Midichlorians...

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Scott3eyez, May 22, 2003.

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  1. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    "The Force is an energy field, created by all living things."

    "The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is... Life creates it... makes it grow..."

    "Midichlorians are microscopic life forms, that live in all living things."


    Clever idea, eh?
  2. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
  3. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    Ummm, was there a discussion meant to follow? If so, I didn't get it...
  4. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    It actually works if you think about it because if they wasn't life, then midichlorians would not exist and to an extent, the Force would not exist either.
  5. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>Ummm, was there a discussion meant to follow? If so, I didn't get it...

    The idea was to divert a debate from the Bashers Sanctuary, but it clearly failed.

    Possibly because I had to rush off to buy my girlfriend champagne before I could get this one started properly...

    Here's some food for thought then; assuming that the droids meeting Luke in ANH was because they were guided by the Force, does that mean that despite not having any midichlorians between them, they are force-sensitive?
  6. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    No, they aren't life. Machines don't have the Force. ;) However, they were guided by the Force.
  7. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    Could be.

    Qui-Gon *does* mention that there exists the "Will of the Force," and being guided by this "will" could conceivably affect even inorganic automatons like the two droids.
  8. Frank Danger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 1999
    star 1
    I think one of the one of the reasons that Gushers get so frustrated when people complain about Midichlorians is because they misunderstand the Basher criticism of the little devils.


    The most common defense of Midichlorians that I've heard is that they do not change how the Force works, they merely provide a more in depth explanation of why the Force works.

    I agree with this point, but it doesn't address the number one criticism of Midichlorians expressed by Bashers. Most TPM disloyalists don't like the Midis because of the explanation they provide. A New Hope conveyed the Force as a spiritual, faith-based discipline that could be learned but never really explained in scientific terms. There was an air of mystery about the Force that led to an impression of mysticism. Taking away that mystery makes the Force itself seem so much less intriguing.
  9. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    If one does not believe that the droids (machines) could be affected by the Force, it is plausible to believe that instead Luke was guided to the droids and the other life forms (those on Leia's ship) were guided by the Force to end up neat Tatooine where they would be caught under seige by Imperial troops.

    I do not believe, however, that the concept of midi-chlorians removes the mysticism of the Force, but merely adds to it. Technically, the midi-chlorian concept is an inherent Hinduist idea, wherein each person contains a part of the divine essence. The atman, the part of each that is divine, serves as a conduit for the divine in the same manner the midi-chlorians sustain life and serve as a conduit for the Force. The symbiotic relationship established in the Force by the midi-chlorians (?You must feel the Force around you; between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between the land and ship? ) is also mentioned in Hindu teachings; ?Everything in life, whether living or not comes from the Brahman. Every creature, every individual, every stone, every tree ? everything in existence ? has its source in the Brahman?.

    Enough ranting for now... :)
  10. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    but hindu teachings do not require higher concentrations of divine essence to make followers better hindus.
  11. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    "but hindu teachings do not require higher concentrations of divine essence to make followers better hindus."

    Neither do the Jedi...there is no stipulation that one has to have a certain number of midi-chlorians to believe in the Force or follow Jedi teachings, merely that a concentration is required to become a member of the Order itself. A higher concentration does not necessarily make a "better" Jedi, since Anakin, a Jedi of prophetic midi-chlorian concentrations, is seduced by the Dark Side.
  12. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "A New Hope conveyed the Force as a spiritual, faith-based discipline that could be learned but never really explained in scientific terms."

    By the time ANH comes around, there only will be a few remaining Jedi. I don't know how well-known the whole midichlorean thing is to non-Jedi. To outsiders, or people like Han who obviously don't know everything about the Jedi Order, it may just seem like the Jedi pick random babies through some spiritual method. They might not know that they test for midichloreans, and it may just seem like a "hokey religion" to them.
  13. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "merely that a concentration is required to become a member of the Order itself."

    there you go.
  14. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    Ok, DrEvazan; it's kind of like monasticism, you don't have to be a monk to be a Christian, but you have to be Christian to be a monk. Monks are merely believers that devote their whole life to the conservation and practice of faith the way Jedi devote their whole life to the Force. Others still follow and practice the religion, but are not consumed with it in daily life. Jedi is a term that qualifys Force believers the way monk qualify's an order of Christians.

    How about that?
  15. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>>but hindu teachings do not require higher concentrations of divine essence to make followers better hindus.

    So you're saying that Jedi teachings require higher concentrations of midichlorians to make followers better Jedi?

    So that would make Anakin the best Jedi ever!

    I think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere...
  16. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Here's some food for thought then; assuming that the droids meeting Luke in ANH was because they were guided by the Force, does that mean that despite not having any midichlorians between them, they are force-sensitive?


    I don't think it is required you be a living organism for the Force to influence your path, whether once or many times, in your life.
  17. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "So that would make Anakin the best Jedi ever!"

    some would call him powerful, and very strong with the force...

    yoda: Ah! Father! Powerful Jedi was he! Hmmmm. Powerful Jedi.
  18. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    And why was he so powerful? Why is the Emperor even more so?

    Vader: "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master."
  19. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    I don't think it is required you be a living organism for the Force to influence your path, whether once or many times, in your life.

    I agree; a thing does not need to be alive and/or sentient for it to be a part of a symbiotic relationship or the all-pervading web that is the Force. The Force holds influence over all things, living and non-living. "You must feel the Force around you; between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between the land and ship."

    Also, DrEvazan, power does not equal greatness. Lord Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
  20. Frank Danger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 1999
    star 1
    By the time ANH comes around, there only will be a few remaining Jedi. I don't know how well-known the whole midichlorean thing is to non-Jedi.


    Perhaps it's completely unknown to non-Jedi, but that's not the point. In IV through VI, we receive all our information about the Force from Obi Wan and Yoda. In TPM, Obi Wan's is the one, at Qui Gon's request, that test's Anakin's blood sample and tests it for Midichlorians. He obviously has an extensive understanding of the little suckers, and says, "Wow, that's even more than Yoda!!" Obviously Yoda was tested, obviously he knows what they are. Why don't they mention Midi's to Luke if they're so awful darn important? To me, this whole it's-the-age-of-darkness-and-everyone-forgot-about-Midicholorians defense is a pretty unsatisfying way to explain the discrepancy.
  21. Melda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    Perhaps Obi-Wan and Yoda purposely avoided the issue with Luke (as they did about many things) so that the topic of 'unusual concentrations' would never crop up. Can you imagine that.

    LUKE: "Who had the most?"
    OBI-WAN: Ah, why Anakin-- dah, I mean Darth Vader, I mean, go talk to Yoda. (disappears)

    And they could also be trying to avoid the 'arrogance' issue that Anakin has with his midichlorian infestation.
  22. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>Why don't they mention Midi's to Luke if they're so awful darn important?

    Who said they were so important? They "tell us the Will of the Force", but they didn't make Anakin listen to it, did they?
  23. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    So that would make Anakin the best Jedi ever!

    Maybe he's not the "best", but certainly he is the "One". And why is that, acording to TPM? He's got more midis than everybody else, including Yoda. I'd say midichlorians are the main reason the Jedi decided to accept Anakin as an apprentice.

    So, they sure are important, and the more the better, according to the above reasons.

    So, in the end, it was a bloody blood test that resolved it all. Very "spiritual" indeed...
  24. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    So, in the end, it was a bloody blood test that resolved it all. Very "spiritual" indeed...

    I think I'll stick to my monastic example for this. The blood test may not seem very "spiritual", however, it is a way of proving that a person has what it takes to join an order of people who devote their life to the Force. One does not simply become a monk or a priest, one goes through years of study, testing, and religious preparation. Hence, it is spiritual to the Jedi in the sense that it is part of their initiation rituals.

    Midichlorians may not have been mentioned to Luke because there simply was not enough time. There was so much that Luke had to learn that maybe midi-chlorians just weren't considered important enough at the time; especially since he does not begin recruiting until the EU, where ways of gauging Force potential are explored.
  25. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "Why don't they mention Midi's to Luke if they're so awful darn important? To me, this whole it's-the-age-of-darkness-and-everyone-forgot-about-Midicholorians defense is a pretty unsatisfying way to explain the discrepancy."

    Well, I don't think Yoda or Obi-Wan had a midichlorean testing machine. So, bringing it up would have been a moot point, since they had no way to test Luke. Also, they could have been afraid to tell Luke, because look what happened to Anakin, who knew that he had a high midichlorean count.
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