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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

MS Update Mod Squad Update: June 18

Discussion in 'Communications' started by KnightWriter, Jun 18, 2003.

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  1. AssassinDroid21

    AssassinDroid21 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2002
    You cannot punish the person who is baiting.


    Yes they can, I got a 48 hour ban the other day for it. Still think they can't punish us?
     
  2. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    I was referring to a moderator's experience.

    I know. However, not everyone is the same. That is why experience cannot help. It's pretty simple. You cannot tell what's going on in someone's head just by experience..

    History is always going to be taken into account, as it should be. If people keep getting themselves into trouble, that can show a pattern.

    People change from time time. You have no right to claim he hasn't...
     
  3. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    AssassinDroid

    I meant it is not ethical to punish a person who baits..

    Therefore a mod cannot do it...
     
  4. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Going back to last page's post from 666 re: someone saying TPM sucked...

    I would say that's not a bait...in the context you presented. But as with everything, it has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. If it was posted in some sort of JCC thread as you suggested and in that context, it's fine. Now, if that post were someone who posted that in a TPM Love/Gush thread, they're baiting.
     
  5. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    People change from time time. You have no right to claim he hasn't

    Regardless of whether people have changed or not, people still have to live with the mistakes they've made. Also, if someone keeps getting themselves in trouble or making questionable posts, one would have to wonder if they've actually changed.

    My experience is that it's often possible to discern baiting from a normal post. Moderating isn't a black and white business, and there's a lot of subjectivity and judgment involved.
     
  6. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    Sapient

    You can't tell 100%....
    He/she may be trying to initiate a debate, rather than bait others...
     
  7. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Vader...
    "I meant it is not ethical to punish a person who baits..

    Therefore a mod cannot do it...
    "

    The administration of this site has chosen a guiding set of principles to be followed by all users of this site. Baiting is in opposition to these guiding principles governing this site. Therefore, those people entrusted with the moral obligation and duty to ensure that the guiding principles are being followed are compelled by that obligation and duty to punish that behavior which is in contradiction to its principles.

    In light of this, please enlighten us as to why you don't believe it is ethical to punish someone who is engaged in antisocial behavior by people entrusted with the moral duty and obligation to provide a social environment.
     
  8. jp-30

    jp-30 Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2000
    Baiting that is punishable usually is obviously directed at a specific person or group of people.

    Debate-starters tend to be "open", where baits tend to be focussed.
     
  9. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    You know what, you're right. I hadn't thought about it that way before. I thought that with experience we all got better at doing this. But you're right. From now on, when I see something that I would have traditionally thought was a flame or a bait, no matter how harsh or obvious I think it is, I'm going to let slide. Why? Because who's to say it wasn't a joke and everyone's laughing and enjoying themselves. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what effect this "hands-off and give the benefit of the doubt" approach will have on the boards. This is going to fun and refreshing. Thanks. :)
     
  10. AssassinDroid21

    AssassinDroid21 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2002
    So Sape, do I get my 48 hours back?


    Because all my baits/flames were jokes. :)
     
  11. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    In light of this, please enlighten us as to why you don't believe it is ethical to punish someone who is engaged in antisocial behavior by people entrusted with the moral duty and obligation to provide a social environment.

    With pleasure...

    1. You cannot tell if a person is being anti-social.
    2. He/she is free to dish out their own opinions.
    3. Only insults, swearing, flaming can be considered as unethical behaviour. Those we entrust to whom want to provide a friendly atmosphere...

    Sapient...

    Take it easy, pal. So you lost. Big deal.... :D
     
  12. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Hey, it's okay for me to lose. And how can you say flaming is alright to discipline? Isn't that like your baiting theory in that we can't really judge that either? You know, the whole 'lost in the written versus the spoken word'. Using your ideas, you've really eased my job of moderating exponentially. Just what exactly do I have to moderate or ban for? I love this!!!! :)
     
  13. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    You amuse me, old friend...

    Flaming is not the same as baiting...

    You should know better than to say Life is easy...

    Responsibilty's a bummer...
     
  14. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Vader...
    "With pleasure...

    1. You cannot tell if a person is being anti-social.
    2. He/she is free to dish out their own opinions.
    3. Only insults, swearing, flaming can be considered as unethical behaviour. Those we entrust to whom want to provide a friendly atmosphere...
    "

    1. Having to "tell" anything is not at all a requirement to the administration's authority or a limitation of it. Or, put clearly, the following term of service which a poster agrees to is not contingent upon knowing any motives of anyone:
      "User acknowledges and agrees that the use of the Jedi Council Forums is a privilege, not a right, and that the administration of the Jedi Council has the right, at its sole discretion, to revoke this privilege at any time without notice should the administration deem it necessary."
    All the administration must do is deem it necessary to take action for it to have the right to take action.

    Furthermore, the determination of "antisocial" behavior is not contingent upon knowing intent. Antisocial behavior is any behavior which is harmful to the society. Therefore, regardless of one's intention, antisocial behavior is antisocial behavior and will be dealt with accordingly. Anything that is adverse to the community environment of these boards is a candidate for being punished. And since the administration has deemed baiting to be adverse to the community, it is something which falls within the obligations of the administration, regardless of anyone's intent.

    2. He/she is not free to dish out any opinion they may so choose. They are only free to dish out opinions which conform to the rules of conduct and terms of service. As baiting is in opposition to to the rules of conduct and terms of service, opinions which engage in baiting are unacceptable opinions to post here.

    3. You are clearly incorrect. The rules of conduct and terms of service outline quite a number of "unethical" behaviours beyond insults, swears and flames. Furthermore, one type of behavior considered "unethical" by the administration is in fact baiting, so your argument is moot to begin with.
     
  15. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    So you can judge a flame but can't judge a bait? One man's flame is another man's joke.
     
  16. AssassinDroid21

    AssassinDroid21 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Baiting is everything flaming is, and deserves the punishment it gets. If I was allowed to post proof, I would show you Vader, but for now just listen to the mods, they're suprisingly right. ;)
     
  17. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    I hate to say this, but most of this comes down to common sense and it doesn't require "God-like" insight to recognize a flame and a bait.
     
  18. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    1. Having to "tell" anything is not at all a requirement to the administration's authority or a limitation of it. Or, put clearly, the following term of service which a poster agrees to is not contingent upon knowing any motives of anyone:
    "User acknowledges and agrees that the use of the Jedi Council Forums is a privilege, not a right, and that the administration of the Jedi Council has the right, at its sole discretion, to revoke this privilege at any time without notice should the administration deem it necessary."
    All the administration must do is deem it necessary to take action for it to have the right to take action.


    You should change the rules. They are flawed. It's clear that they do not follow a democratic rule:

    Perhaps this can inspire you to change a thing ot two:

    ******** [face_plain]


    2. He/she is not free to dish out any opinion they may so choose. They are only free to dish out opinions which conform to the rules of conduct and terms of service. As baiting is in opposition to to the rules of conduct and terms of service, opinions which engage in baiting are unacceptable opinions to post here.

    This will become invalid once the rules are changed accordingly...

    3. You are clearly incorrect. The rules of conduct and terms of service outline quite a number of "unethical" behaviours beyond insults, swears and flames. Furthermore, one type of behavior considered "unethical" by the administration is in fact baiting, so your argument is moot to begin with.

    I'm truly sorry, baiting is still under consideration - we are debating this now.

    I'm sure you will be laughing after reading this [face_laugh]

    So sad...
     
  19. AssassinDroid21

    AssassinDroid21 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2002
    5 bucks say that gets edited in 10 minutes, tops.
     
  20. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    You should change the rules. They are flawed. It's clear that they do not follow a democratic rule:


    This isn't a democracy, nor has it been or is it likely to become one.
     
  21. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    And you realize all your credibility went right down the toilet when you decided to treat us to that lil' spam session. :)
     
  22. Vader666

    Vader666 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2003
    You can come back when you're ready to post responsibly.
     
  23. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Vader...
    It is clear you have a vision of what you would like the Jedi Council to be.

    It is also clear that vision is different from what the Jedi Council actually is.

    I would suggest you read and gain understanding of our rules of conduct and terms of service to help you better come to terms with what the Jedi Council is as well as the differences between what it is and what your vision of it is. You can find the rules of conduct and terms of service here.
     
  24. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Unfortunately you fell for the bait

    That didn't seem like "baiting" in the definition we are using. Which seems to be the miscomprehension that you are suffering from.

    That was profanity -- which is a violation of the "vulgar" clause of the TOS. Thus, a warning.

    "Baiting" is the act of saying something that would otherwise be within the bounds of the TOS, but which has no other purpose than to incite someone else on the messageboard (a registered user only) to anger or the like. The BBS equivilent of yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater, a specific example that is exempted under free speech clauses at the federal level.

    Moreover, free speech doesn't exist here -- it's not a gov't institution. There's no First Amendment to apply. No "due process" law either. No democracy. Only volunteers trying to enforce the rules as best as possible.
     
  25. Grilled-Sarlacc

    Grilled-Sarlacc Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    Heh, banned for trolling.

    Baiting and trolling often go hand-in-hand. If you are baiting someone and they do not take the bait, so to speak, it may be overlooked. But if similar comments are seen again and are in a negative fashion, directed towards a user and obviously done in a manner to draw them into an argument, you are clearly baiting. And being a troll. So pick one.

    Arguing over points of view is one thing. Accusations, name-calling and the like i norder to draw someone into a shouting match are something else.
     
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