Senate Mormonism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darkside_Spirit, Jan 12, 2002.

  1. SystemofADown Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Pleasure is bad! You must expiriance no pleasure at all! Oh wait, That is ALL Christian religion principles.....
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    No, that is simply not true at all (to the comment before this one).
  3. SystemofADown Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2002
    It is too true. No sex, No alchohol, No cigarettes, No porn, No nothing.
  4. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Rumor has it that sex is okay within marraige, according to Christianity, and that it might even be encouraged.

    As for the others, they might be considered self-destructive by some and thus discouraged for a variety of reasons.

  5. StormKnight Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 2
    *sighs*

    Those weren't arguments I was presenting, they were summaries of the webpage I'd referenced above. What I said was,

    "Hey, here's a link.

    It says the following.

    Anyone care to offer a counterargument?"

    My "the following" were not arguments; they were simply summaries of the various points involved in the above link. Since some of us seem to be averse to clicking links, here's the copied text:

    * * * * * *

    In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

    Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.

    The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."

    The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention any of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce even a shred of pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.

    Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.

    The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.

    Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confe
  6. GreedoCMZ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    No sex Yes, sex within marriage is fine and encouraged.

    No alcohol, Do you really like what alcohol does to you?

    No cigarettes Do you really like what cigarettes do to you?

    No porn Do you like having an imaginary relationship with a woman you will never have a real relationship with? Do you want your daughter or future daughter to be a porn star? Or is that just for someone else's kid?


    StormKnight: If your questions were answered would you be baptized a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

    Joseph Smith did help someone try to find money who heard about some Spanish treasure buried somewhere. It was a fairly common thing at the time, but when he saw that they were getting nowhere he told his "boss" to just give it up. It seems odd to me that that is held against him when the state of California was virtually settled by thousands of people with the hope of digging up gold. And just about the whole society nowadays is hoping to get rich by winning the lottery, getting something for nothing. Why hold it against a guy who tried to dig for it instead of trying to pick the lucky numbers?

    I don't have any problem with Joseph Smith joining the Methodist church. By the rules of the Mormon church now I could join the Methodist church (or Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.) with no disciplinary action taken. John Wesley, the first "Methodist" recognized that Christ's true church was no longer on the earth and said the only thing to do at that time was to methodically study the scriptures until God shall send again new prophets and apostles. And in his personal history, Joseph Smith tells which members of his family were members of which church. There is no coverup going on here.

    Yes, plural marriage was withdrawn, largely under the intense pressure of the government, many of whose officers felt it was better to have one wife and many mistresses. One of the apostles back then was asked by a government officer how many wives he had. The apostle said, "I will tell you how many wives I have if you will tell me how many mistresses you have," but the man refused to answer as to how many mistresses he had. Of course, one is not obliged to financially support a mistress. And nowadays, it is very common for rappers to have a whole slew of "ho's." I was watching the Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Snoop Dogg was telling how he's had four children by two or three girlfriends. I read in the paper of another rapper (there are so many) and it was telling the names of his three current girlfriends and no one blinks an eye. But of course it would be bad to be married to them.

    The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). So eleven others claim to have seen them.

    No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. Your statement almost admits their existence. But even if you doubt their existence that is a personal question for you to ask yourself: "Can God choose to show them only to twelve people and no more?" We don't even have the testimonies of twelve people who claim to have seen the original records of the Bible.
  7. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    Good job Greedo.

    the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
    I don't know when it was called by this, but I know it as the law of consecration. This was dropped because of the unfaithfulness of the people. In the future this doctorine will be instated when the members of the Church are ready. In the mean while, we are commanded to give a tithe of 10%, and to be worth of entering the temple you must be willing to do this.
  8. DarthLothi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2001
    star 4
    Theological arguments aside (I've never really enjoyed them anyway - to each his own), I did find some things at exmormon.org that disturbed me.

    I realize that many of the stories told at the site are by disgruntled former Mormons who may have axes to grind. But the recurrent themes that seemed to pop up were depression and a poor sense of self-worth among the women, and the refusal of the church hierarchy to help members deal with their problems outside the context of the LDS church and its teachings.

    My understanding is that all LDS men can hold the priesthood by virtue of their gender, not through any formal schooling or training. And then these men are expected to act in the same capacity as clergymen of other faiths, who have years of formal education and training in things such as counselling. I can see them counselling unhappy couples in the spiritual aspects of their lives, but exhorting a couple to "pray harder and your problems will be resolved" does not help them deal with whatever emotional or psychological issues they have. The stories also reflected a reluctance on the part of the church to allow couples to seek help outside LDS or the LDS-SS.
  9. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I would note that those in the priesthood have regular jobs and occupations outside the Church, in addition to their role as a priest.
  10. GreedoCMZ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    But the recurrent themes that seemed to pop up were depression and a poor sense of self-worth among the women.

    I believe these concerns are getting more addressed over time. Many of them occur and can be engendered by a misunderstanding of the doctrine. There are scriptural commands to be perfect but Church leaders increasingly emphasize that progressing one step at a time is all that is asked and that no one is realistically expected to attain perfection in this life. These teachings of moderation and not wearing yourself out have always been around but are definitely getting more emphasis now.

    . . . and the refusal of the church hierarchy to help members deal with their problems outside the context of the LDS church and its teachings.

    I think this is loosening up somewhat too. Much of it stems from the early persecution of the Church when they were hounded and driven from one place to the next and became distrustful of anything not "them." Over time, and as non-Mormons moved to Utah and as Mormons moved away from Utah and outright physical persecution subsided the Church began to see it does not have to be "us" against "them."

    My understanding is that all LDS men can hold the priesthood by virtue of their gender, not through any formal schooling or training.

    Yes, it is worthy males who receive the priesthood. But both men and women share the blessings of the priesthood equally and both may have positions of authority in the Church. Holding the priesthood is a call to service, something which seems to come more naturally to women then to men. I will tell you that at a "Mormon" meeting I attended last night it was presided over by a girl (and one who was younger than me at that) and she I asked if I could give the prayer at the beginning and I deferred to her authority. I don't know if that seems like a good example or a trivial example; it is just the first example that came to mind.

    And then these men are expected to act in the same capacity as clergymen of other faiths, who have years of formal education and training in things such as counselling.

    It is a lay clergy but the lay clergy is increasingly learning to discern when a person or couple's problem may require professional counseling. I have a degree in Psychology myself and took several classes in counseling and therapy and understand that the concepts learned there are not always readily available to the lay clergy of the Church.

    I can see them counselling unhappy couples in the spiritual aspects of their lives, but exhorting a couple to "pray harder and your problems will be resolved" does not help them deal with whatever emotional or psychological issues they have.

    That's correct. Prayer is a great gift but is not always the end-all and be-all.

    The stories also reflected a reluctance on the part of the church to allow couples to seek help outside LDS or the LDS-SS.

    I guess my response here would be about the same as my response to the second point above.
  11. budaki Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 4
    I am ammused by the ammount of time and energy people devote to hating a group.


    As for archeological evidence of the American Civilizations mentioned in the BOM, well i did a report on that, and i found so much that it suprised me.

    There is so much evidence it is hard to believe why people would not realize it. I can post some highlights of my report if you wish, but some of the points covered are:

    Linguistics
    Agriculure
    Culture
    ect, the list goes on and on.

    And i read that "Thinking of Joining Mormonism" or whatever and they were talking about all the stuff you would have to give up, and they make it sound like those things were good in the first place.

    Booze, Sex, ect, all those things have become tolerated by a public with ever decreasing standards.

    No one said evil wasn't attractive.
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    The Smithsonian Institute and other highly respected authorities have all pretty much said the same thing: The civilization described in the Book of Mormon has no evidence in archeology.

    "Archeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past and the society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon." Statement by the National Geographic Society

    "Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book [of Mormon]."
    "The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central and northeastern Asia."
    "...none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492."
    "Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared...None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars."

    Smithsonian Institute, 1996.



    So far as an objective analysis of Mormonism goes, try here:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds.htm

  13. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the ONLY religious organization on the planet that has the authority from God to use the power of God (the Priesthood) on Earth. What does this mean? It means 1) All churches who claim to have the power to heal or make miricles are false, & 2) Even a member of the lowest order of Priesthood (Deacon) has more heavenly power than any Catholic, Protistan(sp?), Buddist, Hindu or any other religious leader. This includes the Pope!

    The LDS Church is also the only church with a living prophet who can and does speak with God.
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    /propaganda.

    Would you like to say anything that actually has some substance?
  15. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
  16. PowerfulJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2000
    star 4
    The thing I do not get is the entire 3 heavens thing. Basing on that, you can get into different degrees of heaven (sorta like Catholics believe in heaven, purgatory, and hell.) As a Lutheran I believe that our actions can do NOTHING. There is one heaven and one hell. If our actions justified anything would would be the purpose of Jesus in the first place. You get into heaven if you believe that Jesus came, led the perfect life we could not, took our sins upon him, and died on the cross, and worked as our substitute. You're going to hell if you do not believe in any of that. Period, there are no lupolls.

    NOTE: I do not mean any disrespect to anyone but that's simply just what I believe. And it's justified in scripture.
  17. Jorus_Kando Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know who is more laughable: MoronDude or SystemofADown. All I gotta say is: Don't feed the trolls, people.
  18. GreedoCMZ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    I won't mention any names; I'll just say that I don't agree with the dogmatic, heavy-handed approach taken by some here.
  19. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    If you have scriptural proof, PPOR. How can you explain this scripture if you have to do nothing?
    James 2

    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    I just don't understand how some mudering person can belive in Christ and still go to heaven.


    As for that "propeganda", while that may be true from the Church's prospective, you can use that as a argument.
  20. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Our works are what testify to our faith.


    "18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."


    This verse is saying that the man will show him his faith by his works.
  21. Jorus_Kando Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    Excellent posts, coolguy and JM :)

    I've always been puzzled by believers who think just believing is enough, and are quick to condemn those who don't.
  22. padawan lunetta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 6
    Well I've read through this thread, and I have to say that I rarely participate in these religous "discussions" frankly because I think it does little or no good. No one is going to be converted to mormonism, and the mormons certainly won't be running off to another religion because of opinions and mad ravings of ex-members.

    I'm not hear to bash any other religions because I have been taught to respect all beliefs. I am willing to bet that you will *never* see a thread started by a mormon that is created simply to bash and try to discredit the catholic, baptist, lutheran or whatever Church.

    And there have been many links put up linking to anti-mormon sites, (created by ex-mormons...interesting)

    If you are actually interested in learning more about the mormon church, I'd suggest going here: LDS.org
  23. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Gee, I wonder what I'll find there.

    Try www.religioustolerance.org.

    A bit more objective.
  24. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Jorus, I know what you mean. I know a few people that think you can say a simle prayer, "believe" in God, and it will make you saved. They think once you do that you can do whatever you want.


    But that verse says that if you aren't living a moral life, doing good works, you probably aren't truly saved. Because even Satan believes, and he certainly won't be in Heaven. But the works themselves aren't what save you, it's the faith. The works simply testify to the faith you have.
  25. PowerfulJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2000
    star 4
    No, that verse just shows if you are doing those things, you probably don't have faith in the first place. That's all it shows. As scripture says, "Not by my works, but by YOUR(GOD'S) works alone."