MS Update Mod Squad Update | September 22, 2002

I understand trying to throw us lowly members a bone, but come on. You might as well just come right out and tell us our opinions aren't as good as the Administration and you will continue to just choose only the people who you think are worthy. Nevermind that the Mods are actually supposed to serve US the membership, and we should therefore be allowed to have some sort of say in who moderates US.

Actually I think the criteria for a mod is that they're a fairly well known member and well-liked by a majority of posters in a forum. And that they know how to obey the rules and can be fair. Also, are you of the opinion that the moderators are 'corrupt' that issue has been brought up time and again. Personally I see some of what these critics are talking about. But it only makes sense to the critic because critic a's friend was banned for such and such a reason that was 'unfair'.

And even if we are not allowed such a privilege, the Administration should not try to appease us with false promises. After this, I truly think some of you think that the regular members have no brains at all. PMing a mod sock? Give us a little credit. We are not stupid, we know exactly how much our suggestions would matter (read: diddly squat), and something like that is just a clever ploy to sweep yet another issue under the rug.

The Modfather is not a mod's sock. He/she is every mod. I think, well from past experience I know it's never the same person. I think the reason why they chose to PM him is because they'd all read it and not just one moderator. Sort of a neutral person type deal. And I think you've completely misunderstand the difference between having a meaningful opinion that counts. And an opinion that is just trite and isn't worth anyone's time.

 

Is the other thread good enough, or would a new one and a locking of the old one be better?

 

Greg --
First off, a remodelling of this sort would cause a lot of trouble. There are a lot of excellent members who help out the administration here -- it's like society. You have to work in harmony with those above you to achieve balance and working order. Unfortunately, there are those who keep on complaining and trying to reform everything in this place; minds like this could be great if used in politics in the real world. But is this the real world? No. This place is a message board. Regular old "Joes" are what make these boards nice. And yet I see plenty of them attacked for the claim of "trying to become a mod". I think this whole issue is a jealousy of power and who holds it, as it is almost anywhere else.

Sure, a remodelling of the AC would be nice. Especially one where members would be more active with the JC. Perhaps with the next round of ACers, if the AC is still around, we could have more working together with the mods and the regular users alike. I honestly feel the reason the AC doesn't work is because the AC doesn't serve the link that well. Yes, they do a good job but I don't see how they're active enough on the JC -- not so much posting, but talking to users. I mean, I don't know if ACers do this, but if a user is banned, I think they should talk to both parties after a decision has been reached and then try and ease things up; perhaps talk to other ACers about what is going on, ask the banned user why they feel whatever they did to be banned should be allowed, etc. This is a crappy example, but it's an example.

 

Knightwriter: Does it really matter? New one or old one, I don't care.

 

F_I_D, if someone can completely miss the point of a post, you sure did. I never once mentioned corrupt, therefore I am not of that (in your opinion laughable) mindset. If you think that all it takes is to be well-liked and be a good member and then you're a mod, you are highly mistaken. There are many, MANY well-respected members who aren't mods.

And the fact that the Modfather is "every" mod pretty much makes it a sock right .

Like I said earlier, I think the Administration deserves respect. They do a lot for the members and generally run a good show here. But sometimes the consensus is that a mod or admin is better than a regular member (see: LMM's ego) and that their opinions count for more (see: this thread). This is the only point I am making. Nothing about corruption, just a few changes that would better serve to bridge the continually widening gap between mods and members.

 

This pisses me off, and I will say so right up front.

So damaging quotes from people's honest opinions are put out for all to see. And the people responsible for this laugh, and they congratulate themselves on a job well done.

Meanwhile, people who have good intentions and do the best they can for the members and their fellow admins have to clean up the mess they leave behind. We try our damndest, you know. I do, at least.

KW, you have been the least of anyone's problems in here, and it's a pity that you seem to be the one that has to clean up after everyone else. However, despite the intentions of the original poster, these remarks are out and I don't really think that anyone who happened to have read that post can forget what was said, nor should.

With that kind of attitude, I now understand why the AC hasn't been effective, and why so many regular members feel that their voice cannot, no will not, be heard.

 

QGJ, I've re-read those comments. Please remember that almost anything anyone says can be twisted and manipulated to make it seem like something completely different from what the original intent was.

The admin in question is not even here to defend or explain herself, and that doesn't seem very fair at all, and nor does hacking into what is intended to be a private forum. I believe what was said was that people would be upset if there was a lot of nominations made, but what if we went outside those nominations?

It's a fair point, but in reality, when you think it through, it's not likely to happen if a lot of people send in nominations. I'm just arguing that for the sake of defending my fellow admin, assuming I have the quotes correct, and making the point that if you put something in a negative light with negative explanation, it seems, well negative.

 

A few things to note:

There may be a moderator who doesn't want to see someone become a mod, and they could quickly shun away a nomination and forever doom someone's chance at becoming a mod? I mean, I hate to break the spirit here, but even if there are arguments in the mod squad, the whole group normally acts as a group.

That is true. Sometimes people essentially filibuster a certain person for personal reasons. It has happened before and it will continue to do so. Why? Often, those "personal reasons" are signs of a greater problem with that user. It doesn't forever doom someone's chances. Being banned - even for long periods of time - does not mean you cannot reform and do good for this place. All is judged, past and present, and every grievance taken into account. We're not all that sloppy in picking mods.

We should be able to decide who would be best to moderate us, and that's why this new nomination scheme was proposed.

I like how this comes up everytime there's nominations in the wind. It's true, you should have a voice. You know what? You do. We look at who we know, but also at who is known as a quality poster. There is a degree of asking around, watching users not that well known to us. But we do acknowledge that there is still a lacking, and that is behind this new proposal.

Why have regular members nominate people who'll be mods to begin with? If it's that way, it'll turn into a popularity contest instead of actually voting.

That is also a very valid point many of you seem to shy away from. There are a lot of cliques at the JC, a lot of groups that make certian decisions hard. We do our best to make informed, rational decisions based on the information we have been given, can find out and just know.

A complete remodeling of the Advisory Council, complete with a true useful purpose

I want to say this is one of the key reasons I have returned. I thought the AC was a great idea, a checks and balance to the Administration, a group that could tell us things for a change. I stand by the spirit of the idea and hope we can fix it.



If you really want your nominations for new mods to be heard, by all means PM me whenever you have an idea and I will keep putting those names forward as the People's Choices if some new, official policy is not decided on. I don't want to see a bunch of howling users upset because of ineffectual leadership or because they feel disenfranchised.

 

F_I_D, if someone can completely miss the point of a post, you sure did. I never once mentioned corrupt, therefore I am not of that (in your opinion laughable) mindset. If you think that all it takes is to be well-liked and be a good member and then you're a mod, you are highly mistaken. There are many, MANY well-respected members who aren't mods.

I don't think so. I think any reasonable person would draw the same conclusion from your post. You do not say it, but you're implying it whether purposefully or not, you do. Hmm....lemme find the PM from Nathtan. He told me the criteria. Lemme find it.

And the fact that the Modfather is "every" mod pretty much makes it a sock right .

That is a double answer.

Like I said earlier, I think the Administration deserves respect. They do a lot for the members and generally run a good show here. But sometimes the consensus is that a mod or admin is better than a regular member (see: LMM's ego) and that their opinions count for more (see: this thread). This is the only point I am making. Nothing about corruption, just a few changes that would better serve to bridge the continually widening gap between mods and members.


Ego's are bound to happen with anything. I've seen more than a few of them from regular members than from admins. But then again that's just my particular opinion.

 

I think the problem is, KW, that 11 members of the administration have been on in the last 10 minutes, and 3 have posted on this point, only 2 of which were constructive.

EDIT: Make that 4 and 3, respectively.

 

Lord Bane --
That post of mine, regarding personal grudges, is true with the whole world. And normally I feel the greater reason, as you name it, is either jealousy or fear.

I want to say this is one of the key reasons I have returned. I thought the AC was a great idea, a checks and balance to the Administration, a group that could tell us things for a change. I stand by the spirit of the idea and hope we can fix it.
-- Now, this is something I'd love to see discussed more fully. There are many ideas floating around from multiple users; apparently the AC and it not living up to what it could (and since I don't know, maybe was proposed to?) be is where a lot of people come off targetting the administration here... it's their loophole saying that the Mod Squad is messed up because they didn't consult the AC. I don't really know, but it could have been the other way around. Probably both. Lack of communication kills.

 

The AC was to be the place regular users go to submit ideas, report mod infractions, report board problems (non-tech) and so forth - all the things Comm is used for, but this time, the mods cannot simply give a generic answer. The AC would be given equivalent status as a part of the Administration, able with support to even get a mod banned. It fizzled after maybe three and a half, four months, sad to say.

 

Okay guys, can we all calm down for a second please?

Now, I was the one who wrote the relevant section of the update that seems to have dominated the last 100 odd posts, so don't start attcking other mods, or puting words into their mouths. The thread about member nominations was started two days ago in MS, so there's really just initial reactions and suggestions. That's it. There are no definitive outcomes, or anything that resembles such. I know that my thoughts have altered slightly, just from reading what has been said jediguy's thread that started this. I also find the suggestion here about using the AC to be an interesting one, and a possible way to do this.

But again, there is nothing sorted, or even close to decided.

jediguy: Could we perhaps continue the discussion about Mod Nominations in another thread?

My thoughts exactly. For the moment, continue the discussion if you wish in the current thread, or create a new one to focus solely on that, but don't flood this thread with it please.

Also, on the AC issue, I will post the thread sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks.

 

Concering the Advisory Council --
How were the members picked? I assume the Mod Squad picked them. This might sound rather silly, but perhaps you could change members more often? And of course, replace memebrs who appear to be inactive? I mean, there's a policy on mods being inactive. Perhaps the same sort of policy for AC members?

 

Actually, the AC picked the members last time (and will do so again if allowed to continue), and the admins only check to make sure the candidates "check out," so to speak.

 

Apart from the initial batch of AC members, the mods have had no say in who sits on the AC. The appointment of new members, and the decision over it's membership structure is in the AC members hands.

 

Perhaps one fault with the AC was allowing them to have complete control? Maybe when picking next time, if it continues, the mod squad could pick half of the members and then the AC pick the other half? This way, there'd be at least two opinions on who should be in, and there would be (or in theory, hopefully, etc) a more active group. I'd also think having the JC users electing an ACer would be nice, but the drama ensued would be too large right now for me to even mention any ideas on that. But a more diversely selected group would hopefully bring more life to the group.

 

Interesting suggestion RMCOY. The only thing I'll say is to keep stockpiling the ideas on the AC until I post the thread on it, which is looking to be like tomorrow at the moment, where we will be wanting suggestions, ideas and debate over the AC.

 

Alright, then. I'll refrain from posting anything else until that thread is posted.

 

KW, your efforts are greatly appreciated. You, too, Bane. Keeping the peace is everyone's concern, and everyone wants to ensure no one is runned over in the cross traffic. Improvements are as diverse as a 50 foot salad bar, so many different points of view.

I think mostly members are concerned that whomever is selected, is not selected by a barage of socks voting; that new selections come from across the board; that new selections are not partisan to certain groupies that could create a conflict of interest; that the new selections can be a balance on the board.

*holds glass of gatorade up*
Here's a toast to the future of us, and to better days ahead......and we will survive the rainy days, because we all luv SW and the JC.

 

Through disagreement and resolution comes progress.

 

Thanks for the update. It was a pretty interesting week from the sound of it.

 

Wonderul Update, jedi-mind-trick

 

HOLY CRAP! Lord Bane's back!?!?!?!?! OMG This kicks arse