Lit MON MOTHMA IS BACK, Ackbar Approved -- The Lit Forum Ketchup Thread, v3

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Point Given, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    It's about more than a statue -- it's an archaic relic honoring the slavery days. And it's far from the last one standing. These things should have been taken down a long time ago. It's like keeping statues of Hitler and his commanders around. But for some reason "Hitler" and "Nazi" gets the "evil" message across faster than "African slavery" for some people. [face_plain]
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  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Speaking as a Southerner as well, a lot of "Southern heritage" memorials are used as excuses and rallying points for....well, kriffheads. Pardon my Huttese. They wave the Confederate flag, honor General Forrest for his army days (and TOTALLY not his KKK founding *sarcasm*), and talk about the Civil War as a complicated Gray and Gray Morality story when the Southern Declaration of Independence spells out they were doing it for slavery. De-Confederatization is something I support as it allows us to confront our past heritage and the fact, yes, some of my answers were kriffheads.

    In this case, the city was taking down the statue because it was honoring General Lee not because of his work as an educator or his role in Arlington cemetery but because of his position as a Confederate general. It's a statue of him in full dress uniform. I'm one of those guys who think that kind of history needs to be taken in context and supported the removal of Andrew Jackson from the $20 for the same reason.

    You're entitled to disagree but the pitchfork armed Nazis are people I think were looking for an excuse and even if they weren't, they were violent dirtbags to begin with. I don't mind "provoking" them because they've tried to keep their agenda going with violence for over a century and a half.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Aug 13, 2017
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I remember a flame war I got with a number of posters on the No Mutants Allowed site over the Mafia 3 game and upcoming Red Dead Redemption 2 title. I was enthusiastic about the possibility of murdering as many (fictional) KKK members as possible.

    They were saying that was....you know, I don't even understand their argument but APPARENTLY they weren't acceptable targets.
  4. vncredleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2016
    star 4
    seriously what the heck kind of argument blames the fact that people chose to respond to something with racist chants and torches, on the freaking fact that people wanted to take down an embodiment of the legacy of slavery in this nation? if taking that statue down aggravated people then so be it, we cannot become complacent and allow these types of evil persist due to our own fear. if people wanna attack violently cause someone wanted to do the right thing then the moral is not to refuse to do the right thing; the moral is to stand against racism and face down those who choose to perpetuate it. If these mother f-ers wanna run around with semi automatics in the middle of a crowd of counter protesters it is not the fault of the counter protesters, it is the fault of the evil ba*****s in those militias, it is the fault of the terrorist running a 32 year old woman over, it is the fault of the police for not taking better counter measures. This is not on the city, this is only ONLY on the people who choose to threaten others with torches and guns and to murder people with cars.

    You did not blame New York for building the World Trade Center did you? But what happens when white terrorists murder people? People blame the counter protesters and the city for trying to take down racist propaganda.

    I grow more disgusted with my country daily.
  5. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    I'm as Republican as they come and even I don't see the point of the Lee statue. He was fighting for a bunch of treasonous racists. Don't honor that.
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  6. fett 4 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    It's also what aboutery. Taking down the Statues is oppressing there White rights etc .… I mean common !!!

    I'm also disgusted with a lot of the so called Commentators that are now silent or distancing themselves from this. Especially as they helped stir up these people. This NRA Add was almost insightment
    https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/29/15892508/nra-ad-dana-loesch-yikes
    Last edited by fett 4, Aug 13, 2017
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  7. vncredleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2016
    star 4
    Dear god in f-ing heaven is that disgusting. I mean the NRA was always disturbing but still just WOW.
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  8. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    You did NOT just say "well, if they hadn't taken down the statue."

    I was wondering if it were possible to have a worse take on this than Donald Trump. And it turns out that yes, there is.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
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  9. Darth_Duck Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2000
    star 4
    My hometown has also been caught up in a statue controversy.

    Our founder was not a nice man. He English military during the "pacification" of the Scottish Highlands before he ended up here. Once here he issued a bounty for Mi'kmaq scalps because of ongoing conflict in the region. This bounty has left a real bad taste in people's mouths given the notoriously crappy deal Canada's First Nations have received over the centuries.

    A while ago some First Nations were doing a ceremony at the statue calling for its removal when a bunch of "Proud Boys" who had been at a nearby bar decided to crash the event waving the old Canadian flag and singing "God save the Queen"
    Things got heated but cooler heads prevailed. But the rhetoric has been pushed up a few notches. I'm worried one of these Proud Boys is gonna take inspiration from Charlottesville and ram a car through the next protest. Some of the Proud Boys were active military officers. The brass was not impressed. But with this and the talk around the Omar Khadr payout I'm really worried about Canadian alt-right rising.

    Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    White supremacists are not responsible for how they react to people who oppose white supremacy I guess.
  11. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    In the last six months every side of the aisle has been blatantly calling for violence against the other. It's disgusting - and both right and left deserve blame for the climate.
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    We live in a time where ironic racism has been revealed to lead to direct racism or just have been a cover for it all along.
  13. vncredleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2016
    star 4
    Yeah but the left is not marching around with armed militias during peaceful counter protests. the left was not trying to break into churches that where locked up to protect people. The left may not be perfect but come on after a woman was just brutally murdered by the right I think it is insensitive to say something like that.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I was born to the Southern Far Right.

    And then I realized above all things, the Southern Far Right only care about limiting government and maximizing free speech when it agrees with their views.

    It's violence when the Left does it, civil disobedience when the Right does it

    Its free speech when the Right does it, propaganda and SJW when the Left does it.

    Who'd think a group so defined by macho culture and violence would be such a massive group of whiners.
  15. vncredleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2016
    star 4
    To steal a thing Nash of radio dead air said "I have never seen the technical winners of an election act so much like poor losers"
  16. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    As someone whose family has been in North Carolina for 300 years and who actually has an ancestor who was killed in battle fighting for the Confederate side...well put.

    Yes, that flag is my family's "history," but that's half a sentence, the other half being "which needs to be left in the 1860s where it belongs."

    And I have seen a lot of "Hey look over there" in Internet comment sections that I am masochistic enough to read, but it doesn't work.

    Fighting against white supremacy is more morally correct than fighting for white supremacy.

    "I don't like the Black Lives Matter movement" is not an excuse for driving a car into a crowd and killing people. Nor is it an excuse for bringing firearms, water bottles full of concrete, or canisters of mace to a protest, and then claiming that the protest is intended to be nonviolent and that it's the damn SJW anti-free-speech commies who caused the violence.

    In fact, I would argue that it would be morally reprehensible if no (unarmed and nonviolent) counterprotestors showed up, if people did stay complacent and leave white supremacy alone.
  17. vncredleader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2016
    star 4
    VERY VERY well put my friend
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  18. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 6
    Hey maybe if Emmett Till didn't whistle at a white woman he wouldn't have been killed.

    And the Marchers at Selma? If they hadn't marched they wouldn't have been attacked.

    Oh wait, those are terrible arguments. And similar to the drivel you posted above. Honestly it seems there isn't a crime committed by a white nationalist big enough that won't be excused.
    Last edited by Point Given, Aug 13, 2017
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  19. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    Well they made a huge announcement city wide vote that were known by these white supremacist crazies well in advance.
    And what did they achieve? The state court stayed the statue removal for 6 months due to a historical society took the issue to court. It's staying for at least 6 months due to historical value. A scum killed an innocent person. The victim could be living right now. I thought everyone was for saving lives so much they want to surrender the first time they could.
    I am not defending white supremacy here. I am defending equality. And Trump gets condemned?! for not blaming the right enough? What is he supposed to do as US president? He already said blame is on all sides. Is he supposed to say All hail non white supremacy?
    And mods, should someone want to continue this line of discussion (I don't) Maybe move these comments down to the JC Community US Policy thread? This thread is for Literature social.
    Last edited by DARTH_MU, Aug 13, 2017
  20. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 6
    A social thread is a catch-all thread. There's nothing off topic about this line of discussion. If you don't want to participate in this particular discussion, then don't participate. But that doesn't mean the rest of us won't.
  21. fett 4 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    This is an off topic thread for the lit forum. I don't see why we can't talk about it but let's be clear. Star Wars is about a fight against Space Nazis. We are discussing real Nazis and what they are doing now in 2017
  22. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

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    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    Yes, Trump is supposed to condemn white supremacy. Full stop. Because there is no "b...bu...but" statement that can be made here. The very definition of "defending equality" is condemnation of white supremacy.

    If (general) you view a condemnation of white supremacy as "all hail non-white supremacy"--or view white supremacy as a belief system that is worth any sort of glossing over or respect--you are part of the problem.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Aug 13, 2017
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  23. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    He's supposed to condemn supremacy, which he did by saying blame is on all sides. He's not supposed to condemn whites or a political spectrum (alt-right).
  24. starfish Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2003
    star 4
    It's not that hard to condemn white supremacists Mu, and this is not the first time Trump has failed to do so.
  25. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 6
    He absolutely is supposed to condemn a political spectrum when it is horrible, such as the alt-right. This is the same guy who complains about socialism all the time. Now you're going to sit there and say he shouldn't condemn the alt-right? Unbelievable.