Midichlorians...

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Scott3eyez, May 22, 2003.

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  1. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    For you YodaJeff. And I'm starting to think you must be that Jeffwangarrd at the official site that butted heads with a member that shared my views of this.

    "How so? Ben and Yoda never say that The Force is a religious thing. That was your interpretation. One doesn't need a high midichlorian count to believe in The Force,.."

    How about Tarkin saying it was religious to Vader. Han dissing it as a "hokey religion." Rebels saying "may The Force be with you." Which is very similar to us saying "God bless you." See, those two phrases have similar meaning.

    And it's true what you say about high midi count "not being needed" to believe in The Force, so why have it to begin with?

    "People watching the films in order from 1-6 won't see a contradiction."

    Yes they will. You better hope they are mentioned in Ep3. I also bet that GL will add them to a future new special edition of Eps 4-6 just to cover his ass on this. And you'll eat it up I assume.

    "It isn't a blood disease. Midichlorians are in every living cell."

    Ok it is'nt a desease.. It's worse. It's a sad edition to the saga.

    ""Lame"? "Superior"? Sounds like your opinion."

    Yeah it is my opinion. You got a problem with that?

    Too bad.

    "I wouldn't be surprised if the SW Universe's version of tabloids had stories titled "Sleeping while hanging upside down from a tree will help increase your child's midichlorian count" or "Don't want your child to be a Jedi? Research proves that drinking blue milk decreases your unborn child's chances of having a high midichlorian count."

    There you go, making up crap to support yourself here. You Lucasites always do this. I must let you know that Shmi must've had a blue milk blackout. That's why she can't remember who Anakin's father was.

    See? I can make stuff up too.

    "The "God" decides who has higher midichlorian counts, and decides whether people use those powers for good or evil. Just like how people believe our God decides what happens in our lives."

    Wrong again kiddo. We decide what happends in our lives. It figures you don't know what religion is. Now I ask you, why should there be something betwen The Jedi & The Force if there is nothing between God & us? Midis are a foreigen object. We don't use one to get in touch spiritually with God.

    "It might not be as evident in the prequels because the Jedi are trying to explain too many things with science, and are forgetting that science can't solve everything."

    No it's because Lucas is trying to explain things with science where it is not needed to begin with. So we get the contradiction.

    "I don't know about that. To me, Luke's training seemed to be more physical than spiritual. If anything, I'd say that Yoda and Ben were more like personal trainers than religious figures. Just like certain sports and exercising methods, concentration and a clear mind help with the ability to use the Force.

    It was both. Go listen to Yoda's words to Luke, during those scenes. Concentration/clear mind is religious.

    "That's how you interpreted it, and that's your opinion."

    Yeah it's my opinion. You got a problem with that?

    "Surrounds us... penetrates us" Sounds like he's talking about something that's inside every living cell to me.

    How can a cell inside you also surround you at the same time? Like I said before, it sounds more like Ben is talking about a spiritual entity to me, and alot of smarter people.

    "There may very well be religion or spirituality in there. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't religion and/or spirituality in the prequels."

    Don't say "very well may be.." There is religion/spirituality there. You are too blind to see/hear it. Stop drinking that blue milk I say. There is none in the PT because it is replaced with nonsence science talk.

    "It's not very different than people lifting weights. A small guy might be able to lift more than a big guy, simply because he is able to focus on it more. Does that mean that weightl
  2. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    stewart-18, I do not appreciate your blows of my intelligence through PM or otherwise.

    How about Tarkin saying it was religious to Vader. Han dissing it as a "hokey religion." Rebels saying "may The Force be with you." Which is very similar to us saying "God bless you." See, those two phrases have similar meaning.

    Just because Tarkin does not believe in the Force does not make it any less true to Vader or any other person who follows it. Tarkin does not understand Vader's beliefs; the Jedi are dead.

    And it's true what you say about high midi count "not being needed" to believe in The Force, so why have it to begin with?

    This has been discussed and explained many times. It shows how the Jedi's reliance on trivial matters and self-imposed isolation leads to their downfall. It does not prove anything true or untrue about the Force's mysticism.

    "People watching the films in order from 1-6 won't see a contradiction."...Yes they will. You better hope they are mentioned in Ep3. I also bet that GL will add them to a future new special edition of Eps 4-6 just to cover his *expletive deleted* on this. And you'll eat it up I assume.

    Lucas does not need to cover himself on this, since close analyzation of the philosophy and religion behind the movies make it work. And yes, we may eat it up, but that is our decision, one, obviously, that you do not need to follow. There is no contradiction; Lucas merely tells us more about the Force than he had previously revealed. Remember that the PT shows pre-Imperial Jedi destruction, meaning there would be more existing information and knowledge for the Jedi to exhibit and share.

    Ok it is'nt a desease.. It's worse. It's a sad edition to the saga.

    Again, your opinion.

    Yeah it is my opinion. You got a problem with that?...Too bad.

    No, I don't. I have a problem with you insulting my intelligence through post and PM.

    You Lucasites always do this. I must let you know that Shmi must've had a blue milk blackout. That's why she can't remember who Anakin's father was.

    If you cannot accept or appreciate Lucas' art, then I suggest you don't watch the movies or do anything Lucas or Star Wars related.

    "The "God" decides who has higher midichlorian counts, and decides whether people use those powers for good or evil. Just like how people believe our God decides what happens in our lives."...Wrong again kiddo. We decide what happends in our lives. It figures you don't know what religion is. Now I ask you, why should there be something betwen The Jedi & The Force if there is nothing between God & us? Midis are a foreigen object. We don't use one to get in touch spiritually with God.

    You obviously do not understand the concept of religion in the way we are speaking of it. Many people believe there is something between G-d and us, especially Hindus as I have explained countless time. The atman, the part of us which is divine, connects is to the
    Brahman the way midi-chlorians connect the Jedi to the Force. Religion, if you need a technical definition, is "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith." You have also insulted many other religions here by saying that G-d does not control our actions and the way we use our powers of good and evil. Many believe in predestination, prophecy, and fate. The Force and religion in Star Wars are meant to be a conglomeration of modern religion to inspire faith, as stated by Lucas himself in a Time magazine interview.

    "It might not be as evident in the prequels because the Jedi are trying to explain too many things with science, and are forgetting that science can't solve everything."...No it's because Lucas is trying to explain things with science where it is not needed to begin with. So we get the contradiction.

    Agreeing with the first part of the statement because the Jedi are supposed to be in the process of deterioration. Hence the need for Anakin's prophecy of balance, getting rid of the corruption and uselessness so the Jedi c
  3. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "I do not appreciate your blows of my intelligence through PM or otherwise."

    You're just upset cause I deciminated your view on this.

    "Just because Tarkin does not believe in the Force does not make it any less true to Vader or any other person who follows it. Tarkin does not understand Vader's beliefs; the Jedi are dead.

    I'm, not surprised you missed the point I was making to Jeff. That Tarkin and other characters in the OT referring to The Force as a religion, proves it was a religion only in the OT.

    "Lucas does not need to cover himself on this,"

    Yes he does. He tried with his soft excuse on the DVD that he had them in mind from the beginning. Sure you did Lucas.

    "There is no contradiction."

    Yes there is. Watch the films again.

    "I have a problem with you insulting my intelligence through post and PM."

    All I did is tell it to you like it is... If you can't take it..

    "If you cannot accept or appreciate Lucas' art, then I suggest you don't watch the movies or do anything Lucas or Star Wars related.'

    I appreciated what he did in the OT. Again you use the typical praiser excuse "don't watch it then!" To defend Lucas. For this reason he has no respect for you. Since he knows you'll blindly follow and fill his pockets. Which is why he used an over abundance of CGI to distract you from the truth.

    Good business man thinking from him I say. I have to let you know here that he's not a film maker now. Don't let the fact that he goes behind a camera fool you. I started a thread on this topic but it got locked.

    "It "surrounds us" and "penetrates us," like the Tao. "The Tao pervades everywhere." (The Tao-te-ching).

    So you agree it was all religious/spiritural.

    Good. You'll soon see my wisdom.

    "How do you know these are Earth expressions? Have you met any extraterrestrials lately?"

    You know what I was saying. Stop nitpicking.

    "In Christianity, Jesus of Nazareth is G-d made flesh and in Star Wars, Anakin is the Force made flesh."

    Lucas could've spent time creating a father for Anakin. The "I don't know line" from Shmi was bad. She had a blue milk blackout I say.

    Just an example of lazy writing.

    "I repeat that, the reason many identify with the PT, is that the religious motifs are repeated and expanded upon."

    I say many are just going for the eye-candy SFX. Which are overdone to distract them from the many faults in the film. Only lame science was repeated here.

    "I believe not."

    The destruction has begun.
  4. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    You're just upset cause I deciminated ypur view on this.

    No, I am perturbed that you have the audacity to be condescending to me and my intelligence.

    That Tarkin and other characters in the OT referring to The Force as a religion, proves it was a religion only in the OT.

    I believe that it was a religion in both. The midi-chlorians do not take away from the mysticism; the PT merely makes the Jedi religion institutionalized instead of its OT decentralization.

    Yes he does. He tried with his soft excuse on the DVD that he had them in mind from the beginning. Sure you did Lucas.

    You are not the voice in Lucas' head and thus do not know what he thought or is thinking, but if you wish to assume, far be it for me to stop you...

    "There is no contradiction."

    Yes there is. Watch the films again.


    I hold to my comment

    All I did is tell it to you like it is... If you can't take it..

    You did not "tell me like it is", you insulted my intelligence. Anyway, both of our opinions are strictly that, opinions. I can take it, but I ask you to be more diplomatic and less condescending in your statements. Thank you.

    I appreciated what he did in the OT. Again you use the typical praiser excuse "don't watch it then!" To defend Lucas. For this reason he has no respect for you. Since he knows you'll blindly follow and fill his pockets. Which is why he used an over abundance of CGI to distract you from the truth.

    I do not blindly follow Lucas; I have as many criticisms as the next person, but you are new here and have not seen the threads I created many moons ago when I was new here in 1999, especially since many were lost when the boards changed servers. I was not distracted by the overabundance of CGI (I have opinions on that as well but have chosen not to express them here as they are irrelevant to the topic) and I have analyzed much of this in depth.

    Good business man thinking from him I say. I have to let you know here that he's not a film maker now. Don't let the fact that he goes behind a camera fool you.

    If he can make money, then good for him.

    "It "surrounds us" and "penetrates us," like the Tao. "The Tao pervades everywhere." (The Tao-te-ching).

    So you agree it was all religious/spiritural.


    In both OT and PT.

    Good. You'll soon see my wisdom.

    I will not be forced to believe the opinions of others...as I replied via PM, I am not a follower. Hence, I agree to disagree...

    "How do you know these are Earth expressions? Have you met any extraterrestrials lately?"

    You know what I was saying. Stop nitpicking.


    You first.

    Lucas could've spent time creating a father for Anakin. The "I don't know line" from Shmi was bad. She had a blue milk blackout I say.

    Just an example of lazy writing.


    Once again, you have missed the religious references and symbolism Lucas has worked to infuse into Star Wars.

    I say many are just going for the eye-candy SFX. Which are overdone to distract them from th emany faults in the film. Only lame science was repeated here.

    If you may label me, then I may reciprocate. This is the opinion of someone who has taken no time to analyze the religious interpretation. No movie, or any form of art worthy of that name, is one-layered. People miss the point when they do not interpret and take things at face value. I have explained my opinion on "lame science" as you so nicely put it and will not repeat myself. Perhaps I will post my term paper...

    The desruction has begun.

    Ummm...no.

    ~Again, have a nice day :)
  5. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    stewart-18, stop being condescending and rude in your posts and private messages. You are assuming and interpreting things yourself, and then criticising others for doing the exact same thing. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and saying things like, "I've destroyed you", or "I deciminated your view on this" doesn't help the discussion any, and just makes it look like you're extremely arrogant and close-minded.
  6. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    I'm just playing with you all.

    Chill.
  7. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "No, I am perturbed that you have the audacity to be condescending to me and my intelligence."

    Never did that.

    "The midi-chlorians do not take away from the mysticism;"

    Yes they do. Science/biology and religion don't mix well.

    "You are not the voice in Lucas' head.."

    I don't have to be. It is quite obvious that he heard the uproar over midi's, and said that to deflect them. Just like when he stated after TPM got panned that the film was only "for 12yr olds anyway". Hmmm.. BEFORE TPM Star Wars was considered multi-generational. Why the change now GL?

    I'll let you figure that out, and you don't have to be in his head to do that.

    "You did not "tell me like it is", you insulted my intelligence.

    Never did that, but if thinking that way makes you happy..

    "I have as many criticisms as the next person,"

    Let's see them. Send them by PM to keep this thread on topic.

    "If he can make money, then good for him."

    Yeah, more good for him if he has fans that blindly accept anything he throws at them. So why should he respect them? Why should he have people that will push him to challenge himself (his ideas) more if his average ideas are good enough for you right?

    Hey I have high standards, you should have them too.

    I know Lucas does not need them.

    "Once again, you have missed the religious references and symbolism."

    I missed nothing. I know about the "virgin birth" stuff. It was still not a good explanation by Shmi through. Gve up the blue milk I say.

    It causes blackouts.

    "Perhaps I will post my term paper..."

    E-mail it to me with your photo.




    Peace.


  8. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    Never did that.

    I don't think I have to comment on this...

    Yes they do. Science/biology and religion don't mix well.

    What about the Christian science church? And what about Thomas Acquinas and those who used scholasticism to uphold the dictates of religion?

    I'll let you figure that out, and you don't have to be in his head to do that.

    As far as I'm concerned, TPM for me remains multi-generational as long as you remain in contact with your imagination and inner-child for some things. Otherwise, the intellectuals can still have a field day.

    Let's see them. Send them by PM to keep this thread on topic.

    Too bad you weren't here when I was posting them...

    Yeah, more good for him if he has fans that blindly accept anything he throws at them. So why should he respect them? Why should he have people that will push him to challenge himself (his ideas) more if his average ideas are good enough for you right?...Hey I have high standards, you should have them too.

    Debating issues like this are not blind acceptance. My standards for the movies have been fairly high, I simply choose not to express certain irrelevant opinions here.

    I missed nothing. I know about the "virgin birth" stuff. It was still not a good explanation by Shmi through. Gve up the blue milk I say.

    You have missed it, or refuse to accept the symbolism. If what Lucas does is not good enough, there is little anyone can do to convince you otherwise. I ask you to explain how it is not a good explanation especially when Anakin is the personification of the Judeo-Christian savior, granted that Lucas capitalizes on the violent savior of the Book of Nicodemus.
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "You obviously do not understand the concept of religion in the way we are speaking of it. Many people believe there is something between G-d and us, especially Hindus as I have explained countless time. The atman, the part of us which is divine, connects is to the
    Brahman the way midi-chlorians connect the Jedi to the Force."

    the atman is not a physical "cell" in the blood, it is akin to the western idea of the soul, not something that can be determined by science or with a blood test. midi-chlorians are actual, testable elements in a person's blood, and have no place in a discussion of religion, nor do they bear even the slightest resemblace to the atman.

    get it yet?
  10. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    They will never get it Dr. Eva.

    So I say again.. Science and religion do not mix well.


    Peace.

  11. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    Actually, the atman is left fairly open to interpretation, so it is possible that it is part of a person's cell. Hindus believe that life cannot exist without the atman; Jedi believe life cannot exist without midi-chlorians. Thus whether it can be tested does not matter, since our society may be too primitive to test the level of divinity in our genetic make-up, if such a thing is possible. Remember, in the Star Wars Universe, they can travel faster than the speed of light...we have yet to make it out of our solar system.

    Anyway, the fact that the Jedi are relying on something that can be, in the words of Elizabeth Lowell, "weighed or measured or touched"," leads to their downfall.

    They will never get it

    Our opinions differ, this does not mean the end of the world. Your opinion may be different, but no one's opinion is more correct than anyone else's. We can agree to disagree and be done with it...
  12. Melda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    "it is akin to the western idea of the soul, not something that can be determined by science or with a blood test."

    Yet.

    :) May I point out that many years ago it was imposible to determine if someone was sick by a blood test, or even someone's lineage. With advances in the method of science many things become blindingly obvious. Just because it cannot be detected and measures does not necessarily mean it will always be that way.

    EDIT: Bah, I was beaten to it :p
  13. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    Sorry, Melda :D

    I really like your example though, I didn't think of that! :)
  14. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    You all better hope they are mentioned again in Ep3.
  15. Melda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    (laughs)

    That's okay. First in, best represented ;)

    When I saw the movie back in 1999 I thought the concept of midi-chlorians was 'bloody' clever... I personally could not understand why people had a problem with it... at least until visiting these boards and reading about people's reasons, that is :D

    (I still things it's clever, though)
  16. Melda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    "You all better hope they are mentioned again in Ep3."

    Yes, I certainly do. :)
  17. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    You all better hope they are mentioned again in Ep3.

    If not, Lucas will simply fall prey to the same amount of criticism as before... :D
  18. Melda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    Well... in A New Hope we have Obi-Wan giving Luke an explanation of the Force, then in The Empire Strikes Back Yoda gives him an extended version of it. Maybe we'll get a second, expanded version of the workings of midi-chlorians?
  19. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    You mean in a future edition of Ep's 4-6?

    That will only prove that Lucas is covering up his tracks.
  20. Melda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 1
    (laughs)

    No, I actually meant an expanded explanation in Episode III :p
  21. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Actually, the atman is left fairly open to interpretation, so it is possible that it is part of a person's cell."

    yes and its possible it is a backwards flying duck with horns, but its not.

    "Hindus believe that life cannot exist without the atman; Jedi believe life cannot exist without midi-chlorians."

    you mean Jedi believe that life cannot exist without midi-chlorians only since TPM, before then we have no idea what they believed, and evidence in the OT proves quite the contrary.

    "Thus whether it can be tested does not matter, since our society may be too primitive to test the level of divinity in our genetic make-up, if such a thing is possible. Remember, in the Star Wars Universe, they can travel faster than the speed of light...we have yet to make it out of our solar system."

    your "thus" doesnt connect to anything. "thus" you are just making things up now. completely hypothetical and speculative and nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but how else do you compare apples and oranges and make it sound like it is an honest comparison?

  22. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "you mean Jedi believe that life cannot exist without midi-chlorians only since TPM, before then we have no idea what they believed, and evidence in the OT proves quite the contrary."

    I think that it would all make sense to someone watching the films 1-6. In the OT, the explanations given expand on the Force, not on midichlorians, which are the focus in TPM.
  23. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    yes and its possible it is a backwards flying duck with horns, but its not.

    Maybe one day it will be proven to be; this is interpretation.

    you mean Jedi believe that life cannot exist without midi-chlorians only since TPM, before then we have no idea what they believed, and evidence in the OT proves quite the contrary.

    Evidence in the OT does not prove the contrary. By the OT, the Jedi's learning has been lost, and Obi-Wan and Yoda need to train Luke for the task at hand, without time for extraneous knowledge. As someone discussed earlier, they may have feared to let Luke know about midi-chlorians because of the consequences of knowing his "power" or potential for it that led to Anakin's downfall. They knew they had placed too much emphasis on it before.

    your "thus" doesnt connect to anything. "thus" you are just making things up now. completely hypothetical and speculative and nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but how else do you compare apples and oranges and make it sound like it is an honest comparison?

    It is not irrelevant, since we were discussing the relation of atman to midi-chlorians and the basis of being able to detect or assess the divine. Second, it is an honest comparison for the reasons stated. It is an honest comparison. The Force and the Jedi are a conglomeration of modern religions, especially Buddhism, Hindusim, and Judeo-Christian concepts. Thus we are not comparing apples and oranges. This argument is becoming redundant now, since we are repeating what has already been discussed.
  24. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "discussing the relation of atman to midi-chlorians and the basis of being able to detect or assess the divine"

    but thats just it, there is no relation, the atman is unmeasurable, unquantifiable, undetectable, and is spiritual in nature rather than the total opposite - midichlorians which are tangible, measurable, concrete, non-spiritual, actual enities/bodies in the blodstream.

    apples and oranges.
  25. Jade's Fire2003 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 4
    but thats just it, there is no relation, the atman is unmeasurable, unquantifiable, undetectable, and is spiritual in nature rather than the total opposite - midichlorians which are tangible, measurable, concrete, non-spiritual, actual enities/bodies in the blodstream.

    Did you read the previous posts? Just because we do not know how to measure the divine does not mean that it is not possible or will be. Also, just because the midi-chlorians are measureable does not make them non-spiritual; they are a connection to the divine the same as the atman, which once again makes the apples and oranges comment irrelevant. Again, Hindus do believe the atman to be a part of us, hence an actual entity in the body that can be separated (it rejoins the World Soul when one reaches Enlightenment and is released from samsara).
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