Clone Wars Missed or wasted opportunities in the show?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. Seerow SWTV★Mod

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    Yep, one of another reasons for the case for TCW needing more OC Jedi of all kinds. Really TCW would have benefited more from having someone under Grievous to act as the standard villain who would get on the ground with the good guys while Grievous stayed behind and acted the strategist. Then on occasion Grievous could come down and **** would get real instead of being the Saturday morning cartoon.
  2. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Adding true depth to those on 'the other side'. That'd have been really nice. Totally unsuprised it didn't happen way skewed to the Jedi as usual.
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  3. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I don't disagree with you, but TCW still deserves credit for doing a much better job of showing that than the PT.
  4. Paparazzo Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 31, 2011
    star 2
    I agree, though it was sad how many of the 'other side' characters that were 'good' were eventually turned to the Republic. And conversely with 'bad guys' on the Republic side.
  5. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I disagree, it didn't do depth well at all for anyone to me. I'm glad so many think TCW gave them some of what they wanted for development and depth, though.
  6. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    It doesn't have to be done well to be better than the PT was the point. Personally I think it's done well when they bother to do it, but they almost never bother to do it, so overall the series is not good at it.
  7. thank Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2013
    star 1
    I am totally biased but LUMINARA !!! I never understood why she wasn't used more (and not just because she's my fave)
    The concern, informality, banter and dialogue in general between Luminara and Anakin in "Weapons factory" and Luminara, Anakin and Obi-Wan in "Legacy of Terror" suggests they have a close friendship, with Luminara perhaps being a motherly or sisterly figure to Anakin rather than just another Jedi. I would have liked to see where this relationship came from in TWC.

    Anyway, one specific missed opportunity:
    At the end of "Weapons Factory" Luminara says to Anakin "When the time comes I am prepared to let my student go" They should have done something with this since it is quite prophetic considering both Luminara and Anakin had to "let (their) student(s) go" in "The Wrong Jedi" with the latter being due to the former. I would have liked to see how it impacted Luminara and Anakin's relationship with Luminara.
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread but the search function isn't working and I'm too lazy to go through the whole thing, but...yeah. "Where the hell was Luminara in the fugitive arc?" was a HUUUGE missed opportunity.
  9. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I feel like Anakin and/or the clones could have had a "what is the meaning of life?" kind of crisis.

    Like in the film Prometheus, there is a scene where David (a robot) is speaking in one of the members of the expedition to make contact with the "Engineers." I don't remember the conversation verbatim, but David is pretty much told that he was made because "we [humans] could." David then turns around and asks for the guy to imagine what it would be like to stand before his creator and be told the same thing. That they would go to find out what the meaning of their existence was, why they were created, etc. And be met with a very unsympathetic "because we could."

    I actually thought that it was a missed opportunity of ROTS to not make a bigger deal out of the tale of Darth Plagueis, not because he could save others from dying, but because he could create life by manipulating midichlorians, which sounded conspicuously similar to the situation surrounding Anakin's birth. Add to that the situation in the Mortis arc, when it was established that Anakin does not believe himself to be special, and believes the Chosen One to be a myth.

    I as an atheist have dealt with people in real life that can't fathom it when they ask me what my view on the meaning of life is, and I say that there is none. To some, that is unacceptable and it seems like they would almost break down to consider it as a possibility. I felt like Anakin could have experienced this kind of crisis in ROTS. And while it was too late to really change ROTS, I think they could have retroactively laid the groundwork for this kind of thought process in Anakin in TCW. Continue to follow the notion that he does not believe in the prophecy of the Chosen One, or at least not believe that he is the Chosen One. And perhaps even give him a preoccupation with his "father." Rather than walking around believing himself to have a miraculous birth, give him doubts, that perhaps his mother was lying, or have him study to see if such powers of creation are possible via the Force.

    That would retroactively make the story of Plagueis a 1-2 punch for Palpatine. "The Sith know how to save your wife, and they know how to create people by manipulating midichlorians BTW."

    I can't remember what franchise/characters it had occurred in, I want to say Star Trek or BSG, but I could be mistaken, where one character is pretty much criticizing another for being created. While the machine defends his existence as knowing full well what his purpose is, which gives him a clarity that most people never have as they struggle to find meaning in their lives. So even if they went that route, where Anakin actually finds comfort in the notion of being created. That it gives his life purpose, even if it's for dark deeds.

    And/or apply something similar to the clones. Use such an explanation to show why they so willingly embrace their role as soldiers. That they actually find peace in knowing exactly what their purpose in life is, and their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the cause.

    Zod in The Man of Steel, would kind of fit this bill:

    Star Trek DS9 explored the idea of cloned soldiers in the episode "The Abandoned" (I think that's the title). The Federation finds a Jem'Hadar child, which like the clones is genetically altered to be loyal, experiences accelerated growth (goes from baby to teenager in days), and is further controlled by making them addicted to a drug that only their masters can supply, and only wants to fight. The Jem'Hadar serve the Dominion, which is hostile to the Federation. The Federation wants to apprehend the Jem'Hadar for study. While the main characters are the ones that face the moral dilemma of what to do. Hand the boy over to the Federation and deprive him of his freedom? Or honor the boys choice to rejoin his people (who are hostile to the Federation). Star Wars need not be THIS complex on issues of morality, nor venture into such a gray area on screen. But in Star Trek at least there was a strong effort by some characters to urge the boy to consider alternative courses in life. That he had the CHOICE to be something other than what he was created to be, but in the end the Jem'Hadar wanted to do nothing but fight and rejoin his people, and the protagonists decided to honor the boys wish.

    The Jedi giving clones names/using their names and allowing the clones to paint their armor, get tattoos, and get unique hair cuts is hardly giving them a choice or treating them as individuals. Treating them as individuals would be to try to get to know them as people, what they like to do, what they want to do with their lives, and like the cast of DS9, encouraging them that they need not be what they were created to be (i.e. encouraging them that they do not have to be soldiers, if they choose not to be). But instead we get nothing of the sort, which I feel was another missed opportunity.

    The clones could have been represented like a cross between Zod and the Jem'Hadar. Wanting to fight, finding comfort in knowing what their purpose in life is, and actually growing increasingly agitated when something gets in the way of them fulfilling their duties. Perhaps even getting irritated with the Jedi for showing them that there are other paths in life other than fighting, because they would rather just fight and not have their time wasted.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Apr 21, 2014
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  10. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    More long-term storytelling. I really liked most of the arcs that the show did, but the show always felt like there was an absence of longer-term storytelling, with over-arching threats whose stories were told over an entire season or multi-season stories. There was Dooku, Grievous, and the Sith to be sure, but I never really got the sense that there was a narrative thread that ran through their stories other than "they're going to win in Episode III."
  11. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Apr 29, 2011
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    @TaradosGon admittedly I didn't read your entire WOT, but as someone with a strong affinity towards existentialism myself I was actually pleasantly surprised with the amount of time TCW spent on it - and I was surprised just as much because it's Star Wars as because it was a cartoon on a kids' channel. Star Wars films don't really address any cerebral issues at all, and certainly never even came close to touching existentialism.

    The first time TCW goes there is as early as S2 in Brain Invaders when Ahsoka questions why the war is happening at all and also how the Jedi can take part in it and still keep up with their own ideals, and the conversation basically ends with Barriss saying she doesn't know. S2 also has The Deserter which touches on existentialism with Cut and Rex's conversations on the purpose of their lives and what life choices that purpose legitimizes. S3 does it less explicitly but still touches on the theme with Ventress' entire life getting flipped upside down and Anakin's "destiny" as "The Chosen One" dominating the Mortis arc. S4 is then a little more explicit about again, as the Umbara arc basically goes back to a lot of the same existential questions brought up in The Deserter and spends a little more time on them. S5 has the most explicit existentialism of the whole series with the episode A Sunny Day in the Void literally asking some of the same questions they would ask you in a philosophy class. In S6, the Order 66 arc is about as explicitly existential as The Deserter/Umbara and the Yoda arc is about as existential as the S3 stuff. Which, by the way, I do not think are weak examples, they're just different kinds of examples. Albert Camus' The Plague is a/the founding document of absurdist philosophy (which I personally tend to subscribe to), and it's not an explicitly philosophical text, it's a story about characters and the experiences they go through are supposed to make a statement about life that represents the philosophical viewpoint. Not that TCW is Camus obviously, but I think the same idea applies.
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  12. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3
    I think some of the more sophisticated, more internal parts of the Clone Wars have a really strange feeling to them. I like the show, but some parts of it suffered from... grownups, working hard to express ideas that work on a grownup level, but everything has to fit through this bottleneck of kid-appropriateness. There's a really weird vibe in the bonus-season arc that deals mostly with high finance and Anakin and Padme's relationship troubles -- not really great directions to go for Disney XD's demographic -- and then oh look there's Embo and let's have an awesome action sequence with SNOWBOARDING!!! AWESUM!!!1 You have this show about banking intrigue, and you know the hero is going to kill everyone pretty soon now, and it's dark, but it suffers from being forced through the kid filter. It comes out looking ham-handed sometimes.

    And don't get me wrong, I love action, and I have little nieces and a nephew that are just the right ages to watch the Clone Wars, and I have no problem with Star Wars sometimes being silly. I want kids to have good entry points into the franchise. I'm not complaining because the show wasn't 110% grim darkness. But it feels like when they get into some of those deeper topics, it's too much like adults trying to mention sex in a way the kids in the room won't pick up on. I don't think they were in a very good position to address things like what it means to be a combat-bred clone.
  13. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    Politics in general was one of those topics that suffered from being a more adult topic that had to fit into a box for a younger demo. Most of the political episodes of the show were pretty bad. They were overly simplistic, and often times ended with politicians' beliefs being swayed by an impassioned speech from Padmé or Organa. That's not the way politics works. Deeply entrenched interests don't change their minds because of great oratory.

    It's funny that you mention the Clovis arc because I actually thought that was the most well-done political story in the show.
  14. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I would have loved references to Cosinga Palpatine amd Hego Damask. Those two contribute a lot to the Clone Wars era.
    Last edited by purplerain, Apr 23, 2014
  15. ElanMars Force Ghost

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    Dec 14, 2000
    star 1
    -I would have liked to have seen Anakin have some sort of Tatooine arc involving Owen-would explain why Owen thought Anakin should stay instead of fight, as Obi Wan told Luke in ANH.

    -Would also have liked to see how Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars.

    -Would have liked to have seen more of Quinlan Vos, Luminara, Kit Fisto and other jedi (like Oppo Rancisis, maybe other EU jedi like Tsui Choi, . Less episodes with Amidala, the episode with the dinner party planning, and the Baron Papageorgenoida were awful. So many other stories they could have done instead.

    -Grievous, Dooku, Ventress...never felt like major threats. I think Grievious had the most potential wasted, figured since he was easily taken care of in Revenge of the SIth, that maybe they would pad him more, like how Anakin was much better written in Clone Wars and more sympathetic, than the prequels.

    -Where was Bib Fortuna? Shown in Episode 1 and then...who knows.

    -They made a big deal about Boba Fett and the bounty hunters in season 2, but after that they just showed up here and there. Would have liked to have seen more of Aurra Sing, and others.
  16. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

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    Nov 28, 2000
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    I definitely agree with your first point. I'd have LOVED a scene from the TCW movie with Anakin visiting the Lars homestead and his Mother's grave (telling Ahsoka to wait in the ship or something). Owen to try to reach out to him, offering Anakin a home and family where he doesn't have to be involved in a war anymore. But he rejects their offer all the same. He thinks it's his duty to end the war on his own. To stop people from dying.
  17. QuangoFett Force Ghost

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    Jun 11, 2011
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    In retrospect, I think one of the biggest missed opportunities of TCW was Pursuit of Peace (3x11). I no longer dislike this episode as much as I did two years ago, but oh man, the missteps were legion:

    I won't start on the problems of Padme's and Bail's characterisations with respect to AOTC and ROTS. My focus will be on the politics.

    Dooku, in his capacity as leader of the civilian CIS Parliament, contacts the Republic Senate directly to formally withdraw the CIS's peace proposal. He tells the Republic that Mina Bonteri was killed in a Republic attack on CIS territory. This was perfectly fine; more than fine, even. It followed through with the story of the previous episode (Heroes on Both Sides) and the plot point of there genuinely being good people on the Separatist side of the conflict who believe in their cause. Having Mina Bonteri be killed by the Republic simply drives this home, and it also does the same thing as Echo's death later in the season and 99's death earlier on: it highlights the indiscriminate nature of much wartime violence.

    However, the episode then throws in the revelation that Mina Bonteri was actually killed by agents of Dooku. What narrative purpose does this serve? To make Dooku twirl his moustache a bit more? To make the Republic seem less dangerous to galactic peace and the CIS more punchable? If the point was to make the CIS seem more diabolical, why then do the "heroes" of the episode effectively try to defund the GAR and Republic Navy that are fighting to conquer and defend against the CIS? What's the point of the rest of the episode's plot in that case?

    Then there's the glaring missed opportunity of the debate over clone production.

    It was a good idea to have an episode focusing on the politics of military procurement, with the Kaminoan senator understandably agitating to increase the demand for her people's products. Perhaps Halle Burtoni could have been made to seem a little less diabolical - her real life counterpart, U.S. Senator Henry Jackson of Washington state and firm ally of Boeing's military aircraft contracting, was essentially a militaristic neoconservative but much less two-dimensional than that description - but what have you.

    The ultimate problem was with how banal and implausible the use of Teckla Minau's dirty children to argue against clone production was. TCW often ascended above mere kids' show fare, but in that instance it did not. Why do the other senators change their positions just because Padme makes one speech, especially if she somehow lacks credibility all of a sudden? S6's Order 66 arc (specifically the dispute between Shaak Ti and Nala Se) made me realise just what Pursuit of Peace could have focused on instead. Rather than bark up this tree, the writers could have taken a shot at the open goal that was the cloning ethics debate.

    Really, from an IU perspective, it would make more sense for Padme, Bail and Mon Mothma to abandon their direct opposition to the war's continuation after the acrimonious fallout over the Republic and CIS attacks against each other. The Republic is no longer in the mood to discuss peace and the CIS has lost interest. A more sophisticated stance would be to curtail the excesses of mass clone production. In AOTC, Bail is insistent to Ask Aak that "the Senate will not approve the use of clones before the Separatists attack", strongly implying that the ethics of cloning are questionable and that the ethical issues are only disregarded out of fear of Separatist invasion. They have every reason to confront this matter directly by arguing in favour of the extension of the Republic's anti-slavery laws and other sentient rights legislation (eg. those referenced in Trespass) to the clone troopers. Either that or they could introduce legislation to fund the development of infrastructure for the mass recruitment of non-clone military personnel. Or they could do both. It would ultimately serve the purpose of raising the stakes of the war for the Republic, as its own sons and daughters would then be serving alongside the Jedi and clones as comrades.

    A proper debate could be aired for once over this matter. We would then see differing yet ultimately reasonable perspectives. The likes of Ask Aak from AOTC, who are deathly afraid of the CIS gaining the upper hand, would regard the extension of Republic citizenship to the clone troopers as too costly and cumbersome at a time when an agile state needs the flexibility to deploy disposable sentient soldiers, even in direct contradiction to the Republic's founding principles. Reflecting real-life shifting of debate frames in politics, the anti-militarists would then be arguing in favour of the militarists pre-war proposals for the development of non-clone military forces. They would be using the Republic's highly esteemed sentient rights legislation to aid their cause, arguing that the rights of the clone troopers as sentient beings are non-negotiable. Palpatine, of course, wants the clones to surround the Jedi in time for Order 66, so he keeps the two factions' power balanced so that they eventually reach a compromise that is to his liking.

    One such compromise could be as follows:

    The clones are granted full Republic citizenship and benefit from sentient rights protections, but this merely shifts the Kaminoan cloning facilities into a specially defined role as their legal guardians until they get conscripted into the GAR. Their training processes are unchanged and even draconian discipline (see the Umbara arc) could be maintained, with the only material difference being the increased benefits and rights that the clones enjoy while serving in the GAR. The GAR remains almost entirely clone, but the Republic Navy begins the training of large numbers of non-clone personnel. These become the crew on the Venator-class ship's bridge at the end of ROTS as well as the Republic precursors to the Imperial Navy Troopers. Later TCW episodes depicting scenes on board Republic Navy vessels would feature a mix of clones and non-clones.

    That's just one train of thought, borne out of what I see as a big missed opportunity in TCW. Pursuit of Peace was a perfect opportunity to tackle both the debate over cloning ethics and the evolution of the Republic military from AOTC to ROTS, and I think this was wasted in favour of a rather more banal story.
  18. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I really thought they should have established more clearly delineated interest groups within the senate. Not just everyone going along with Palpatine until Padme gives a speech, rinse and repeat.

    I would have liked to see more anti-Palpatine politicians that are not so passive as those shown in the cut Delegation of 2000 scenes in ROTS. People that are trying to get Palpatine out of office ASAP, whether it be because they are political idealists that cherish the pre-war democratic process, or even people out to merely usurp his position, or even a combination of these motives mixed in an anti-Palpatine coalition. With some individuals that just go against him regardless of what he proposes, merely because they don't want to support him.

    I definitely think the slavery issue in regards to the clones should have been brought up.

    I think alternatives to the clone army should have been explored, and that the transition from clones to recruits should have been introduced in TCW, not left for Pablo to explain away at a convention.

    I would have liked to have seen more maneuvering from Palpatine to stay ahead of things. Not merely him being beloved and everyone just nodding along with whatever he says until Padme gives another speech.

    For instance, if Bail, Padme and the Jedi do successfully convince the Senate to alleviate the burden of expenses that the clones are costing the Republic by convincing them to begin recruitment, this agitates Palpatine since he needs the clones to execute Order 66, so then when some of the first recruits take to the field under the command of a Jedi, Palpatine manipulates things and has Republic intelligence feed incorrect information to the Jedi, claiming that there is a ship carrying a high profile target (like Grievous, Asajj or Dooku), which really turns out to be a civilian cargo fleet that the Jedi forces decimate, killing a bunch of civilians and really creating a huge embarrassment for the Jedi and recruits, that helps turn public opinion against the Jedi, and allows people like Tarkin to step into the higher ranks of the military.

    I definitely think we should have gotten a return to Tatooine and an interaction between Obi-Wan and Owen, and perhaps they could have established what happened to Cliegg, or at least foreshadowed his death (such as mentioning that he's in failing health ever since Shmi died).

    Just the power and influence that Jabba conveys in ROTJ seems much, much greater than that he ever conveyed in TCW or TPM. In TCW he's shown to be merely a member of a larger Hutt Council, and he's shown to parlay with the Republic for passage through his space. In ROTJ he just seems much more extravagant, hedonistic, laughing off the threat of a Jedi, continuing to run illicit business - and yet even though there is an Imperial presence on Tatooine, the Empire does not touch him.

    I would have liked to have seen Jabba, either through direct manipulation, such as altering records of Hutt activities to clear his own name, but submitting the record to the Republic to frame the rest of the Hutt Councilors, or merely taking advantage of Hutt Councilor deaths (such as the one killed by Maul), to absorb the assets of the other Hutt Leaders and really elevate his own position.

    I would have liked to have seen Dooku continue to try to usurp Palpatine beyond the Nightsisters arc. Dooku has the largest army at his disposal. I am surprised that he doesn't try to pull a Darth Malak and really use that advantage to sincerely take his master out. I almost would have liked Dooku to have confronted Savage on Mandalore (in my ideal head canon, Savage would have been trained by Maul, surpassed him, and then kill him in Sith fashion), Dooku then pretty much tries to take Savage as his apprentice again, sensing how his strength has continued to grow. But then Palpatine strolls in and pretty much catches Dooku red handed, plotting to overthrow Palpatine, and revealing to Palpatine that Dooku took a secret apprentice following Palpatine's order to kill Asajj. Palpatine then engages Savage and Dooku in a duel, kills Savage, Dooku begs for mercy, and Sidious allows Dooku to live because of "other uses" (which turn out to be using him as bait to continue to antagonize Anakin and drive him toward the dark side).
  19. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Just a thought:

    Perhaps there could have been an episode or two in the vein of The Hidden Enemy and Cat and Mouse - another story sequentially linked with the TCW pilot movie. Only these wouldn't be prologues to the Battle of Christophsis but epilogues to the showdown on Tatooine.

    The premise could be that Anakin and Obi-Wan (with Ahsoka being sent home for some R&R after her harrowing first mission) are hunting down a CIS agent of some sort. In the course of their journey, they encounter the Larses. We then get to see why Owen regards Obi-Wan and his "damn fool idealistic crusade" with contempt. ANH implies that there's some history between Owen, Anakin and Obi-Wan, and while it's definitely possible to extrapolate from Owen's brief interactions with the two Jedi in AOTC and ROTS to this acrimony, TCW could have made it much more explicit. It even had a spice freighter to embellish the ruse when the time came for Owen and Obi-Wan to pull the wool over Luke's eyes.

    Then there are Anakin's old mates from his days as a slave in TPM. Yeah, their paths obviously diverge from Anakin's after he leaves Tatooine. Such is life. However, one of Anakin's dreams at a young age is to free the slaves. TCW presented a decent opportunity to brutally twist the knife in this dream of his. The Republic has allied itself with the Hutts, who as we know from TPM and ROTJ, are very active in the business of slavery. No matter how much Anakin may want to intervene, his hands are tied by the realities of Republic (and later Imperial) astro-political concerns when it comes to the slaves of Hutt Space, though he's obviously free to go ballistic on CIS-aligned slavers like the Zygerrians. Yet another reason for him to stay the hell away from Tatooine after leaving it in TCW would be embellished. It could have been a good follow-up or lead-in to the Zygerrian arc.
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  20. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    The Hutts didn't strike me as really allies per se. Yeah, the Hutts granted the Republic access to their space while denying the CIS access, but otherwise they seemed to be not involved. EU maps however put Geonosis in Hutt Space before defecting to the CIS, which while non-canon, still makes sense given its proximity to Tatooine as per AOTC.

    I figure they could have done a story where the Hutts run into issues with the CIS and the Republic either refuses to get involved, or is told to not get involved by the Hutts (who do not want their deeds exposed). Meanwhile the Hutts begin recruiting their own armies from their subject peoples, like Klatooinians, Weequay, or even people like Owen. Meanwhile, Anakin disobeys the Jedi to go protect what family he has, while Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are reluctantly dragged into the conflict. Their actions perhaps expose a plot on Tatooine, where say the CIS is using Gardulla as a pawn to usurp Jabba's authority. Jabba is able to push the CIS out of his system. Owen is grateful to Anakin and says that they could use his help in rebuilding on Tatooine, Anakin is somewhat tempted, having seen what life can be like with Beru, Owen, (and Padme) away from the war, but is still haunted by what happened with his mother, and abides to what Obi-Wan tells him, that as Jedi they have a duty to serve the Republic, and that their duty comes before their own personal desires.
  21. agentkrycek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 2
    Definitely agree with you on Aurra Sing. They hyped her up big time for Seasons 2 and 3, but after Assassin she just gets dropped from the show. Its almost as if they didn't want to push both her and Ventress at the same time.
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  22. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

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    Nov 28, 2000
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    Here's one for the Mortis trilogy.

    This would take a few rewrites, but I would have liked the Father or Daughter to show Anakin a different vision of the future. A potential future where he never turned to the Darkside. Where he defeats Palpatine and is declared a hero. He could see himself made a Master, Ahsoka as a Knight training the next generation of Jedi. Anakin could even rise to the head of the council, leading to a reformation of the Order where the Jedi are free to live openly.

    This would reinforce Father's words that the future isn't set in stone while also potentially avoiding spoilers for kids only watching TCW.
  23. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

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    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I really need to build my tolerance for reading WOT's back up...
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  24. darklordoftech Force Ghost

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    "Sacrifice" shows that Sidious can create illusions and Sidious is going to duel Talzin in Son of Dathomir. I feel like GL and Filoni have an explanation in mind.
  25. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    I was thinking that it might have been a missed opportunity, particularly with regard to several of the episodes of the "Lost Missions", to delve into the lore around Darth Plagueis. Specifically, there could have been a mention of Hego Damask and Damask Holdings in the Clovis arc, even a simple namedrop that would excite EU fans and provide a link to one of the wealthiest and most powerful Muuns in the galaxy prior to TPM. But more importantly, I felt that bringing up Plagueis in the Yoda arc, specifically in the episode Sacrifice which seemed so focused on differentiating between the Jedi and Sith view on life after death, would have been great. We know that Plagueis was obsessed with immortality, and sought a way through midi-chlorian manipulation to not only prolong his life, but to attain this elusive goal, obsessively pursuing it at the expense of the Sith's grand goal of galactic takeover. Sidious could have brought his Master up to Dooku as an example to highlight the Sith obsession with living forever, for they do not believe in an afterlife, and then emphasize that the ultimate goal of any Sith should always be to achieve absolute power in the material realm, which his old Master overlooked in his quest to attain immortality. To preserve the mystery in RotS, Sidious need not refer to his Master by name, but describe him in such a way as to make it clear that the Darth Plagueis mentioned in the RotS opera scene is indeed his old Master.

    Furthermore, the Yoda arc reintroduced Qui-Gon's disembodied spirit living on long after his death, highlighting the fact that through selflessness and a dedication to the Living Force, a Jedi can attain true life after death, in contrast to the Sith goal of obtaining physical immortality. In fact, in an initial draft of the novel Darth Plagueis James Luceno noted that he wanted to pit Qui-Gon and Plagueis (unknowingly) against one another in a race to discover the key to immortality:
    As the Yoda arc revisited this idea, and the episode Destiny expanded upon the idea of the Whills (Priestesses) being the caretakers of the secret to life after death, I thought this arc would have been an ample opportunity to revisit this abandoned plotline in some form...Qui-Gon succeeded where Plagueis could not, for instance, emphasizing that only a Jedi could ever achieve the vaunted goal of immortality, but only by not actively pursuing it as an end itself, only a means to an end, with this end being to guide those still living to some future goal. With the midi-chlorians being mentioned in the episodes Voices and Destiny, and Qui-Gon being associated with that concept as well as the Living Force, it would have been a great contrast to bring up Plagueis in some manner, since he was very obsessed with the idea of the midi-chlorians being the key to achieving immortality, as well as creating life. This further emphasizes a contrast between Jinn and Plagueis; the former was a strong follower of the Living Force, selfless and respectful of all life, while the latter was the opposite; obsessed with the self and desiring to control the Force and manipulate the basic constituents that powered the Living Force so that he could one day become an all-powerful Force god. How neat would it be to have TCW go deeper into the nature of the Force itself by bringing up this contrast, while providing a further link to the present-day Jedi and Sith? Qui-Gon guiding Yoda as a spirit after death, but Plagueis no longer having any connection to the realm of the living after his own demise, leaving Sidious as the sole Sith attempting to discover the key to immortality...

    Which brings me to another point. I've always wondered about the nature of Darth Maul's "resurrection", how he was able to preserve his own life through sheer hatred and force of will, powered unnaturally by his strength in the dark side. Sam Witwer has stated that this was a foreshadowing of how Vader could keep himself alive on Mustafar after being nearly charred to a crisp, and why Sidious didn't give up on him. But what if there is more to this than that? What if this scenario, along with Mother Talzin's restoration of Maul to health, was also a means to foreshadow the return of another Sith Lord long thought dead...Plagueis himself? Plagueis felt that the key to keeping oneself alive indefinitely was true mastery over the midi-chlorians, and had he succeeded in his quest, not even Sidious himself would have been able to kill him. Well, Maul cheated death, so one wonders why can't Plagueis? As it stands now, with the Plagueis novel no longer being canon, we don't even really know the true circumstances of Plagueis' death now, other than the claim that Sidious killed him in his sleep. What if Plagueis did manage to survive by drawing upon his knowledge and his power in the dark side? Or perhaps he achieved some in-between state between life and death, and it is up to someone like Mother Talzin to restore him to life, in a similar way that she restored Maul?

    I speculated in the Son of Dathomir thread that one of the reasons why Talzin wanted to destroy the Sith, besides a petty scheme for revenge, was to open up the possibility for his consort er, cohort, Plagueis to return to the realm of the living unopposed by the Sith who succeeded him. But that her failure to destroy the Sith during the Clone Wars set Plagueis back severely, and he would have to wait until after the death of the Emperor and his next apprentice to take sole ownership of his former title of Dark Lord of the Sith once again. The point I am getting to is that I think that depending on where Son of Dathomir goes with the story, it could potentially open up the (admittedly rather unlikely) possibility of Darth Plagueis making a return somehow to the sequel trilogy. I feel that Mother Talzin's grand designs against Sidious and Tyranus might well lead to this endgame...and that would mean that her scheme would have far greater implications beyond just a self-contained story in TCW. The one canon, everything connected system at present may actually support this. Although admittedly, the comic was likely only pushed to publication as a way to resolve Maul's story. But we also know from Filoni's concept art that Darth Maul was likely originally meant to survive the events of Son of Dathomir, and we see him dressed in black Sith robes. Now this is complete and utter speculation on my part, but to build upon the Plagueis idea, what if this is Maul forming his own dark side group on behalf of his enigmatic benefactor, the Master of his ex-Master? What a wonderful irony to have Sidious' former Master recruiting Sidious' former apprentice as his new apprentice, especially since Maul apparently discovered a way to cheat death as well... OTOH, if Plagueis were indeed alive and intended to be the villain for the ST, there's no way that TCW would have revealed this, so I'm probably grasping at straws. Yet there are ways to foreshadow or hint at this while making it look like Maul is working on his own.

    All of this prior speculation will probably be rendered moot by the time the comic series concludes, but I do hope that they will do a good job of wrapping up key plot points related to the Nightsisters and the nature of Mother Talzin's relationship with the Sith, which may date to before even Sidious himself and extending to his former Master. And perhaps by the conclusion, we will have some sort of subtle setup for a future plotline in the ST, much like the possibility that Rebels is said to be setting up things for the future as well.
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