Midichlorians - Does Size Matter?

I still don't buy all that immaculate conception stuff...

... It's so easy to lie about such a thing... I mean if your mother conceived you with a wookie, she's not going to want to shout that from the rooftops, is she?

I always felt that in the way Pernilla August delivered those lines that Shmi was holding something back. Not that anything in RotS will highlight this, its just how I felt when I watched TPM... Still how I feel when I watch it.

 

"I mean if your mother conceived you with a wookie, she's not going to want to shout that from the rooftops, is she?"

If you saw my back, you'd think my father was a wookie...

 

I think what started the idea of midichlorians was a method to explain why Vader's combat skills in the OT are far inferior to the expert combat scenes in the PT. This is because Lucas can't really go back and reshoot the fight scenes to even come close to the beauty of that seen in the PT.

This was fine for the most part except that when Dooku dispayed his expert talent at combat (through special effects) this creates a problem in explaining why Obi-Wan in Episode 4 is so lackluster in his style and ability.

I think Lucas would have been better off to simply leave things as they were regarding the force. A much easier way to explain things would be that both Obi-Wan and Vader were holding back in the OT and Luke was simply not as skilled and barely meets the skill of a newly trained knight in Ep 6. Midichlorians could have been left out of it. Qui0GOn could have simply "felt" the vergence in the force within this child of Shmi's. That would have been ok. It still would have tied in the living force as the cause according to Jedi prophecy and theory.

Power in the force, was always a matter of concentration of what you were doing. This has been established in the OT as well as the PT. Lack of concentration is almost always the downfall of the force users. Given the technology today, Lucas could easily spruce up the lightsaber duel in Episode 4 since it consists of a hooded Jedi and a helmed Vader .. no problem digitally.

A few shots of fancy footwork would tie in the force ability not affected by age well. Yoda and Dooku are clearly not hindered by age when using the force in the PT. Its as if the force is summoned to complete the task at hand, and then some physical breathing and such sets in afterwards. I mean Yoda still needs his cane, but not when he uses the force to fight for him, via powers and saber technique. The same can reasoned with Dooku and then later Obi-Wan and Vader. This is esspecially true with Sidious.

But besides all that, this never really needed an explanation. The footwork Vader uses in ESB and ROTJ work well in that he is mostly holding back because he doesnt want to kill Luke, and Luke is still not as skilled as a fully trained Knight. Also Obi-Wan didn't seek to kill Vader but wanted to lay down his life to set an example for Luke to follow, as well as be a guide for him.

Midichlorians at the end of the day really are kind of redundent. The force by any other name is still the force, so why not just call it that and have Anakin's potential be something that's felt?

The again, Perhaps "feeling" the force is part of Qui-Gon's lessens that Yoda and Obi-Wan carry with them after Ep3 and throughout the OT. Maybe the Midichlorian approach to the Force turns out to be false at the theoretical level? Maybe this is something Qui-Gon passes on to them?

Really though, to heed the topic of this thread, aside from Lucas saying so, there is nothing in the OT that suggests he lost any kind of force power at all from his injuries. If anything the duels of the PT sort of destroy that idea since physical age and strength have little or nohing to do with it. It's just a film visual problem with having the duels be more spectaculer in the PT than in the OT. But again as I pointed out above, changes in motivation could have explained that with ease.

I suppose if we have to assume Vader lost power and it is infact due to his injuries, I am more inclined its due to his mental health and lack of faith in himself to overthrow the Emperor. Throughout most of the OT he is schemeing to defeat the Emperor and take his place. It's only when he lets go of his hate and willingly sacrifices himself for his son that becomes truly powerful and conjures enough power through the force to destroy the Sith Lord regardless of his physical form.

At the end of the day, we'll have to see the completed Series and then decide if the midichlorians serve a purpose being added to the context of the force. Perhaps they were introduced to merely point out that believing in the force is no

 

The Force is as physical as it as mental and spiritual. If you lose some of your control of your own body, you will also lose some of your physical control of the Force. It has nothing to do with midi-chlorians.



Vader is weaker
/LM

 

It would seem that the midi count is represented as a ratio, not a cumulative amount swimming in ones blood. If it were the latter, you could have some massive dumb beast of an animal have a relitively low count for his size but because he is so big may have 90,000 midi. aka the most force sensitive thing in existance. That way, it explains yodas size and ability and anaking size and abilities given their respective midi counts.

 

"We also get into this thing of what are Midichlorians, how they work which advances a little bit of the story of the Force, and how does the Force work, how we come to know the Force which is part of Anakin?s training in learning to become a Jedi. And take the idea of the Force one step further. The Midchlorians are kind of a side issue. Not in a sort of spiritual, metaphysical part of the Force, but the more practical, biological, physical part of the Force, or how we come to know the Force, which has to do really with the genetics of why some people have more in tune to the Force than others."

--George Lucas, Star Wars-The Phantom Menace: The Annotated Screenplays, 1999.


"The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force."

--George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

There's no question about the virgin birth. It's been confirmed by Lucas. No reason to question it. *waits for quote from d-s*

 

D-S, isn't there a quote from Lucas saying that, post amputation, Anakin is only 80% as powerful as the Emperor, while he was more powerful pre-amputation because he had limbs? When we say "powerful" we mean in attunement to the Force, not in ability to move.

 

Restricted by a metal suit?? Right, like how restricted Greivious is by his metal suit-body. The suit has nothing to do with it. There is documentation of Vader dueling several amped up assasine droids at the same time just for practice. According to Lucas there is nothing wrong with his movement, no more than there's anything wrong with Obi-Wan's or Luke's movement. People are judging Vaders movements by the duels seen in the OT, however they don't note that Obi-Wan and Luke matched Vaders movements and they were not encumbered by "metal suits". 1977-83 Earth filming technology was the restricting force not the SW universe Vader suit.

What we see is clearly Lucas, once again, making up a complete new story to try to explain another story gap, and in the process creating a couple new gaps. Midichlorians were only introduced so that Lucas didn't have to spend 6 years defending "immaculate conception", until we are able to find out it was really the Sith who were behind it. So Lucas creates this looney story are some force bugs, so we can say, "ahh, biological on biological creating life...that's not so bad".

Then we come upon a new problem, (a gap created by the force-bug gap explanation). Now we know Anakin has more force-bugs per cell then anyone, and we also know Anakin wants to destroy the Emperor. So then we ask... "if Anakin is so strong, why does he not destroy the Emperor in their 23 years together? So Lucas creates another lame gap explainer "he lost his arms and legs, and all his midichlorians fell out". The new gaps created from this explanation have already been pointed out in this thread. Yoda has less midichlorians per cell, and still has less cells than Anankin with no arms and legs. And what do arms have to do with force lightning? Don't limit the supernatural with your finite vision. Just because fingers are easy, and used to cast force lightning, I would argue that they are not required. And not all metal conducts, and who says even if the metal in Vaders arms is conductive that they are grounded. Why couldn't he use them to pass the lightning? Just because he didn't cast it, doesn't mean he couldn't.

So long story short - Vader is stronger than Palpatine, he never overthrew him, because then it makes the OT very boring. The thing to remember is there are many things we know now that we didn't know when the OT first came out until Lucas revealed them becuase it makes the movie more exciting. What happens if it's 1977, and the opening text scroll says:

Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents (Darth Vader), Princess Leia
(who is the daughter of Vader, and also the sister of a guy named Luke,
but none of them know it yet) races home aboard her starship, custodian
of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy...

Because of the way the movies are made there are going to be plot gaps when you make the end first. Lucas would be better off ignoring the complaints of "PLOT GAP!!" from the whiners, and just leave well enough alone instead of digging the hole deeper.

 

The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 141-142:

While waiting for the next setup, Ian and George talk about how Palpatine will ultimately be disappointed with Anakin, after he's been permanently maimed by Obi-Wan: "He's less than what you bargained for," Lucas says. "By the end of the film, he's just a man in a shell. So when this young kid [Luke] comes along..." Lucas also explains that Darth Vader can't generate Sith lightning because he doesn't have real hands or arms.



/LM

 

I never thought, until Internet discussions, that Anakin didn't have an actual physical father. Then I thought maybe I was the stupid one and everybody knew something I didn't, but my initial reaction to Shmi's statements about there being no father was that she either didn't know who the father was, or it was someone who left her life shortly after conception. Possibly her duties as a slave involved activities that might lead to baby Anakin.

Could have been Sidious, even. (Wouldn't that have been a bit of a plot twist?)

 

Here's my input:

Screw Lucas. The only thing that limits Vader is mabye the suit and mechanical limbs, but in terms of raw force power, as in to what extent can you can you something - the things he can do- his power is still the same. Now, he may not be able to do all things wit the force, but things, he can do like a force choke, he can do with his same force strength if not better. (before the suit)

From my understanding, the midiclorians are a count of to what extent you can do an ability, not which abilities you can do. They dermine how powerful you are in a numerical sense, rather than a widespreed general sense. So take an ability, force choke. Anakin's number, or extent, of how strong that fore choke will be isn't limited or pulled back by losing his limbs. Losing limbs is irrelevent to that, for he still has the same amount of midiclorians in each cell, therefore making his power in a numerical sense, the same. But it keeps grower after he gets the suit, as usual.

The things that limit him are less agility, perhaps. That and mabye mechanical limbs.

Here endeth the lesson.

(From my point of view. )

 

Midichlorians attune you to the Force. I don't think it has as much to do with little abilities as it does with, say, the ease you can do them, the clarity of your vision...if all beings are vessels of the Force, than a high midichlorian count just means that you are, say, a more effective conduit.

And yeah, Alison, Anakin had no father at all. He was created by the midichlorians. If the lines in the movies referring to this weren't enough, then the quotes from George Lucas should be.

 

in terms of power, midis are the potential scale and set the ceiling for the person. however, as many have pointed out, there is no direct corelation to midis and force power. although Anakin is jimi hendrix, it doesnt mean he will pick up the guitar

as far as lucas quotes regarding midis, i dont find a paragraph of jumbled thought very convincing

as for vader losing power, i am not sold on that one either. one thing i am pretty opinionated about is that i do not believe limbs are required for force usage. i think when the jedi or sith use their hands to manipulate the force, it is merely a cue for the audience. i see no importance of needing one particular body part over another to use the force

 

I didn't see the Emperor as fat at all.

 

I think that Vader's physical manifestions of Force powers( lightning, force speed, jumping etc) were limited by his injuries, but the rest of his abilities like telekinesis and telepathy weren't harmed at all. I don't believe that vader lost any power, but since he's a cyborg he cannot use his physical abilities like he used to.

 

i can accept that he is limited in a non-force physical way because of a handicap. but i see no reason why he shouldnt be as powerful a force user as say, dooku

 

Lesson the first, the origin of Anakin Skywalker.

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

Lesson the second, Darth Vader's injuries. Unlike Grievous whose entire body was replaced with a bionic shell, Vader loses his limbs and has damaged lungs.

"I didn't have a very specific idea about what Vader might look like underneath the mask. I knew that he had been in a lot of battles, and at one point I thought that he had had a confrontation with Ben and Ben had sent him into a volcano. But he was all but dead, and basically he was manufactured back together even though there was very little left of him. So he is kind of this three-quarter mechanical man and one-quarter human, and the suit he wears is like a walking iron lung. By the time we got to the third film, we were able to articulate what Vader looked like underneath the mask, but until then I just knew that he was pretty messed up simply because he could barely breathe or speak."

--George Lucas, The Annotated Screenplays; 1997

"Darth Vader was half machine, half man, and that's where he lost a lot of his humanity. He has mechanical legs. He has mechanical arms. He's hooked up to a breathing machine."

--George Lucas, The Annotated Screenplays; 1997.

"He (Prowse) couldn't move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren't going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy (Anderson) in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter. For the final film, Hayden [Christensen] and Obi-Wan -- I mean Ewan -- took it very seriously; they trained for months."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Magazine; 2005.

Lesson the third, why Vader and Sidious want Luke Skywalker.

"After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done--well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways--he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there?s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he?s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn?t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You?ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, ?Star Wars: The Last Battle,? Vanity Fair, 2005

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! Th

 

twice on one page?

 

I've got most of those Lucas quotes memorized by now.

 

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, "Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?" He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

this may be my favorite of all Lucas quotes. after you read it, its so obvious. but many missed it without the backstory

 

Exactly. I never picked up on it until I read the article this past summer. Upon rewatching the OT as part of my Saga endeavor, I realized that he was right. It was there, we just didn't see it because we were all so blinded by how cool ANH was.

 

Actually, it only stops Force lightning. He could still throw objects, but he's in WAY too much shock.