Mod Squad Update: Week Ending 8/27/03

I'm one step ahead of you.

 

I figured so.

 

I didn't know the Lit Forums were hostile either, unless you let people know you're an SOTJ member; but I rarely post there.

Why would the Lit Forum be hostile to NJO writers though? ? That doesn't make much sense.

I definitely have found the Movie Forums too hostile, so I don't post there anymore. It's a great place to go if you want to bash Anakin, but in general, they make the Senate Floor look like kindergarten coloring time.

 

all those film history ideas, if made in the Amphitheatre, would actually help the forum move away from the Movie Community forum feel it currently has to something more like the Senate.

and i'm appreciative of what's come out of the baiting incident.

 

I didn't know the Lit Forums were hostile either, unless you let people know you're an SOTJ member; but I rarely post there.

I won't tell the forum I post at SOTJ if you don't.

 

LOL Gandy.

*zips lips*

 

I've never noticed any hostility in Lit either, unless someone goes in saying a bunch of negative stuff about the EU, in which case I think they have it coming.

 

Yeah, if you go into the Lit forums and slam the EU, except on certain EU critics forums, then I'd say you probably do.

Kind of like going in the Fanfic forums and bashing fanfic.

 

But at the same time, people can still go to the movie forums and bash the movies and have a lot of people on their side.

 

To clarify the Lit. "hostility to fan-fic'ers," there is no active hostility in any way to fan-fiction authors. Instead what there is, is "full-contact discussion." There is a debate mentality in Lit. (which, I do have to note has pretty much always existed there) that turns some people off, as it sometimes tends to become too adversarial for their tastes. Evidently, fan-fiction authors (who are big EU fans) tend to have the same low tolerance for this sort of style and have been turned off of the forum.

IMO, this "debate" style of discussions is a side-effect of drawing in as regular users some of the most intelligent, educated and informed users of this site. While it may not necessarily be quite a pretty sight when one witnesses the power of fully operational Lit people duelling, it certainly is entertaining.

I think the concern's valid. But, to be honest, I'm not quite sure what to do, since it was specifically that forum "style" or "attitude" which drew me and many others I've known over the years here to that forum. So, since I'm at a loss, that's why I threw it out to the bigger audience.

If nothing else, at least we know about it.

..."And knowing is half the battle."

 

While it may not necessarily be quite a pretty sight when one witnesses the power of fully operational Lit people duelling, it certainly is entertaining.

Taking part in them isn't exactly boring, is it? I've had my matches with Genghis (see my bio about that), back in my Lit days. I even managed to come out still standing.

I do still drop in occasionally, but I've tended to migrate more and more toward the Senate (for more obvious reasons in the last month).

Kimball Kinnison

 

I prefer dueling in the Senate myself.

But at the same time, people can still go to the movie forums and bash the movies and have a lot of people on their side.

Yeah, don't get me started on that one, ousley.

Evidently, fan-fiction authors (who are big EU fans) tend to have the same low tolerance for this sort of style and have been turned off of the forum.

Interesting that you mention that there's a debate mentality in lit--some of my friends from the Senate Floor are also regular Lit posters.

Not all of us fanfic'ers are EU fans, though. One reason I'm not in Lit that much is because I'm pretty much a purist--the Thrawn trilogy and The Approaching Storm was about all I could handle.

I just wasn't sure why NJO writers would find EU-centric forums hostile, but I guess Genghis's explanation clears that up.

 

But at the same time, people can still go to the movie forums and bash the movies and have a lot of people on their side.

I think that's partially because the movies are more central to fandom than the rest of the expanded universe. Fans who don't like EU will usually just stop reading it after a few books and not go near it again. The movies, on the other hand, are something most fans feel they have to watch many times whether they like them or not. So, people who don't like a given film (or parts of a film) tend to have more charged opinions and are more willing to defend them. The greater prevalence of bashing in the movie forums is more a consequence of human nature than anything we can control by moderating.

 

PMs are all private. Both parties must agree to post them.

I think that this should be "The author must agree to have his/her PMs posted"

I don't think that I should need Sapient's permission (for example) to reproduce or quote a PM I sent to him....but if I'm going to quote his PMs to me, I need his permission. Likewise, Sape shouldnt need my permission to copy things he PMed to me in the Mod Squad (or any other forum), but he needs my permission before copying my replies in there.

 

I don't think you should need anyone's permission to post PMs so long as the person posting is either the writer or recipient. If I want to tell the world what I told you privately so what? And if you send one to me, it becomes my property. Just don't write anything in a PM you don't want to become public. Kind of the same principle of a letter becoming known to the public, especially if the contents are important. It isn't like anything in a PM can be considered as priviledged communication in the same manner as say priest-penitent, attorney-client, or doctor-patient can.

Just don't write anything in a PM you wouldn't want shown to the world.

 

//eyes stare at brilliantness of update


Nice job, Sapient! Congrats to G-S and j-m-t as well.

 

I want to tell the world what I told you privately so what? And if you send one to me, it becomes my property.

I don't know if you're looking at this from both perspectives. What you're saying also means that when you send a PM to me your words become my property?
That's ridiculous, they're still your words and your property. I know you'd like to think that all PMs you recieve become your property, but I don't think you would feel the same way about the ones you're sending and others are recieving.
There's a reason that these messages were sent by PM (Private Message) and not posted on the boards... the author, in many cases, probably wants to keep the contents secret.
In any case, I still think that the author should consent to have their PM's posted, but the recipient need not consent.

 

I agree with Fate.

 

Fate...
"but if I'm going to quote his PMs to me, I need his permission. Likewise, Sape shouldnt need my permission to copy things he PMed to me in the Mod Squad (or any other forum), but he needs my permission before copying my replies in there."

Well, there's the slight caveat to that with respect to PM's copied for administrative business, as opposed to other instances of copying PM's. If done for adminisitrative purposes, Sape does not necessarily need your permission to repost in ModSquad.

The use of PM's at this site is a privilege, not a right, granted to users by the administration. If used for administrative business, the privilege of privacy which covers Private Messages that is allowed by the administration may and has been revoked by the administration. However, this is a very rare event whenever something like this has to happen.

 

Edit. Nevermind. Misunderstood.

 

I'll also add the caveat that if a PM you send directly relates to a PM you have recieved, then its content may include things that you need the other persons permission to repost, until Sape or another Admin gives further notice. This isn't a blanket ban, which would be silly. This is just a call to use common sense in what you repost of what you have sent.

 

I don't know if you're looking at this from both perspectives. What you're saying also means that when you send a PM to me your words become my property?
That's ridiculous, they're still your words and your property. I know you'd like to think that all PMs you recieve become your property, but I don't think you would feel the same way about the ones you're sending and others are recieving.
There's a reason that these messages were sent by PM (Private Message) and not posted on the boards... the author, in many cases, probably wants to keep the contents secret.

Absolutely. Let's use a real world analogy of a letter. Legally (and yes I realize this is a internet board and the law doesn't apply) if I write you a letter, upon receipt it becomes your property to do with as you please. You can wad it up, throw it out, photocopy it and put it on every billboard on campus. It is up to me to exercise caution in what I want to write you, the assumption being that you might put it someplace the world can read it. Any humilitation or loss of reputation I recieve is my fault since it was my words in the first place. Likewise anything I send to you is still allowed to be published publically by me. It is still up to me to exercise caution in the first place.

So if the legal thinking is the letter is the property of the receipient and his/hers to do with as he/she pleases, why is a PM considered to be different? Because it's in a different format? Nope, emails are now being treated by the courts as the same a letters. So how is this different again?

I know it's this places rules, but it doesn't make sense, especially since the admins can still do what they want with them (e.g. post them in the MS).

 

Just on the topic of reposting private messages, I posted this in another Comms thread and have yet to receive an answer (although Genghis had a swing at it. ) I think it's fairly relevant here:

"OK, so is it fair to say that mods strictly don't republish the private messages of users in MS anymore unless it's of utmost urgency? "

 

Absolutely. Let's use a real world analogy of a letter. Legally (and yes I realize this is a internet board and the law doesn't apply) if I write you a letter, upon receipt it becomes your property to do with as you please. You can wad it up, throw it out, photocopy it and put it on every billboard on campus. It is up to me to exercise caution in what I want to write you, the assumption being that you might put it someplace the world can read it. Any humilitation or loss of reputation I recieve is my fault since it was my words in the first place. Likewise anything I send to you is still allowed to be published publically by me. It is still up to me to exercise caution in the first place.

Actually, depending on the exact nature of the letter, that is not true. You still would hold the copyright on that letter. The recipient can only make "fair use" of it without needing your permission. Any other use (including commercial use) would require your authorization.

So if the legal thinking is the letter is the property of the receipient and his/hers to do with as he/she pleases, why is a PM considered to be different? Because it's in a different format? Nope, emails are now being treated by the courts as the same a letters. So how is this different again?

Go look up the Berne Convention, of which the US is a member. Everything that you write is copywritten as you write it. Any copying of it (other than fair use provisions) without a license from you is illegal.

I know it's this places rules, but it doesn't make sense, especially since the admins can still do what they want with them (e.g. post them in the MS).

How do you know what is or is not posted in the ModSquad?

In the month since I was made a moderator, I have seen 1 (count that, 1) PM posted in ModSquad, and that was with the permission of the person who sent it. In the cases where an administrator is asked to check the contents of a user's PMs for some reason, the administrator has only confirmed or denied the infractions. They have not posted the PMs.

OK, so is it fair to say that mods strictly don't republish the private messages of users in MS anymore unless it's of utmost urgency?

Remove the word strictly. We don't do it as a rule. Only the administrators have access to the PMs and they don't post them without a clear and justifiable reason to do so.

Kimball Kinnison

 

DA...
Had a swing at it? Bah, I knocked it out of the park.