Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darkside_Spirit, Jan 12, 2002.
I prefer more objective sources myeslf.
Darn, I always come to these "Mormon" debates too late. As coolguy has mentioned we prefer to be called Latter Day Saints.
about the Bible over the Book Of Mormon question. One is generally not considered more important than the other. The Book of Mormon may say one thing the Bible does not but the Bible may say something that the Book of Mormon does not. Thus they work hand in hand and may provide a better understanding of what us getting stuck on Earth is all about.
I think it is interesting that entire groups of people have formed and published liturature simply 'disprove' my religion.
join the club. i'm catholic and get lots of anti-catholic sentiments, usually from people who have no idea what they're talking about (i.e. all catholics are going to hell because they worship mary).
at one point i heard something about a mormon belief that there are different levels of heaven, and if you reach the top one you get your own planet to populate or something like that? is there anything like that in the mormon religion? or is my friend completely whacked? (she'd just spent 3 weeks of her summer with 7 mormons who were constantly attacking her catholic beliefs after spending 3 years at utah state so it's quite possible she exaggerated out of frustration)
Yes, people attempt to disprove religions all the time; frankly, I appreciate it. Being a very religious person, I DO appreciate any honest attempt to find the truth. (Now, not all attempts are honest; very few are.)
The people on exmormon.org put together an extremely compelling case, which I frankly find absolutely devastating of the entire basis for Mormonism.
I'd be interested to see a Mormon's response.
The link is posted again here: [link=http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm]Thinking of joining Mormonism?[/link]
"They're trying to disprove my religion" is not a good answer. I need to be convinced that their arguments are wrong.
I just looked throught that, and the first points are basicly true. I do not know about many of the points they brought up, but NONE of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon EVER said it didn't happen. They left the Church, and some of them even came back near the end of their lives, but none of them ever withdrew what they said.
If you have an honest question about it you can bring it up. But I'm personally not going to jump through hoops trying to "prove" something to people who go, "Look, we found a website that disproves your Church. So there!" There are websites and books that answer all these concerns. Even better, you can have them answered yourself. Why don't you go to a Mormon woman and say, "I surfed into a website that says Mormons think woman are inferior to men and that they need to get beat into submission by their husbands. Do you find that to be the case?"
But if you want to you can choose to hide behind slanted sources.
I read through some of that stuff at exmormons.org and I have to say these people are pretty weak-spirited if they give anyone or any organization to "traumatize" their life so badly. They're like, "Now that I left the Church I feel free to drink beer." Woo hoo! I know people in the Church who drink beer and they don't feel like the Church is traumatizing them because they don't give someone else that much power over them.
"Why is this sort of bigotry allowed in this country?"
It's called freedom of speech and it is one of the corner stones of our personal liberties. Granted there are many groups who spread hate, but the freedom to say what you want based on nothing or based on fact is just a part of what this country is about!
Edit: I would like to see a mormons response to some of the contradictions that the BOM has with the bible. There is a pretty compelling list [link=http://invitation.to/dance/cults-mormon-documents.htm]here.[/link]
I've got some friends who are mormon and granted we don't talk about religion much, I was suprised to see so many biblical contradictions in the BOM as listed above.
MaidenLumpé, I briefly answered your question in an earlier post of mine in this thread. A very nutshell version of our belief regarding the topic of your question is, "As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may become." I'm also sorry to hear that your friend was treated the way she was.
And Wylding, I just learned from someone else's signature that "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still ******ed." There are answers to all the seeming contradictions in that page you gave the link to. I understand your concern but if it is merely, "Look, this page is against your Church, what do you have to say?" then it is really not your own personal question. When that is the situation then it will have little meaning for me to answer everything there because it will still not be a personal issue for you. I have answered the questions in this and other threads that people have brought up about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have encountered, read, perused, studied anti-Mormon materials for about thirteen years or more now and they have no new arguments and the Internet didn't introduce any new ones either. There are others in my church who are very into responding to every conceivable anti-Mormon argument and I have read all that as well. I got tired of it when I realized that, while it was basically good, it ironically had very little power to influence people one way or the other if they were pre-determined to not be convinced.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still ******ed.
Ok, I stopped reading after I read this little gem.
Going to school in Independence MO (the area Joesph Smith thought to be the center place for the church) I knew alot of LDS members and all of them were stand up guys. I have always been sick with the ferocity, innacuracy and ignorance that other Christians hold against the LDS and communities of christ (formaly RLDS it's a long story). While I don't subscribe to their doctrine I would not classify them as a cult nor would they not be considered Christian. After all to be a Christian all you have to believe is that Christ was the son of God and that he died for our sins. I'm curious just what some pastors are so afraid of that they would slander a group and preach hatred and lies. Why would someone in the right, steal and kill innocent unarmed people? What is so dangerous that would cause "Christians" to lie, kill and steal. I've seen it all my life and I just wonder how godly a person is that dedicates their life to promoting ignorance and hatred.
I can say the same thing for a lot of my Mormon friends in Arizona, particularly two best friends. They're people of the best kind and always have been.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still ******ed.
I was afraid I was about to make myself ******ed, and I mean the kind of ******ation one brings upon themselves, not the type (such as Down's syndrome) some people might be born with.
Even with the potentially heated nature of the discussion I was quietly glad to see that it had not descended into an argument. Even those on the con side were not as accusatory and vituperative as they could be and I just wanted to make sure things stayed on the discussion side.
What part of Scripture do you base the 3 heavens thing on, and why are you able to say that every human being may become a god?
Greedo sort of already brought up why the Church doesn't give a explanation for each of those things. The reason is that there will always be those people who are upset about something, and will always find fault with something. There are those Mormons apologists who can disprove this or that, and seeing how you can find sites against the Church, it shouldn't be that hard to find answers to your questions.
That's a major cop-out, in my view. If something doesn't seem to make sense, are people supposed to not say anything about it and accept it as is?
I think that Coolguy was saying that if you can find something against a Church you can also find something for it. He's saying "there's more than one source to learn from," not "don't learn anything." I have been answering all the questions that have been brought up here in this thread.
What part of Scripture do you base the 3 heavens thing on?
Much of the information comes from modern revelation but in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 we read:
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
Why are you able to say that every human being may become a god?
Similar answer here as well. Much of it comes from modern revelation but many verses in the Old and New Testaments also touch on it. I explained this more in another thread. Lemme go see if I can get the link.
Okay, I'm back. This is distilled from one of my posts in the "What is your denomination?" thread, if you want to read the whole thing.
As far as people being able to become gods, how is that un-Christian? Read Psalms 82:6. You may say it is only speaking figuratively but if you do then I will point out instances where any other Christian denomination takes verses of the Bible figuratively. For instance, if you believe in the Trinity then you can only believe in Acts 7:56 in a figurative sense. Then read the New Testament followup to Psalms 82:6. It's in John 10:34. And in the verse before that, "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." The Jews were mad at Jesus for saying that a man could become a God. There are other such verses. Try Acts 17:29; Romans 8:17; Galatians 4:7; 1 John 3:2; Revelation 3:21, etc.
Thanks for the explaination. I disagree sightly, but we won't go into that here.
Good use of the scripture mastery Greedo, I hope you didn't have to look that up.
Sometimes I feel like an honorary Mormon, because I know much of the terminology (and what goes into it). Growing up with Mormons as your friend (including your two best friends) will do that to you. I'm Catholic, for the record, but we've discussed these things many a time.
I have questions.
There is a website which provides some "answers."
Those "answers" make me think, "Oh, gee, the Mormon faith is full of holes." Their founder was a con-man, their "Ancient Egyptian" plates were neither ancient nor Egyptian, their "secret societies" are not only unoriginal but do some very evil things, and the entire churh as a whole is corrupt.
Now, I am not going to accept those arguments blindly.
I want to see if there's a counterargument.
Now, is there or is there not one?
Of course there is. However, it seems that the majority of objective sources (both religious and otherwise) find holes in Mormon theology that can't really be refuted.
Oh, and it seems to me like the Bible references are taken quite out of context. The Psalm reference:
PS 82:6 "I said, `You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
PS 82:7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."
That doesn't say people can become Gods! Just the opposite! The passage is quite clearly being sarcastic.
For example, if I were to say to a kid who thought himself a genius,
"Yea, genius, you're bright. I'm gonna watch you flunk a math test."
That would NOT indicate that I thought he was a genius, only that I was making fun of him.
It's pretty clear that the Psalmist is making fun of people who think they're "gods".
He was telling them they were not living up to their potential. And your argument doesn't explain why Jesus would quote it and why the Pharisees would get mad at him for "making himself God."
"Ancient Egyptian plates: they weren't ancient and they weren't Egyptian. Discuss amongst yourselves." All you are doing is alleging w/o evidence (whether or not the evidence is good evidence is not the issue; you are making nothing more than a bare allegation). I can do the same. Anyone can. The plates which the Book of Mormon were translated from are not claimed to be Egyptian but to have been written in reformed Egyptian. Since no one now really knows reformed Egyptian and we don't even have the plates anymore we cannot tell if it truly was reformed Egyptian. You will have to ask yourself if God has the power to allow there to be an ancient language that no one in modern times knows of or understands. I will freely admit that personally I do not have the power to convince you that he does. But if it was proved scientifically, rationally, and logically beyond all reasonable doubt that it was reformed Egyptian and that Joseph Smith truly translated it into English would that then motivate you to be baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
The Church as a whole is corrupt? Okay, you win. I've never seen such a compelling argument before. I don't know how to counter it except in exactly the same way. "The Church as a whole is not corrupt." But I will add my little bit and admit that the members are not perfect. I am not perfect. Even though Christ said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect," I will admit that I'm not.
I wish certain Christians would apply such skepticism towards their own version of Christianity as they do to Mormonism. You guys are great skeptics when it doesn't jive with your ideology.