Saga Mommy, where do baby Jedi come from?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darth ladnar, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
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    I know this is an embarrassing topic, but the Jedi Council Forums is well into its teenage years, and it's time that we have this conversation. It's a topic that has greater mysteries than the Force itself, but just because we don't know all the answers, we know we can't put this conversation off forever. So, let's be responsible and do the best we can.

    So, here's the big thing I've been wondering about. Force potential clearly has a strong genetic component. The Force runs strong in Vader's family. He has it, his son has it, his daughter has it, his grand-children have it. GL has even revealed the biological component that puts a top limit on Force potential, midi-chlorians, and presumably, like all biological components, it is passed on from parents to their children. The Saga seems to suggest this is the case, and the EU provides many more examples of the Force running strong in families.

    Here's the problem. The Jedi philosophy, at least one interpretation of it, seems to create quite a challenge to the creation of new Force-sensitives. It has been suggested that the Jedi remain chaste throughout their lives. If they are the individuals who have the greatest Force potential, and they don't have children, then their potential won't be passed on, and over the generations, Force sensitivity will become rarer and rarer.

    However, there is a second interpretation of the Jedi attitude toward relationships. It is clear that the Jedi forbid marriage because of the strong attachment associated with it. However, casual hook-ups to, you know... just have a good time, might not be explicitly forbidden since a high level of attachment is not part of a casual relationship. So, this may be where new Force-sensitives come from. On the other hand, if the Jedi are truly expected to be chaste (and they also actually follow this rule), then this leaves the big question about how new Force-sensitives come into the universe. Are they just products of gene mutations? Or is there some other explanation?

    So, what's the answer? Are Jedi allowed to procreate even though they cannot marry and is this where new Force-sensitives come from? Or do Jedi remain celibate throughout their lives, and if this is case, then it raises the question of how new Force-sensitives come into existence? Or is the answer that they are not coming from anywhere because the practices of the Jedi are actually breeding Force-sensitives out of existence?

    So again, I know talking about the birds and the wompats is hard, but we can't avoid the subject on these forums forever, and if we don't answer these questions here, then who knows what other sources might be turned to for answers. I mean, those who are desperate for answers might even to turn the Internet to learn about this type of thing, and just think of all the crazies on the Internet and all the weirdo stuff that's so easy to find! I mean, the Internet must be the absolutely worst place to turn to for answers! :p
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 6, 2013
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  2. Han Burgundy Force Ghost

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    Jan 28, 2013
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    1. It's a big, big galaxy. Even if an entire generation of Jedi die off without procreation, It's still statistically likely that the forse-sensitive "gene" will pop up in a few people at some point.

    2. Although its been debated numerous times whether the force is a sentient entity, the undeniable truth as stated by several characters is that the force has a "will". Remember, the force is present within all living things, and with its will it can "choose" certain people to give force-sensitivity.
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  3. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I don't think anything has been stated definitively in the films or by GL himself (with something as fundamental as this, the EU can't really be taken into account) - however, I think that the question about whether Force sensitivity is passed from one generation to the next is answered somewhat by the PT's establishment of the Jedi philosophy forbidding marriage and attachment. If it was the case that Force sensitivity was a simple case of genetics, the Jedi would be breeding their younglings, not searching for them (as would the Sith).

    The Skywalker family? As I've already stated in another thread, the Force running strongly in the family was something out of the ordinary, hence why it's stated repeatedly, and I suppose making Anakin a sort of Messiah (or Antichrist) provides some explanation for that. It's a fantasy conceit, rather than a sci-fi one - the Skywalkers are much the same as the line of Elros (Isildur, Aragorn et al) in LOTR, or the Targaryens in ASOIAF.
  4. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Jul 7, 2009
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    Force sensitivity can be achieved without Force sensitive parents.
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  5. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    Apr 16, 2008
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    That is a brilliant explanation. Though we would have to discard much of the EU for that to apply, I quite like the idea that the Skywalker family being unique in that aspect.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    Technically, the undeniable truth is only that those characters believe the Force has a will.

    That doesn't seem at all relevant. If the Jedi wanted to start a youngling breeding program, they could presumably do so without getting involved in marriage and attachment. Also, midichlorian inheritance due to genetics may be slightly more complex than what we might envision.

    It seems telling that as soon as Qui-Gon figures out that Anakin's Force-sensitive, the first thing he does is to ask about the boy's father. This is well before any discovery of previously unseen midichlorian count levels - Anakin has only been identified as a potential Jedi, not any kind of Chosen One. His skill is referred to as a Jedi trait, not an exclusive Chosen One ability. Before hearing that there was no father, Qui-Gon seems to assume that Anakin's father must have been a Force-sensitive who passed the Force-sensitivity down to Anakin. Sure, Anakin could have been part of a unique family who all have Force potential just because they have a magic last name or something, a family in which Force-sensitivity is inherited from one's parents even though it doesn't work that way for anyone else, but if that were actually the case, this would have been Qui-Gon's first contact with any part of the phenomenon - and thus he would have had no reason to assume any such thing.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 7, 2013
  7. darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 15, 2012
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    Ki Adi Mundi was allowed to have children, he the daddy!
  8. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 20, 2013
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    This is also what I was wondering about. Are the Jedi only not allowed to marry but also forbidden from having children and having a little fun? Or are the Jedi not required to be chaste? Or is having a casual fling frowned upon but tolerated -- it won't get you thrown out of the order but they advise against it?
  9. thebeanpole Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 11, 2013
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  10. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

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  11. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

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    The stork brings Jedi babies to the Temple on Coruscant. Except for that one time when the stork got incredibly drunk after delivering a baby on Corellia, had a monster hangover later, and just dropped off a Jedi kid with that nice Skywalker lady.
  12. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
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    I know this isn't the most reliable source, but this IMDb page (http://www.imdb.com/news/ni0058482/) says:

    "Jedi Knights have sex after all, according to George Lucas, creator of the characters' hit sci-fi series Star Wars. Speculation that the lightsaber-wielding warriors were supposed to live a monk-like existence has been rife since details of Attack Of The Clones began to leak out. In the new flick Jedi Anakin Skywalker's character shares forbidden love with Queen Amidala, but Lucas says it's romance, rather than hanky panky, which is banned by the Jedi code. He says, "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships." No Jedi Knight has yet been seen with a partner in any of the five Star Wars movies."

    So, this could be the answer after all.

    Has anyone ever heard anything to contradict this?
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 7, 2013
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  13. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    ^That is interesting, if the words did indeed come from Lucas himself. I don't really know of anything from the films that either supports or contradicts this; although in the EU, Aayla Secura supposedly had a relationship of sorts with Kit Fisto. Quinlan Vos was also known to have struggled with relationships.

    Also, I'd like to clarify that Ki-Adi-Mundi was allowed to have children due to the fact that his species (Cereans) had a notoriously low birthrate, compounded by the fact that males aged more quickly than females, so their culture was steeped in polygamous relationships out of necessity.

    Now, I know this and the above info is technically EU, but I'd like to note that Jedi Council Master Stass Allie (in RotS) was a cousin of Adi Gallia (Council member in TPM and AotC), whose bloodline ran strong with the Force. So this is actually consistent with the idea that the Force can run strong in families, as was the case with the offspring of Anakin Skywalker. Though if what that IMDb page says is true, then it may be possible that other Jedi Council members that looked alike could in fact be related thanks to---a number of trysts, if you will. I'm thinking Eeth Koth and Agen Kolar in addition to the aforementioned Adi Gallia and Stass Allie.
    Last edited by Circular Logic, Sep 7, 2013
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  14. thebeanpole Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 11, 2013
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    So according to this, if a Jedi decides to go out on a date and get involved in a relationship it's wrong, but there's nothing wrong with a Jedi walking into the nearest brothel to spend the night with prostitutes?

    Ok then...
  15. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
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    I believe he asked that after he sensed that the "Force is unusually strong with him", even for Force sensitives, I assume. Only after he learn that there was no father is that he starts to think about the prophecy.

    That seems to be more of a quick "red carpet-like" reply. Celibate may not be forbidden in their code but it's implied.
  16. thebeanpole Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 11, 2013
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    That's kind of what I figured. At least it's not as bad as when he's interviewed and he calls lightsabers "laser swords"!
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    They are laser swords after all. It's like calling "ship" or "fighter" to an X-Wing.
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  18. thebeanpole Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 11, 2013
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    This is true, I suppose. But they're a little more iconic, even to non-star wars fans. It's like calling Luke "that Jedi kid", just sounds kind of weird...
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    There's a discussion about this in Lit right now as well and I'm repeating a bit of my answer in here, but...

    Yes, exactly. Sex and romance often are connected but that doesn't mean they absolutely must be.

    And sex without romance does not automatically mean spending the night with prostitutes in a brothel. There is the friends-with-benefits relationship, and I think that is what many Jedi had.
  20. thebeanpole Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2013
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    Yeah I guess I kind of jumped to the worst possible conclusion with what I said previously...obviously, sex without romance does not necessarily mean prostitutes, and most of the time it doesn't.

    Your point about friends-without benefits definitely makes sense, especially when one is talking about casual or unattached sex. It makes sense, too. After all, a group of peacekeepers/warriors who are essentially the guardians of the republic probably don't need the added difficulties and challenges that long-term relationships bring. I'm not, of course, trying to bash long-term relationships, just saying that in the case of the Jedi it makes the most sense to not get tied down.

    The way I see it, it's kind of a like working on the police force or something. Sure, there will probably be the occasional sexual encounters between male and female officers, but most of the time male officers and female officers probably wouldn't be getting married. It just probably doesn't do a whole lot of good for a police department to have a bunch of married policemen/women.

    Kind of a rough example, but the best I could think up off the top of my head. The Jedi are the defenders of the galaxy, and to live their way of life probably means that most of the time marriage just isn't practical.
    Last edited by thebeanpole, Sep 7, 2013
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  21. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

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    May 27, 1999
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    Okay, seriously...

    ANH and TESB make it clear that the Force connects all living things, hence everyone is Force-sensitive in one way or another. Thus, it seems that anyone has the potential, or at least the possibility, of having Jedi-level abilities, or not. So, I figure that the Jedi, rather than trying to maintain the Order through a near-eugenics type of arrangement, relied on a baby's family to recognize the possibility of Jedi traits and let them know. Or, as Qui-Gon noted, letting the Will of the Force guide them to candidates. I also tend to agree with the idea that a particular family line (like the Skywalkers)being consistently strong in the Force to be so rare as to be unheard of.

    As for marriage, it's established that the Order only allows marriage under unusual circumstances. So far as I know, maintaining the Jedi line through breeding doesn't seem to be covered. In that respect, you'd figure the Jedi would routinely arrange marriages. (Thus, instead of objecting to Ani marrying at all, they'd object to him marrying Padme in particular, and not some more Force-sensitive girl they'd pick.) Instead, they largely put aside the whole concept of marriage, either for love or duty, as too close to forming forbidden attachments.

    So, looking at it that way, I figure that the Jedi basically just trust in the Force and biology to provide baby Jedi. And the stork. And Porky and Daffy.
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  22. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    Apr 16, 2008
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    I'm really enjoying this thread. Great stuff from all of you!
  23. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    That's a very good point, totally forgot about that line. It certainly does suggest that parentage and inherited genetics were important factors that could contribute to Force sensitivity.

    I still believe that the emphasis in the OT upon the Force running strongly in the Skywalker family hints that they were somehow special and important in that respect - blessed, Chosen, etc - but Qui-Gon's line definitely points towards it not being something necessarily rare or unique. Perhaps having Force sensitive parents gave a child a higher chance of being Jedi potential, but not necessarily so, and it could work the other way around (similar to magical abilities in the Harry Potter series).
  24. Sarge Chosen One

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    Oct 4, 1998
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    When two midichlorians love each other very much, they share a special kind of hug. Now be quiet, the game is on, your mother will explain the rest to you.
  25. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

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    Apr 16, 2008
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