Midichlorians...

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Scott3eyez, May 22, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "One does not simply become a monk or a priest, one goes through years of study, testing, and religious preparation. Hence, it is spiritual to the Jedi in the sense that it is part of their initiation rituals."

    and without midichlorians in the blood, all the study, testing and religious preparation would be a waste of time. you are really comparing apples and oranges.

  2. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    But midichlorians are present in all living things. Most Jedi have a higher concentration, which only means that they have a better potential of becoming a Jedi. I see it as being similar to how someone who is 6'6" has a better potential of being a professional basketball player than someone who is 5'2". That doesn't mean that someone who is 5'2" can't become a professional basketball player, it just means that they have to work that much harder, and they have to more or less "go against the odds".
  3. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    but someone who is 0'0" cant compete at all.

    the 0'0" would be a person with no midis in their blood, of course.

    and isnt it far more interesting to watch a 5'2" person become a great ball player than someone who is 7'?
  4. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>I'd say midichlorians are the main reason the Jedi decided to accept Anakin as an apprentice.

    Let's look at TPM shall we;

    Qui Gon tells the Jedi Council about Anakin's midichlorians,
    The Jedi meet Anakin, and decide not to train him.

    Kind of shoots that theory down...

    >>>>and isnt it far more interesting to watch a 5'2" person become a great ball player than someone who is 7'?

    Sure- if you're telling a story about the player who does it all aginst the odds.

    But if you're telling the story of the Jedi who had it all on his plate and threw it away, then you'd obviously have him 7' tall.

    I wonder what Luke and Leia's midichlorian counts will be... It would certainly make for a better story if they were both pretty low, IMHO...
  5. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    But if Anakin's blood test showed a low midi count, Qui Gon would probably not even bother to take him with him.

    As for the monastic thing, I still don't see the point. A monk never becomes a monk because of something in his body, but something in his mind. It's a matter of faith, not blood.

    edit: but I think the real point here is this: were midichlorians really necessary for the film? Did we really need this thing introduced in Star Wars? Do we need to know how C3PO functions and thinks? Do we need to know how Darth Vader breathes and moves around? Do we need to know the technical details of the Death Star to believe in the Star Wars universe? Can't we accept lightsabers without knowing how they work?

    No!

    So, why? And if midis are so irrelevant as you are all saying, then again I have to ask: Why invent them now? You can't have it both ways. Or they are important and really change the way we look at the Force and try to be a technical explanation to what used to be a spiritual thing or they are completely un necessary and useless to the saga. So why defend this?

    Why?
  6. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>So, why? And if midis are so irrelevant as you are all saying, then again I have to ask: Why invent them now? You can't have it both ways. Or they are important and really change the way we look at the Force and try to be a technical explanation to what used to be a spiritual thing or they are completely un necessary and useless to the saga. So why defend this?

    Midichlorian counts are
    a) A part of the selection process for the Jedi, which we knew absolutely nothing about prior to TPM, but which is obviously important information, and
    b) Related to the prophecy of the "Chosen One", which again, we knew absolutely nothing about prior to TPM.

    They also thematically relate to a whole bunch of stuff that I can't be bothered to type right now, but I will do so when I have time.

    >>>Do we need to know how C3PO functions and thinks? Do we need to know how Darth Vader breathes and moves around? Do we need to know the technical details of the Death Star to believe in the Star Wars universe? Can't we accept lightsabers without knowing how they work?

    Erm... exactly what is it that midichlorians "explained" to you?

    Every explanation for the Force is in the OT, not the PT, and is quoted right at the top of this very thread.
  7. Ultimate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 3
    "but someone who is 0'0" cant compete at all.

    the 0'0" would be a person with no midis in their blood, of course. "

    Those people don't exist in the Star Wars Universe. Everybody has them.
  8. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    Good point, Ultimate. There is no such thing as 0'0'' height, and there is no one in the Star Wars Universe without midichlorians; thus, DrEvazan, we are not "comparing apples and oranges".

    As for the monastic thing, I still don't see the point. A monk never becomes a monk because of something in his body, but something in his mind. It's a matter of faith, not blood.

    First, read the aforementioned explanation. Second, being a Jedi has everything to do with mindset. Remember, "A Jedi must have the deepest committment."

    We're not saying that midi-chlorians are irrelevant...the point of this was that they do not take away from the mysticism of the Jedi in the first place.

    J-Solo, you cannot prove that Qui would not have taken a person of lower midi-chlorian count with him, because we are not presented with that situation in the PT. Also, we can assume that he would do his best to recover any potential Jedi candidate regardless of count as it is part of his nature and connection to the Living Force; Obi-Wan quotes, "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life form?"

    :)
  9. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    What purpose do midichlorians serve?

    Well, there's a shift in Anakin's philosophy mirroring the political transformation in the galaxy. As a Jedi, Anakin follows the Will of the Force, "told" to him by the thousands of midichlorians in his body. As a Sith, he does what he wants, manipulating the Power of the Force for his own purposes.
    This mirrors the shift from the democratic Republic (in which the Supreme Chancellor acts according to the will of the people, told to him by the thousands of representatives in the Senate) to the dictatorial Empire (in which the Emperor does what he wants, manipulating his power for his own purposes.)

    There's the physical transformation which goes along with this- as Anakin becomes "more machine than man", his body which is a biological machine made up of thousands of organisms (highlighted by TPM's emphasis on his midichlorians- "life forms living inside your cells"- on top of what we know from the real world about the antibodies, bacteria etc. which are essential to life) is slowly turned into a single artificial machine. However, the fact that they are talked about in terms of concentration means that whatever is left of Anakin inside will still have the same midichlorian count, he cannot escape his own nature, of who he is. The "conflict within" that Luke talks about in ROTJ is now physically represented by this duality of the "evil and twisted" machine and the man inside.

    This all comes down to the theme of symbiosis- of not putting yourself before others.

    TPM appears to be showing that Jedi are somehow superior to "normal" people, because they are trained depending on their midichlorian counts- so only the "best" are trained. However, like much of TPM, the truth beneath the surface is different- taking the rest of the saga into consideration, the fact that Anakin ends up turning to the Dark Side turns this idea on it's head, meaning that by the end of the saga, they are emphasising the importance of the individual's strength of character, rather than some physical criteria. Despite his midichlorian count, Anakin is not immune to the temptations of the Dark Side.

    This boils down to what is probably the fatal flaw in the Jedi Order- the fact that in striving to avoid people falling to the Dark Side, they kept themselves cut off from society, and keep their teachings secret. They have isolated themselves, and put themseves and all their teachings (the Jedi Archives) in a big tower, which I think is safe to say will not be standing by the end of Episode 3 ("A Big Explosion", anyone?)

    Which explains why Luke wasn't told about how to choose who he was going to teach when he was told to "pass on what he had learnt"...

    And all of that is brought into the saga by about 20 seconds of dialogue in TPM. And there's probably more that you could read into that I haven't touched on here (such as the parallel with mitochondria in the real-world; the life forms living inside the cells of every living thing which live in symbiosis with the host cells, providing energy in return for a hospitable environment.)
  10. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "A New Hope conveyed the Force as a spiritual, faith-based discipline that could be learned but never really explained in scientific terms. There was an air of mystery about the Force that led to an impression of mysticism. Taking away that mystery makes the Force itself seem so much less intriguing. F. Danger.

    I will also add that the words of Qui-Gon to Anakin CONTRADICT everything Ben/Yoda says to Luke in the OT.

    They contradict each other because Lucas is contradicting himself!

    Midi's suck.


  11. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "TPM appears to be showing that Jedi are somehow superior to "normal" people," Scott

    Yeah. Now they have a BLOOD DESEASE!

    Pretty lame compared to the Spiritural/Religious only aspect that was in the superiour OT. I have a quote that was sent to me that proves that Lucas meant the Force as spiritual/religious only when he created it...

    Here: "The force evolved out of various developments of character and plot. I wanted a concept of religion based on the premise that there is a God, and there is good and evil. I began to distill the essence of all religions into what I thought was the basic idea common to all religions, and common to primitive thinking. I wanted to develop something that was nondenominational but still had a kind of religious reality."

    The words of George Lucas from the Ep1 scrapbook.

    And for those of you that have a problem with the meaning of the word "nondenominational" here is a link. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=denominational


  12. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    You see people..The reason many people became fans, and identified with the Jedi, Luke.. Is the fact that they applied/heard the same things that were taught to them by their religions (belief in self/knowledge/faith=God/power/success) in the words of Ben, and Yoda. Luke went through the same thing with those two that they go through in whatever religion they follow or know. They saw Luke as themselves, and used this as inspiration in their own lives, to be successful in whatever they decided to do in life. Everyone CONNECTED with the religious aspects!

    It was religious/spiritual ONLY before. GL should've kept it that way.
  13. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>It was religious/spiritual ONLY before.

    Not in the original Star Wars film it wasn't.

    "The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

    That is all that the orignal Star Wars film told us about what the Force is.

    So, where's the religion and spirituality in THAT explanation?

    Is it more spiritual than saying magnetism is an energy field created by all electrical currents?

    No. It's just as scientific, and more scientific than anything the prequels have said about the Force.

    >>>I will also add that the words of Qui-Gon to Anakin CONTRADICT everything Ben/Yoda says to Luke in the OT.

    No, they don't. Unless you can back up that claim?

    >>>Yeah. Now they have a BLOOD DESEASE!

    Hmmm- apparently a blood disease that every living thing has then.

    [EDIT- welcome back to the boards, by the way.]
  14. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    Scott3eyes, I admit that I'm impressed by how much thought you put on the matter, and I see some of your points. But I also think that most of what you said about the Jedi (well...all of it) really has nothing to do with midichlorians. Yes, the Jedi shown by the prequel are arrogant and decadent, and they can't see what's happening in front of their eyes, but that has nothing to do with the midis. As you pointed out, and you were right, they are not impressed by Anakin's blood count.

    So, again, why invent them?

    But let's look at it from another POV. You said something about mitochondria. We all have them, right? You know, I just realize what's my greatest problem with the midichlorians. It's the TEST and the COUNT. If they're just a way for all living things to "communicate" or to "feel" the Force, and if it really doesn't matter you blood count, why do the tests? Why is Qui-gon so impressed by Anakin's count? Why was OB1 so impressed by it? (he even says something like "wow, it's bigger than Master Yoda's)

    Lucas could have introduced them and his simbiosis phylosophy without introducing the tests also.

    If you want a real world paralel, imagine that somebody said that humans can only believe of feel the presence of God because there are some living things inside us that make the connection. Does it change God? No, but doesn't it change the way we look at religion? Of course. If they made a film about that wouldn't people feel outraged and disgusted? Sure.

    That's the way a lot of us feel about midichlorians.
  15. YodasHouse Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2003
    Did GL get this idea of midichlorians from the whole "sad cells, happy cells" theory.

    I heard some stars in Hollywood follow a nutrition program that cleanses the "sad cells" from one's body.

    Sad cells suppossed to be cells that contain the memories of bad experiences in our lives or part of our bodies we arent working on enough.

    Happy cells supposed to be the parts of our body that remember good experiences, and parts that are payed attention to, or worked on etc.

    Some believe this can also include past life memories. That the cells hold on to all those emotions or memories, like a computer's memory file.

  16. Obi Quiet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 1999
    star 1
    We're still two years away from finding out if what I'm about to say is true, but...

    First off, I'm with those who wonder what the point of introducing Midichlorians was. I'm not especially offended by the concept of midichlorians, but if they're important, why weren't they mentioned in AOTC? AND, if they're NOT important, if they were just a plot device to get Qui-Gon to notice Anakin, were they even necessary? Couldn't Qui-Gon just feel that "the Force is with him" the way Vader feels Obi-Wan and Luke when they're around?

    Here's what I think. I'm guessing that Midichlorians are just one of the many things that the Jedi Order puts WAY too much emphasis on. Any bureaucracy tends to bog itself down in rules and regulations over the course of time because, in the beginning, those rules and regulations WORK. As they figure out more things that work, they figure out more rules and regulations. Before you know it, there are so many rules and regulations that they cease to function effectively. It's the case with the Republic itself, and I believe it's a similar case with the Jedi Order.

    Jedi candidates are identified by midichlorian count. A jedi "master" can only take one Padawan at a time. Emotional attachments are discouraged (or forbidden outright) because they lead to desire and want, which leads to fear of loss, which leads to hate and suffering.

    I mean, think about it. The Jedi Order has almost literally confined itself to an ivory tower, out of touch with the "real world" of the Galactic Republic.

    Love itself is apparently forbidden when, in fact, love leads to the creation of new life. Well, didn't Yoda tell Luke that life creates The Force and makes it grow? Shouldn't The Force (and, by extention, the Jedi Order) ENCOURAGE love? It seemed like Anakin was being facetious when he told Padme that Jedi are "encouraged" to love (from a certain point of view). But maybe he was actually RIGHT.

    I'm guessing that somewhere between Episode II and Episode V Yoda recognizes the errors of the Jedi philosophy, and one of those flaws may be the over-importance of rules and science in determining how Jedi should behave. So, we may yet find out that the idea of Midichlorians IS an error...but an intentional one. And, that the philosophy which Yoda imparts to Luke is, in fact, the correct one that the Jedi SHOULD have been following in the PT.
  17. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "The Force is an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

    That is all that the orignal Star Wars film told us about what the Force is.

    So, where's the religion and spirituality in THAT explanation?"
    Scott3

    Sorrounds us, penetrates us. Binds the Galaxy together?...Sounds like he is talking about a God, or religion I say.

    If you hear no religion or spirituality in that then you better read my posts again.

    And for the proof that Ben/Yoda's words to Luke contradict Qui-gon. Go watch the OT again as well. How about the scene where Yoda raises the X-Wing in ESB for example? What did Luke say after Yoda demonstrated what faith and belief in self can do?

    "I don't believe it!"

    And Yoda responds: "that is why you fail."

    Anyone on our world that follows any religion goes through the exact same thing in following/finding their faith/belief. Just like Yoda showing Luke he will find salvation/power if he finds belief/faith in God. (The Force)

    Go ahead. Ask me again "Where is the religion, and spirituality?" Scott.

    Try again, and this time read that Lucas quote on the Force I posted last pg. How many times does he use the word "religion" in it?



    Peace.
  18. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    Another point about why midi's were not needed..

    In the PT it looks like Qui-gon only finds out about Anakin's potential after that stupid blood desease test. That scene also contradicts what is said in the OT because you can see them. (Obi looking at the screen readout) So now you can see God? (The Force) Why can't Qui-gon sense something about Anakin with the force alone, like Vader sensed the Force in Luke in ANH?

    contradictions, contradictions, contradictions....

    To those that say Luke, and Leia are strong in The force only cause they have alot of the blood desease, I say they were choosen by The Force, Like God blessed Moses or the House Of David in the Bible. the Force blessed Luke/Leia.

    That's how one can say what happened in the OT. Since the Force pretty much represents God by Ben's words.

    Lucas has contradicted himself with the PT.

    Midi's suck.
  19. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    It all depends on your interpretation. I can tell that you're not going to be convinced otherwise.
  20. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    Looks like you know you can't refute me.

    I'm not surprised.
  21. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    I can't refute you because I know you won't change your mind.

    Others have explained things, and I could explain them again. You still wouldn't change your mind. You'd still see the Force as a religion, and you'd still see the prequels as messing everything up.
  22. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    For you YodaJeff..

    "The force evolved out of various developments of character and plot. I wanted a concept of religion based on the premise that there is a God, and there is good and evil. I began to distill the essence of all religions into what I thought was the basic idea common to all religions, and common to primitive thinking. I wanted to develop something that was nondenominational but still had a kind of religious reality."

    The words of George Lucas from the Ep1 scrapbook.

    And for those of you that have a problem with the meaning of the word "nondenominational" here is a link. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=denominational

    Go ahead say it was not just a religion before..

    Just admit that I've destroyed anyone that even thinks of refuting.


  23. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    On second thought, I have nothing better to do right now...

    "I will also add that the words of Qui-Gon to Anakin CONTRADICT everything Ben/Yoda says to Luke in the OT."

    How so? Ben and Yoda never say that the Force is a religious thing. That was your interpretation. One doesn't need a high midichlorian count to believe in the Force, and a midichlorian count only seems to measure potential. Since midichlorians are present in all living things, everyone has some sort of potential.

    "They contradict each other because Lucas is contradicting himself!"

    People watching the films in order from 1-6 won't see a contradiction.

    Midi's suck.

    "Yeah. Now they have a BLOOD DESEASE!"

    It isn't a blood disease. Midichlorians are in every living cell.

    "Pretty lame compared to the Spiritural/Religious only aspect that was in the superiour OT."

    "Lame"? "Superior"? Sounds like your opinion. Midichlorians help explain why only certain people can become adept Jedi. The mystical/spiritual aspect is still there. Midichlorians are in every living organism, and it seems like explaining why certain people have a higher midichlorian count isn't possible, and therfore could be spiritual to people. I wouldn't be surprised if pregnant women tried certain things while pregnant to increase (or decrease) the concentration of midichlorians in their unborn child. I wouldn't be surprised if the SW Universe's version of tabloids had stories titled "Sleeping while hanging upside down from a tree will help increase your child's midichlorian count" or "Don't want your child to be a Jedi? Research proves that drinking blue milk decreases your unborn child's chances of having a high midichlorian count."

    "I have a quote that was sent to me that proves that Lucas meant the Force as spiritual/religious only when he created it...

    Here: "The force evolved out of various developments of character and plot. I wanted a concept of religion based on the premise that there is a God, and there is good and evil. I began to distill the essence of all religions into what I thought was the basic idea common to all religions, and common to primitive thinking. I wanted to develop something that was nondenominational but still had a kind of religious reality."
    "

    The "God" decides who has higher midichlorian counts, and decides whether people use those powers for good or evil. Just like how people believe our God decides what happens in our lives.

    "You see people..The reason many people became fans, and identified with the Jedi, Luke.. Is the fact that they applied/heard the same things that were taught to them by their religions (belief in self/knowledge/faith=God/power/success) in the words of Ben, and Yoda."

    That is the religious aspect of the Force. It's still there now. It might not be as evident in the prequels because the Jedi are trying to explain too many things with science, and are forgetting that science can't solve everything.

    "Luke went through the same thing with those two that they go through in whatever religion they follow or know. They saw Luke as themselves, and used this as inspiration in their own lives, to be successful in whatever they decided to do in life. Everyone CONNECTED with the religious aspects!"

    I don't know about that. To me, Luke's training seemed to be more physical than spiritual. If anything, I'd say that Yoda and Ben were more like personal trainers than religious figures. Just like certain sports and exercising methods, concentration and a clear mind help with the ability to use the Force.

    "It was religious/spiritual ONLY before. GL should've kept it that way."

    That's how you interpreted it, and that's your opinion.

    "Sorrounds us, penetrates us. Binds the Galaxy together?...Sounds like he is talking about a God, or religion I say."

    "Surrounds us... penetrates us" Sounds like he's talking about something that's inside every living cell to me.

    "If you hear no religion or spirituality in that then y
  24. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    stewart-18, you have not destroyed all those who would refute you...some of us just aren't online all the time; I have been in school and sick...

    Anyway, it seems like, as others said, that you are not going to change your mind no matter what we say, and there's nothing we can do about that. It also appears that you have not read through the entirety of this thread, because many points you have addressed have already been discussed. Anyway...

    imagine that somebody said that humans can only believe of feel the presence of God because there are some living things inside us that make the connection. Does it change God? No, but doesn't it change the way we look at religion? Of course. If they made a film about that wouldn't people feel outraged and disgusted? Sure.

    That depends on your religion. As I have already said, something in you that connects you to the divine is the basis of Hindu belief; I'm sure they would not feel disgusted and it would not change their view of religion. The PT backs up all of the religious dogma and mysticality he included in the PT, it merely adds more and reinforces other ideas. Lucas' states, "I wanted to try to explain in a different way the religions that have already existed." He also states that he wanted to take, "all the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and easily accessible construct." If you look carefully at the movies, this is what he does. If you would like to read the term paper I wrote about religion in Star Wars, it would explain this better. The midi-chlorians do not suck, but they are a part of a different religion included to make the Jedi a non-denominational religion. The fact that the Jedi rely on tests is relevant to their downfall and the fact that it is a way of deciding who would become a Jedi; they cannot just take everyone with a possible count like everyone cannot be a priest or a monk, they must display a certain amount of religious knowledge and faith, among other things.

    I believe we have already gone over the blood disease part; it's not a disease in their galaxy since life cannot exist without it.
  25. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "You'd still see the Force as a religion, and you'd still see the prequels as messing everything up." YodaJeff

    What did Tarkin say to Vader about the force?...

    Something like: "You are the last of that old religion[/b] my friend."

    Yeah I still see it as a religion/God ,and the PT has messed it all up Jeffery.

    Try again.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.