Millions of kids are killing scores of cops a day - how far should censorship go?

So, what's the deal here? Are we not aloud to debate with Pigfeet?? This is a debating forum, you know. Pigfeet, if you don't enjoy debating, why are you here? Don't think that i don't appreciate your being here, though. Your views have made this thread alot more interesting.

 

Ok, so violent games aren't your thing, Pigfeet. Besides Halo and Resident Evil and stuff like that. But these are your tastes, they don't apply to everybody. One of the great things about video games is the fantasy and escapism of it. I don't want to go to war! I don't want to become a criminal! But does that stop me from enjoying books or movies about war or criminals? Certainly not, and why should it? The same applies to video games. It's a completely fictional setting, and total escapism. Do you watch The Sopranoes? GTA is kinda like The Sopranoes. You know that they're bad guys, but you still like them. That doesn't make you a bad person.

Pigfeet, do you enjoy war movies? How is playing a video game based on the theme of war that different from playing a video game based on the theme of war? What i do with my own time is my buisness and no one elses. If i'll excersie thats up to me. If i wanna play GTA thats up to me.

"A great game and I used to play that as a kid for hours on end. There is nothing violent about that game and trying to compare it to a game like GTA which is all about killing people is not very smart."

Sonic is a favourite of mines too. Let me correct you about GTA. Contrary to popular believe, the name of the game isn't to kill as many people as possible. The name of the game is to make money and have fun. However the player wants to do that is up to him. In fact, if you stick strictly to the missions, very few innocent people will die. Hell, if you want to, you can cruise around the city all day on a moterbike.

"What I do care about is someone 21 and younger playing it" ... i'm 18. Shocking!

"If you want to go off and seek adventure and kill people then join the special forces and experience the real deal."

I don't want to do that. I could never kill another person in real life.

"1. Any game depicting extreme violence to human beings from a criminal or bad guy point of view."

Above everything, GTA depicts realism in it's characters in that even the worst of the bad guys have their good points. One of my favourite games is Metal Gear Solid. The game is from a good guy point of view, but the bad guys have noble reasons for doing the things they do. Pigfeet, if you showed convincing evidence to show that violent video games are harmful, then maybe you would have more credibility. So far everything is based off your own tastes and morals. I love my video games, and i genuinly see the best of them as art. I'll be damned if i'll let someone who doesn't understand them take them away from me.

 

The reason for my 2nd post being so short was because if you had read my post you would know I had written a larger piece but some how it was deleted. I wasn't going back to re-write it again, so I left it with a more simple post. Plus I am tired of simply voicing my opinion and then having to defend why all the time by myself. Everyone on this Senate no matter what the issue is always have a problem with me. It gets a bit tiresome sometimes. If nothing more something should ring clear to all of you. I don't follow trends or crowds or like I like to call it the herd on many things. Just because 160 million others do it, sure as hell doens't make it right. However when I say something which upsets the herd then I'm on the defensive the rest of the way. I'm tired of doing it.


As for evidence.

Well I guess you should go hang out at a local public school for a day and eves drop on a conversation by a couple of kids.

This is an example of my sisters 5th grade class just last week. I was there helping out for a field trip.

Guys I got it. I was blowing the hell out of all these people and shooting up the cars and then the cops show up and got into a big shootout with them, but they eventually killed me when I was cornered.

What game was that?

Grand theft auto I convinced my older brother to buy it for me the other day because it went down in price.


This was pretty much exactly what I heard.

"I don't want to do that. I could never kill another person in real life."

Then shouldn't this apply to the artificial world in video games?

Oh and you brought up movies. I've already said there is a distinct difference between watching the Sopranos and playing GTA or other games like it.

For one you are simply watching and observing the Sopranos on TV. You are not interacting and deciding what is going to happen like you can in a video game. That is the fundamental difference between video games.

 

I did read your other posts. I know what thats like, fighting against the herd. If it helps, i actually agree with you on some topics.

 

Like what? I've never heard you agree with me before.

Back on topic.

What do you have to say about what I heard just last week at school

Now is there a way to keep this game out of the hands of kids? I cannot count on the parents because there are too many easy ways around it. Any suggestions Kaine?

 

I can't say i approve of 5th grade kids playing the game. But realisticly, what's the worst that could happen? He could play it for hours on end letting it distract him from homework and other responsibilities. Like i said, i don't approve of kids that age playing the game, but i can't see it having that much of a negative effect.

"Then shouldn't this apply to the artificial world in video games?"

The characters in video games aren't real. They're not physical or intelligent or anything. They're just electronic information. Still, i do feel guilty sometimes. Like in Metal Gear Solid, where your actually encouraged to go through the game killing as little people as possible.

I see what you mean with the difference you pointed out between Television and video games. In a video game, the player actually takes part and gets into a role. But just like the Sopranos, GTA is pure fiction. Just like the Sopranos, GTA has an interesting storyline and interesting characters. The more you progress in the game, the more storyline you unravel. I can see how some people might take the killing and stuff seriously, but most people that play the game hardly give it a second thought. The killing is only a small part of GTA, and mature people see that.

EDIT: Just read the above post. I agree with you in the gun topic for example.

As for suggestions on how to stop kids getting their hands on games they shouldn't be playing... well, i honestly can't think of anything that would be all taht effective. But, kids can also get their hands on movies, pornography, adult music, magazines, etc, just as easily. They just get an older sibling or an older friend to buy it for them. I don't think though that kids would be affected too negatively that we would need to actually ban all violent video games.

 

From what I know is that your a group or gang and your trying to eliminate your rival gangs.

Now isn't this what happens in everyday life in inner cities where gangs rule by fear.

Have you watched the news lately?

Well if you haven't. In California there have been a lot of gang shootings going on and as a result some innocent people have been killed as a result. There is a direct link to the game, because you can inflict the same type of carnage.

 

Gang rivalry in inner cities has existed for YEARS before the first GTA game. American cities have almost always been hot spots for gun violence. And even if you forget about all that, why hasn't there been such an amount of gun violence or gang rivalry in other countries where GTA is available?

If you play GTA: Vice City's missions, the aim is to rise through the ranks of the criminal underworld. This does often involve gang rivalry.

 

Okay so that is what everyone should aspire to then. Getting to the top of the criminal underworld.

So what then. Once you do this what happens you beat the game?

How about all the illegal action you did to get there. How many innocent people had to die in order for you to accomplish that goal in the game?

Is this really what you want to involve yourself with?

Look there are laws in this country and all this game exploits is how the evil and terrible people who don't abide by those laws make their own laws and as a result in the criminal world. There is no trial, Jury or anything. Straight to execution.

You see there has been a shift in the gaming world as far as I can see. It was once good guys fighting bad guys. Cops and Robbers basically.

Now it's Bad guys fighting bad guys or Bad gus fighting good guys. That is wrong, and that is why these games have no place on the market.

That is the fundamental difference between GTA, Hitman vs a game like James Bond, or even Max Payne in which you are a policeman who is taking the law into his own hands and that is wrong, but he is still out to get the bad guys. Not the other way around when your the bad guy.

 

Sorry, DARTHPIGFEET, are you advocating banning Hitman and Hitman 2?

E_S

 

"So what then. Once you do this what happens you beat the game?"

I have yet to beat the game, but i think i am close. Once you beat the game you are free to do whatever you want in Vice City. Drive an ice cream van, deliver pizzas, cruise around the city in a huge amount of vehicles including boats planes and helicopters, there are so many things to do.

"How about all the illegal action you did to get there. How many innocent people had to die in order for you to accomplish that goal in the game?"

I didn't purposely kill that many innocent people. I mostly killed rival gang members.

"Is this really what you want to involve yourself with?"

It's fictional. I have no problem with it, but i'm beginning to understand why you and other people would. One thing about the police in every GTA game, though. If you peev them off bad enough, they almost always catch you!! It makes me afraid to mess with police men in real life.

"You see there has been a shift in the gaming world as far as I can see. It was once good guys fighting bad guys. Cops and Robbers basically.

Now it's Bad guys fighting bad guys or Bad gus fighting good guys. That is wrong, and that is why these games have no place on the market."

I kind of agree with you here. There hasn't been any games like Sonic or Super Mario in a long time. Games like that don't work in a 3D format, and the people that played those games have matured into adults. I guess the makers feel there isn't much of a market anymore. If they still made good kids games i would buy them.

"That is the fundamental difference between GTA, Hitman vs a game like James Bond, or even Max Payne in which you are a policeman who is taking the law into his own hands and that is wrong, but he is still out to get the bad guys. Not the other way around when your the bad guy."

I understand that. I love action games and adventure games, but it just gets tireing and boring always playing the goody too shoes all the time. I'm an avid comic book reader, i love characters with edge and grey areas. Max Payne has one of the best storylines i've seen in a video game. Max is a very tortured character, i really wouldn't like to be him. No matter how many criminals he kills, he can't fill the loss in his heart for his lost loved ones. It's a tragic story. Video games are stories in which you act out a role, but that role isn't always desireable.

 

I like anti-heros as well, but hitmen and gang members.

I remember the classic nintendo game which I played everyday. It was one of the very few sort of 1st person shoot em up games which was the Comic Book character The Punisher. It was like Operation Wolf if your memory of games goes back that far. It was like that. You shot 100000's of bad guys.

I know it's fictional stuff going on in the game but this stuff happens in real life as well.

Oh and Contra for Nintendo is the greatest game ever made.

 

Yeah. Groovy. You should see how extreme Punisher can get in the comic books. He's the definition of anti-hero.

 

>There is a direct link to the game, because you can inflict the same type of carnage.

This way of thinking intrigues me. I suppose Hitler played video games too.

 

"How many innocent people had to die in order for you to accomplish that goal in the game?"

None. There are no people in video games. There are little groups of pixels shaped like people, but no real people. If you can't tell the difference, maybe you shouldn't be playing video games.

 

PIGFEET, ever played Baldurs Gate or the like? Now these aren't "realistic" PC games but they do give you the choice, the choice between good or evil, I find those games much more interesting then the standard "go out and kill all evil because they're EVVILLL", in the real world there aren't any "evil" people for the sake of being evil. What do you think this game will do? Warp fragile 13 year old minds into going on a carnage against the police? ::

Blaming computer games for violence is the same thing as blaming music for violence 10 years ago. BS.

 

DARTHPIGFEET:
Thanks for clarifying yourself.

The reason for my 2nd post being so short was because if you had read my post you would know I had written a larger piece but some how it was deleted. I wasn't going back to re-write it again, so I left it with a more simple post. Plus I am tired of simply voicing my opinion and then having to defend why all the time by myself. Everyone on this Senate no matter what the issue is always have a problem with me. It gets a bit tiresome sometimes. If nothing more something should ring clear to all of you. I don't follow trends or crowds or like I like to call it the herd on many things. Just because 160 million others do it, sure as hell doens't make it right. However when I say something which upsets the herd then I'm on the defensive the rest of the way. I'm tired of doing it.

I understand how you feel, and where you're coming from in terms of your opinions. I don't agree with most of them, but "I will defend to the death your right to say it". IMO it's fine to have whatever opinion you want, as long as you don't try to impose those opinions on others.

 

"How many innocent people had to die in order for you to accomplish that goal in the game?"

Pigfeet, it's all just a bunch of ones and zeroes. No matter how many pixels on the screen are colored blood red, no one actually gets hurt.

 

That's what i should have said. Instead, i said "i didn't kill that many!", LOL!!

Sometimes i go on the occasional killing spree just for the fun of it. But for the most part, the only innocent people i kill in GTA i accidently knocked over. But why do i have to make excuses??

 

>Above everything, GTA depicts realism in it's characters in that even the worst of the bad guys >have their good points. One of my favourite games is Metal Gear Solid. The game is from a >good guy point of view, but the bad guys have noble reasons for doing the things they do.

Ian Irvine said that there is no good and evil, only survival and extinction.

 

I don't know. I play a game called Unreal Tournament in which you can pop the heads of other opponents with sniper rifles and sweet weapons, but I don't think it has gone too far. Parents should be aware of what games their kids want and should be able to decide whether they should be playing them or not. I do agree that kids under a certain age should not be allowed to play certain game that have gratuitous sexual content or mature language, but it shouldn't be a law.

 

Whenever I am angry, I let off steam with violent games. It gets rid of murderous rage and urges as opposed to the contrary. Thus games like GTA3 (I don't own it, but that sort of thing) are beneficial, not bad. And they're all binary coding, not real people. Lots of 0s and 1s will die so I can let off steam. Good deal, no?

 

The censors who are upset that millions of children are capping cops every day on Grand Theft Auto shoud remember that these same kids are killing zombies, demons, terrorists, and monsters.

They are helping keep America safe. When's the last time you saw a zombie roaming freely...really!