Senate Mormonism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darkside_Spirit, Jan 12, 2002.

  1. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    Since I don't know very much about it, could someone please explain the basic principles of Mormonism, especially regarding the afterlife and the seven different heavens.

    Also, is Mormonism best regarded as a Christian denomination or as a completely separate religion? What are its main differences from other forms of Christianity?
  2. IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2001
    star 4
    Well... I can't tell you what the Mormons think, but generally Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christians.
  3. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    As a Mormon, I think I am qualified to answer this.

    First of all, the offical name is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We basicly belive that after Christ died he visted people in America, and the record of this is The Book of Mormon. There is already a thread I and others have explained why we are Christians, but basicly we belive in Christ's atonement and others belive we are not Christian because we do not belive in the concept of the trinity. This concept was not created until 300 years after Christ's death by the Creeds.

    We belive that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ visited a boy in upstate New York after he had prayed about which church is true. They told him that no church was, and that he must reestablish it. This boy was Joseph Smith.

    As for the afterlife, we belive that first one goes to either spirt paradise or prison, where everyone waits untill the finial Judgement Day. Then you go to either the Celestial, telestial, or terestrial kindoms.

    Greedo, you can fill in the rest because I am lazy and don't want to write anymore. ;)


    Edit: I consider the Catholic Church a very succesfull cult. We are part of Christ's church because he is the one that founded it. I belive some high ranking Catholic church offical once said that either the Mormons are right, because Christ's church did fall away, or the Catholics are right because it didn't. Please accept this fact.
    JangoMike likes this.
  4. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks for that initial definition, which is especially interesting since you actually are a mormon. I await more detail with baited breath.
  5. InnocentIII Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 1
    Mormonism is regarded as a cult by Christians. Mormons, however, still insist that they are actually Christians.

    This is an issue that apparently will not be resolved. This is because: 1. Mormons do not regard Christians as part of Christ's Church because they believe that His Church fell not long after His death and 2. Mormons do not fit the Creeds of the Church, thus, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant Christians do not regard them as Christians, and vice versa... It's sort of a mess...
  6. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I am a Protestant Christian and I consider anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is his or her Lord and Savior to be a Christian. Therefore, Mormons certainly are Christians.

    Question for you, Coolguy: Why the prohibition on coffee? I understand the prohibition on alcohol, because alcohol ruins lives more than any illegal drug does, but why coffee?
  7. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    As some what of a Mormon (I don't know much of the details, but am always learning) I think I can answer that.

    Although I do not know where it comes from, I believe in the "Words of Wisdom" which details things men & women should & should not do or consume. Alcohol and tobacco were two of them, which is kind of weird since we have only learned of the harms of Tobacco in the last 50 years, and I think the Words of Wisdom are omuch older than that. Also expressed is hot drinks and drinks containing caffene (I think). That rules out Coffee, Tea, and Soda.


    Now, I hope some intelligent LDS person comes along and fixes any mistakes I've made in this post.
  8. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Mormon's like to stay healthy. And I don't believe caffeine is very healthy for you.

    I find Mormons to be nice people who are very disciplined and friendly. But I find their theology to be... I won't continue.

    So, Coolguy, when do you become an Elder? Or are you already one?

    I found out something interesting about you, too.

    The Book of Mormon says that there is one God and he is unchanging.

    Mormon 9:9-11 and Alma 11:26-31

    And the war in heaven, there were many Gods present.

    Abraham 3:23-28 & Talmage, Jesus the Christ, pp 15-16

    Also, there can be more Gods, you can become a God with millions of wives,

    Articles of Faith by James Talmage, pg. 430

    Please check those references.

    I still find them to be nice people.
  9. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    I am not a Elder yet, I am just a Priest.
    I just had a Sunday School lesson on the nature of God, and when it says there is one God, it means they are one is purpose. There is only one God for us. I must admit I haven't learned everything on this, but I bet GreedoCMZ has a better anwser.

    The ban on Coffee is part of the Word of Wisdom that was given as revelation in 1833. It councils against the drinking of Hot Drinks.
  10. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Oh, so you're allowed to drink cold coffee?

    Hmm.

    Remember the incident with the blacks?

    It said their skin would become white, by that it meant pure. Hmm, I'm confused.
  11. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
  12. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    Coolguy, you actually have the nerve to call Catholicism a cult? LMAO!!!
  13. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Umm, it seems Coolguy did a decent job of answering the questions except that I don't know that I would call the Catholic Church a cult. Sometimes any religion a person is devoted to is considered by others to be a cult.

    As far as the concept of there being more than one heaven goes the short answer is we believe that there are three: the celestial (the highest, the glory of the sun), the terrestrial (right in the middle, the glory of the moon), and the telestial (the lowest, the glory of the stars, reserved for murderers and the like). Often on the boards here I have seen people get in dilemmas wondering if someone would go to hell if they just barely missed making it into heaven. Mormons, that is to say, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, believe that basically everyone is going to heaven but that they will go to the degree of heaven they will feel most comfortable with according to the type of life they have lived here.

    As far as Mormons being Christians go, yes, we have discussed this in another thread. Jesus Christ is at the center of our religion and we study The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ as a companion to the Bible. Personally, I read from each one every day. This is one of my favorite verses from the Book of Mormon:

    And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.


    I have The Articles of Faith by James E. Talmage on CD-ROM and I did a search on "wives" but your reference to having "millions of wives" did not come up. So I went to page 430 and it does not talk about it there either.

    As far as the number of Gods goes, yes, we have one God our Heavenly Father who is an exalted man and is God above all. We believe there are other exalted people (women as well as men), such as God the Son (Jesus Christ) and Michael who it is mentioned in the book of Revelation (the full name is The Revelation of St. John the Divine) as leading the war in Heaven against the devil and his angels. We believe that as Christ was exalted and received all that his Father hath following his resurrection so may we through faithfulness. It is much the same as parents on earth here having their own children who later become parents themselves.

    I'll end my post here with a paragraph that I did find on page 430 of The Articles of Faith. It is so good maybe I should have just copied and pasted it in and not written anything else myself:

    The Comprehensiveness of Our Faith must appeal to every earnest investigator of the principles taught by the Church, and still more to the unprejudiced observer of the results as manifested in the course of life characteristic of the Latter-day Saints. Within the pale of the Church there is a place for all truth -- for everything that is praiseworthy, virtuous, lovely, or of good report. The liberality with which the Church regards other religious denominations; the earnestness of its teaching that God is no respecter of persons, but that He will judge all men according to their deeds; the breadth and depth of its precepts concerning the state of immortality, and the gradations of eternal glory awaiting the honest in heart of all nations, kindred, and churches, civilized and heathen, enlightened and benighted, have already been set forth. We have seen further that the belief of this people carries them forward, even beyond the bounds of knowledge thus far revealed, and teaches them to look with unwavering confidence for other revelation, truths yet to be added, glories grander than have yet been made known, eternities of powers, dominions, and progress, beyond the mind of man to conceive or the soul to contain. We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is
  14. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    To clarify what I said, I think that my Church isn't any more of a cult than the Catholics or any other mainstream religion. My cite that we have a "Charismatic leader", but the argument that the pope is not charismatic and our prophet is, is kind of silly. I don't think population should have anything to do with it either. I am going to stop rambling now.
  15. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    Interesting that not only are anakin_girl and AnakinsGirl parodies of each other, they're helpful enough to have the same user icon. And they are both Christian (although one is Catholic and one Protestant). I shall have to be careful :)

    GreedoCMZ, that's a very interesting description of Mormon belief, although it is very different to other forms of Christianity (not to say that makes it bad, just to say that I can see how Mormonism could be regarded as a cult by Christians of other denominations). I have a few questions:

    - Where do the first and second resurrections come in?

    - Are all Mormons in agreement about the afterlife or are there many different theories and interpretations (as with "mainstream" Christianity)?

    - Is judgement solely by deeds or is there an element of faith as well?

    - Which takes "precedence", the Bible or the Book of Mormon? Also, do you literally believe the Revelation of St. John?
  16. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Where do the first and second resurrections come in?

    Well, basically the first resurrection is at the beginning of the Millenium. The second resurrection would be at the end of the Millenium. We believe that everyone will be resurrected regardless of their works and that then everyone will be judged according to their works.

    Are all Mormons in agreement about the afterlife or are there many different theories and interpretations (as with "mainstream" Christianity)?

    Mostly in agreement. Of course, we don't know everything about the afterlife yet, but there are not major factions within the Church promoting their interpretation over another's.

    Is judgement solely by deeds or is there an element of faith as well?

    Yeah, faith comes into play but there is a lot of allowance for people who may never have had a chance to hear the gospel. We believe everyone has a conscience and knows basic right from wrong.

    Which takes "precedence", the Bible or the Book of Mormon?

    Hard to answer that. We do believe things have been lost from the Bible that were once there and some changes have been made either purposely or inadvertently. The Book of Mormon, however, comes to us more directly from one divinely aided translation into English and therefore can teach many principles in a clearer way. But when considering the pure teachings of each as penned by the original writers they both teach the same gospel.

    Also, do you literally believe the Revelation of St. John?

    Yes, we believe that there was literally an apostle John who, while banished to the Isle of Patmos, had a grand, almost all-encompassing vision that touched a little bit on things before his time, a little bit on events of his time, and a great deal on things to come. Of course, many things in it are symbolic and I don't claim to know the interpretation of all the peculiar imagery. They do, however, point to plain realities and the main thrust of the book is to point out that good eventually wins over evil.
  17. Jorus_Kando Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
  18. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Sorry this link was a bummer as pointed out by my friend here. I got on a different search engine and found different links that my be more interesting anyway :)

  19. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    For a start, those reason's aren't ten (#3 is missed out).

    1. "Christian" means follower of Christ. You don't have to literally believe everything in the Bible in order to be Christian. Considering the contradictions in the Bible, it's logically impossible to believe absolutely all of it.

    2. So? That says absolutely nothing.*

    4. So? That says absolutely nothing.*

    5. So? That says absolutely nothing.*

    *of relevance to the question, that is.

    6. Hmmmm. No comment. Perhaps Greedo will answer that one.

    7. No comment again.

    8. Totally irrelevant!

    9. Not really relevant.

    10. Can't really comment on that, but some would find justification by works more appealing than others.

    Most of those reasons are a farce, and there isn't even a reason #3!
  20. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    True. I'll edit out that link. I just typed in cults in a search engine and then went to a site on mormonism and why some consider it to be a cult. I'll find a different one.

    Be right back.

    Here's someone with a greivance

    This was an interesting look into docterine

    This has an interesting breakdown of what the bible says and what mormons believe <--This is by far the best link I've found yet. It lists the beliefs of mormons side by side with those of Christians. There are some differences and a few outright contradicitions to the bible.

    Another interesting breakdown of beliefs
  21. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    It would be better if you left that link in, just so that somebody else can respond to the points I passed by.

    I'll have a peek at the rest.
  22. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Actually, it was a Mormon who said that either the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church is right. If I'm not mistaken it was Orson Pratt who said it, or someone along those lines. A few people come to mind, though.
  23. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    It would be better if you left that link in, just so that somebody else can respond to the points I passed by.

    I'll have a peek at the rest.


    The third link I posted has all of the same arguments I believe.
  24. PreacherBoy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1998
    star 5
    Some interesting reading about the inconsistancies and outright trauma caused by the "Church" of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: ExMormom.org. I find the parts where they change their Bible around, because someone found some statistical error, quite interesting.
  25. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    I think it is interesting that entire groups of people have formed and published liturature simply 'disprove' my religion. These fanatics who have no other purpose in life than to try and destroy a relgion they don't agree with are idiots. Granted, many of them are angry ex-members that have some personal axe to grind. They stand outside any major Mormon event spreading liturature. Did you know that in the bible belt many Babtist "Church" pastors show anti-mormon videos in order for them to be scared away from my Church? Sure, you may think this is a great thing, but my family has had friends that once they were shown this video they refused to even talk to us again. Why is this sort of bigotry allowed in this country? When was the last time you saw a anti-sematic or anti-catholic video in your church(or other meeting place)? Just because we are not political activists we put up with a lot of crap. We have about the same amount of people in this country as the Jews. Do you think that we have a piece of that kind of power? I think not. There are a few reasons for this. First, most Mormons are a unimportant voting block in any state except Utah. Presidential candidates don't visit Utah because it is a virtualy assured Republican win. The second reason is that the church does not take a party position or support a candidate on anything. Even though the church is 80% republican, they don't want to alienate the other 20%.
    The ex-catholic site is still underconstrucion BTW.