because that objectively quantified that the child of a Jedi is going to be more connected to the Force for no other reason than blood in the first place and even worse TESB make's it clear than as the son of Skywalker who was a super powerful Jedi that is the reason why Luke is potentially so powerful. This is emphasized in TESB as Vader's tests prove never mind that Obi-Wan and Yoda have been waiting and watching Luke his entire life. They didn't stumble on him and there is only one other they would consider and that turns out to be his sister.

The "objectification" of Force potential was already in the OT before we found out the full story. I'm not sure why but it seems as if some strand of story that had to do with anyone could tap into the Force (which is true with time and training) also meant that anyone could become a Jedi and gain superpowers (which is not as that being would need to be really strong in the Force).

 

And that's all that's needed to let us know that the Force has now been reduced to simple number crunching. All the other stuff could have been conveyed without that blood test and that exact number. Hell, I don't even mind if the plot point of him being conceived by the midi-chlorians was kept; I just don't like that it had to be quantified like it was.

Yes it does happen. Remember the "over 20,000....not even Master Yoda has a midi-chlorian count that high" line? That line was used to tell the audience that Anakin's Force potential is even greater than Yoda's. So it's a plot device used to objectively quantify Force potential.

And I liked that! Now if Lucas had only managed to find a non-numerical way to convey Anakin's connection to the Force, I would've liked it better.

Where in AOTC or ROTS does Anakin demonstrate that he's really powerful? Give me specific examples. Beating Dooku with his anger? Big deal; Obi-Wan beat Maul with his anger too. All Anakin shows in AOTC and ROTS is that he's just like any other Jedi. And he actually loses more lightsaber duels than he wins. Some Chosen One he is. But for some reason, we're supposed to think he's the most powerful Jedi ever. We are not shown this, but rather told this through exposition about how he's the "Chosen One" and how his midi-chlorian count is "over 20,000".

No matter how much you try to spin it, the portrayals of the Force from the OT and PT just aren't the same. The very idea that something mystical like the Force can be reduced to numbers is different. I'm not saying it's logically inconsistent. Just tonally different.

 

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No, the point is that Anakin falls to the dark side because of his abilities.​

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"What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by." ​

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--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary. ​

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AOTC establishes that Obi-wan finds Anakin's arrogance to be a result of his strong connection to the Force. What's easy for him is more difficult for someone else. But in his arrogance, he thinks that he should be more powerful than Obi-wan or any other Jedi. This arrogance is exploited by Palpatine and is reflected in the negative things Anakin says about Obi-wan, such as the idea of Obi-wan holding him back and that he is way ahead of him. And when he fails his mother, he feels that he needs to be more powerful in order to be the best Jedi ever. In ROTS, he's still obsessed with power which he brags about. Then he wants even more power and this is what Palpatine uses to seduce him to the dark side. But to tie it back to TESB and ROTJ, Anakin's injuries diminish him and leave him unable to overthrow Palpatine as he wants to. Not until Luke comes along and he wants to exploit him. But in the end, what he finally learns is that he had the power to stop people from dying. But it wasn't the power that he wanted, it was the power of love and compassion.​

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It wouldn't matter if there was a Midichlorian count, the films would still deal with Anakin being more powerful than the others and then being diminished. The number count won't change that. We see hints of it, but the tragedy is that he never gets to live up to his potential.​

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But it does to show why he is different from Yoda.​

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His being the Chosen One has nothing to do with his being all powerful and doing super things. The Chosen One is a person created by the Midichlorians, who will one day destroy the Sith. But because of how he was born, he winds up in a situation that will contribute to his fall from grace.​

 

Well his father-less birth and the implication that he was conceived by the midi-chlorians themselves is much different from Yoda.

Still, the point remains that the midi-count was given to us to demonstrate his Force potential, was it not? And we get two subsequent films where he doesn't do anything to indicate that he's more powerful in the Force than the average Jedi. So Chosen One or not, I think that makes it a lazy plot device.

And I would also like to stress, that my overall point is not to say that "the prequelz sux" because of the midi-chlorians (in case anyone was thinking that). I actually don't even mind a majority of their purpose. The symbiosis stuff, I like. The virgin birth, I like. The only thing I dislike is including an unshakeable number as an indicator of Force potential. That's it. And it's not even that I think it's logically inconsistent or that it doesn't make any sense. It's simply the out-of-universe decision to convey Force potential with numerical units that I disagree with. I don't like that something so mystical and ancient can just be measured like that as if somebody were using a scale to measure their weight.

 

Wrong. According to the aforementioned Rinzler, the only part of the passage in question that was added retroactively by Lucas was a part claiming "they have more midichlorians in their cells". You might have noticed that I specifically omitted any mention of that part because I knew all about Rinzler's statement to that effect. The material I referenced is not considered controversial as it was not cited by Rinzler as a later addition. And everything else I mentioned was from the actual OT itself, released to the public no later than 1983.

It's weird how I knew what the knee-jerk response would be, though. It's like I can see the future. Must be the midichlorians!

I don't think we agree on the definition of the word "shown".

Really? You think those things might be related?

If any Jedi - any Jedi at all - poses a threat to the Emperor regardless of who it is, then how exactly can Luke be construed as the "last hope"? Why aren't Ben and Yoda training other people? And if it's all about confusing Vader's allegiance then how is anyone else a threat?

Only in your fantasies. I specifically only cited things that were done between 1977 and 1983. There's no back-projecting; it's just that the back-projection narrative is already written, ready to be deployed no matter what I do. It's kind of like... resorting to "Rinzler busted Lucas" after I deliberately declined any mention of the material retroactively added by Lucas.

This is becoming increasingly incoherent. The question is the genetic aspect of innate Force potential. The Force is an energy field generated by living things. What does "make the Force genetic" even mean?

You're heading down a useless ( though well-traveled ) blind alley. Do you somehow imagine that all Skywalkers we've seen on film had the same personality type? Your choices are either nature or nurture. Either "personality type" is itself genetically passed down or it is not. The fact remains that ROTJ told us the ability passed down in the Skywalker line is not the result of nurture but of nature. Leia is guaranteed this potential by virtue of biological lineage alone, despite being raised in an entirely different environment from Luke and by different people, and despite having a different personality type.

 

Right and because of that, his connection to the Force is stronger than Yoda's.

Lucas wasn't interested in showing Anakin bringing down a Federation starship with the Force. He was telling us that Anakin's abilities put him ahead of the other Jedi and this results in his arrogance and laziness in AOTC, which then comes around to his failing to save his mother and getting spanked by Dooku. Then we get to ROTS where he keeps wanting more power because he thinks that he should be all powerful due to his Midichlorian count.

 

Arawn_Fenn, Then show what Lucas said, and in particular, how they align with the 1997-type view of the Force with midichlorians. Samuel Vimes made an observation earlier that such a vision of creatures having greater or lesser ability to use the Force still does not include midichlorians.

Mental factors may be passed down through genetics, and if these affect one's ability to learn and control the Force, then that provides the possibility of a genetic factor without needing objects which are genetic or biological things such as midichlorians to connect with the Force. That you act as if you didn't get this is not doubt deliberate.

And 'personality type' obviously does not depend on anything like midichlorians, or anything like that; and nature and nurture do not exist in vacuum, certain things can effect each other, life experiences, etc.; and that, going off S.W. rather than the P.T., all three were at one point the noble type crusading for a cause (more or less), and this may show a common personality strand.
However, that is me merely positing an alternative; my point is that it would have been possible to make the story so that there is not some biological determiner of the Force such as midichlorians, that is, there needn't be a single thing determining 'Force-ness' that they can measure, etc. You are acting as if there is no other way that that could have done, thereby showing how blind you are.

Although only through exposition.

And there is nothing to show us that he is ahead of the other Jedi, certainly not in absolute terms, and after T.P.M., only a few times through exposition in relative terms. As for the end of T.P.M., he may be impressive for a nine-year-old, but we don't know what a fully-trained Jedi would do, although I suspect that they wouldn't do things by accident; but, the end of T.P.M. is the only demonstration that Anakin is ahead of Jedi at some point during the process of becoming a Jedi. The problem is that, in A.O.T.C. and R.O.T.S., we are told that he is supposedly ahead in some way or another, but not shown.

 

But also supported by his being the only human to race pods and his actions during the Battle of Naboo.

Again, you're missing it. Anakin thinks that he is ahead of Obi-wan.

ANAKIN: "Master Obi-Wan manages not to see it. Don't get me wrong. Obi-Wan is a great mentor. As wise as Master Yoda and... as powerful as Master Windu. I am truly thankful to be his apprentice. In some ways-- a lot of ways-- I'm really ahead of him. I'm ready for the trials... but he feels that I'm too unpredictable. He won't let me move on."

But Obi-wan can see the truth.

OBI-WAN: "If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you do your wit... you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

ANAKIN: "I thought I already did."

OBI-WAN: "Only in your mind, my very young Apprentice."


MACE: "The boy has exceptional skills."

ANAKIN:"But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him, well, arrogant."

As to what Anakin would do during the Battle of Naboo, the fact that he was able to survive and destroy the Federation ship as he did, shows that even without Jedi training, he's very gifted. Yes, we know what a fully trained Jedi can do. That's the point. It is the same one in ANH. Obi-wan, if he had lived, would have gone in and made the shot on the Death Star because as a Jedi Master, he knew what he could and couldn't do. But he's dead and thus he needs Luke to make the shot, but Luke has almost zero training. Yet he survives the battle because of the Force guiding him.

But the real point of Anakin's story is that he has the tools that he needs, but his arrogance is what hurts him. It is what is holding him back. It's not about the feats, but about his mindset in being a Jedi.