"Might makes right"

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth Dane, May 11, 2004.

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  1. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    In every society there is a hieraki built on oppression.

    Even down to the smallest community, the family

    Animal societies are also built on this principle


    Is it possible to have society without oppression in some form?

  2. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    To use the English word, hierarchy, no.
  3. Darth-Kevin-Thomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    i think its possible in someone's mind. Like a utopia.

    But factually speaking, there will always be some idiot that will think he is better than that next man. Its man's evil heart.

    DKT OUt
  4. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Is it possible to have society without oppression in some form?

    My answer is maybe.

    However we are not even close to achieving it.
    Oppresion comes from mankind's own unconfidence.
    We always feel like we have to be better than the next person...having more. In many cases man belittles the next person to help himself feel better about his position in the world. Until we recognize the truth...that all men are equal in the grand scheme of things....then we may be able to remove this social heirarchy. Highly doubtful, though.

    Not to tap into another topic on a different thread but:

    Could the exploitations of the Iraqi prisoners be an example of belittling to make one feel better about themselves?
  5. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Quite simply, No.

    It's just a utopian fantasy to believe otherwise.
  6. Darth-Kevin-Thomas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 5
    I think that the iraqi prisoners show us that we will not have a fantasy happy land.

    i don't want to stray to far away from the topic but it shows one culture putting it self above another. There is to much greed and to much arrogance for antyhing like that to happen.

    DKT OUT
  7. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Perhaps...But I think this phrase fits perfectly:

    "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

  8. GrandDesigner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2003
    star 2
    Of course it's possible. In many ways, it's how things are. But there are a lot of things that seem to distract attention from that.

    <<Its man's evil heart.>>
    << Animal societies are also built on this principle >>

    It's an animal instinct...evil is a strong word.

    << Could the exploitations of the Iraqi prisoners be an example of belittling to make one feel better about themselves?>>

    No. It's like not understanding how to impart the idea, to your dog, that messing on the carpet is not desired. In the past, people would assume 'rubbing the dogs nose in it' would somehow impart the idea. But, in the act of rubbing the dogs nose in it, it's doesn't make one feel better. But, too, when it's learned the action does not result in the right way and that there is a better way to translate the idea, you use that idea. A better way... meaning not having to seemingly belittle them to get the thought across. Thats just an analogy and in no way meaning to say those Iraqi detainees are dogs. One thing to note is that though it may seem appealing to gloat or take out frustrations on another being, it never makes one feel better about anything. If anything, you feel worse for those actions. Even when it's Iraqi's dragging a US soldiers body through the street.

    G-D
  9. GarthSchmader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2003
    star 4
    I disagree with most of the above posts, and I think the question if worth asking time and time again until people figure this out as a part of common sense:

    Any perceived heirarchy is a falsity of the highest measure, simply, and ultimately, by virtue of the fact that were all dirt in the end. Our bodies and souls are borrowed and death will always win. Prove me wrong...I challenge you.

    Also, I think to brush this question off as a stab at a "utopia" is a big cop out. A state of relationships that does not include hierarchy is anarchy, and any hierarchies we perceive are merely projections of our own futile (and infantile) need to impose order on our the universe which will eat us up in the end.

    Oh, and by the way, Darth Dane, I really LIKE :D the spelling hierarki !!

  10. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    It's not the spelling, it's the same concept in a different language. That's like proclaiming an affinity for the spelling of padre.

    As for your other claims, your nihlistic view may make sense in a long view but absolute foolishness for anything that doesn't count time by the birth and death of stars.

    If you don't think anarchy has a hierarchy I suggets you go try and live in one. Furthermore, even if it did avoid a hierarchy in the sense of government it would do absolutely nothing to avoid the might=right baselogic Dane is coming from.
  11. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    Heh, I guess a little danish had crept into that word :D

    Hierarchy.... ;)

    If you don't think anarchy has a hierarchy I suggets you go try and live in one. Furthermore, even if it did avoid a hierarchy in the sense of government it would do absolutely nothing to avoid the might=right baselogic Dane is coming from.


    Exatcly, 'might makes right' seems like an inbuilt feature of life, so to say :p

  12. GarthSchmader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2003
    star 4
    As for your other claims, your nihlistic view may make sense in a long view but absolute foolishness for anything that doesn't count time by the birth and death of stars.

    It doesn't even have to that far. By driving my assertion to the extreme, you attempt to invalidate my argument, and your attempt fails, thus: what about the birth and death of you and I? Our power as individuals amounts to very little, as we are so very dependent upon support not procured by ourselves for such large portions of our lives. What I am getting at is that our perceived "might" is really a result of other factors, and amounts to quite little, though we may experience the illusion of power for time to time.

    Oh, yeah, I'm not a nihilist, by the way...go look in the nihilism thread, you'll find I agree and disagree with basic nihilism about equally. :D


    If you don't think anarchy has a hierarchy I suggets you go try and live in one.

    Sure, if I go and live in one (I THINK you are talking about anarchy, but your poor sentence construction left me wondering WHICH unattainable circumstance you are advocating that I go attain, anarchy or hierarchy) , and I am not careful and mindful, then I will end up projecting my ideas about power and pecking order upon the situation. It's perfectly natural, and it's perfectly false.


    Furthermore, even if it did avoid a hierarchy in the sense of government it would do absolutely nothing to avoid the might=right baselogic Dane is coming from.

    Look, all power is temporary, and that MEANS that we needn't struggle or trifle with it. Instead we should spend our time creating and loving (this is where I depart from nihilism). When we acknowledge any form of artificial governance, we automatically set ourselves up for a fall, because the end is always closer than we'd like to think. Our arrogance about the illusion of permanence of human artifice will %100 of the time lead to disappointment. Why waste our energy trying to be "right" when we have no real measuring stick that is long enough to measure it? "Right" is merely an approximation in human terms. If might is right for you, than so be it, but it will never be right for me, thanks.
  13. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Wow, you've completely convinced me by pointing out that since everything we build will eventually crumble we should all live in peace, or something.


    Seriously though do you have any thoughts on human reality rather then pretending some cosmic zero sum game means everyone should be happy just existing in the moment?
  14. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    Look, all power is temporary, and that MEANS that we needn't struggle or trifle with it.

    No we needn't, but apparently most do!


    Instead we should spend our time creating and loving (this is where I depart from nihilism).

    Until there are more with that attitude, it won't happen, when it happens the majority decides what should be accpeted and not, and so they are the mightiest. slightly muffled sentence....



    When we acknowledge any form of artificial governance, we automatically set ourselves up for a fall,

    So is a child's acceptence of the fathers authority, the setup for the fall of the child?

    Does it mean that we shouldn't raise our children in our image, because we set them up to accept an artificial authority through society?



    Why waste our energy trying to be "right" when we have no real measuring stick that is long enough to measure it?

    While this is sweet, it has no bearing on the OP. I'm not so interested in what can come, I am interested in what is now

    "Right" is merely an approximation in human terms. If might is right for you, than so be it, but it will never be right for me, thanks.

    Raising a child, well inevitably lead to the fact, that the father/mother will punish the child, because it needs to learn some lesson or other. This punishment is the invoking of 'might makes right'

    Should the child question you always, or just shut up, listen and accept that you rule?

    And then some day, the child learns, that it has some might of it's own...and uses it, because thats how the father/mother did things to make things happen


    ....just rambling a bit

  15. anakin_skywalker_sct Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2001
    star 5
    That's a good point about children. We try so hard to teach them that violence doesn't solve anything... and if you hit your sister again I'll spank your backside back to the stoneage!

    I believe that, technically speaking, might does make right. The winners write the history books. Those that have power cannot be reprimanded by those without, but those without power can find themselves subject to injustice quite easily. It's not fair, but it is reality. Can we change it?

    I'd like to think so. People have come so close, sticking their neck on the line to stick it to the man, so to speak. But sadly the powerful always break them in the end, so far. The Coal Miners' Strike and Petrol Strike in fairly recent British History come to mind.
  16. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    So could we say that through democrazy, we, however veiled it is, 'worship' democrazy, because it gives the most, imaginable?, might of the governing systems we know?

  17. Darth Dane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2000
    star 4

    God: ...but don't eat of this tree

    Adam/Eve: Why?

    God: Because I say so

    Adam/Eve: but why?

    God: Because I say so and that's the end of it

    sometime later....

    God: I told you not to eat it

    Adam: she did it!

    Eve: No I didn't, you liar

    God shakes God's head; As punishment or reward as you will have it, you will have children of your own.... enjoy *snigger*




    Do we as parents/society say that the tree of knowledge of, say sex and drugs, is a sin to eat of?

    And that we justify it by saying that it is so because it just is so?

    Some laws, are there, because they have been there forever...does that make them inherently good?

  18. POLARIUS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 3
    First off the "utopian" society that was mentioned earlier in the thread cannot happen due to greed and mans secret hatred towards each for being different. I have not yet formed an opinion on the other matters at hand at this time.
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