Senate Mormonism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darkside_Spirit, Jan 12, 2002.

  1. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    That was the story I was talking about, I just heard it at church.
  2. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    And if you are a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you can join the Catholic Church without fear of any disciplinary action.
  3. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    I sent a letter to the bishop, and even had a meeting with him. Hes a friend of the family. He said he sent the forms in, but the church records department never acted on it.

    BTW, prayer is part of how I learned that the mormon church isn't true. I prayed and God told me it was wrong. I also did alot of research, because I believe faith and logic must go hand in hand. I've never once regretted my decision or thought for a moment that I might be wrong.
  4. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    I hope no one told you you shouldn't research anything. The church isn't saying to discard logic. Certainly no more than the Catholic Church is. If you believe in the Catholic Church you still have to believe in things that aren't immediately apparent to your five senses. There's nothing more inherently logical about the Catholic Church than the Mormon Church. With both you have to believe in supernatural occurences that any atheist could come along and say are just not logical to believe in. You could say that the Catholic Church has an unbroken chain of priesthood authority and that that is more logical than the Mormons' claim to a restored priesthood but you would still have to believe that there was ever any God or Jesus Christ or divine priesthood to begin with. You could say that there's mean people in the Mormon Church but I went on a 'Mormon' mission to Ireland and had Catholics stone me (literally) on my first day there and later on I was assaulted with water balloons, eggs, expectorant, glass bottles, etc. by Catholics. Often when talking with Catholic people at their doors they would be very proud and "holier-than-thou" and say something like, "Why don't you go talk with my priest. He'll teach you a thing or two." Then we'd go to the priest's house and talk with him and he'd be very nice and genuine and we'd have a good religious discussion void of any religious friction, but the truthfulness of the Catholic Church wasn't somehow flip-flopping with the meanness or the niceness of the Catholics I encountered. Unfortunately, LittleLadyVader, it appears that your whole view of the Church has been tainted by those who are not living the teachings of the Church and it affected everything from that point on.
  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Greedo, not to get petty, but there are Mormons who do the same to outsiders, particularly in Utah, where LDS dominance is nearly supreme. Granted, that's not representative of the faith, but just keep that in mind.
  6. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    Actually, I didn't have any problems with mormons until after I left "the church", so peoples behavior didn't effect my leaving. And I didn't say that logic is the only thing. Logic and faith are equal. I see very little logic in mormonism and I have never had any faith in it.

    When I was younger I tried to believe, but I couldn't. I pretended so that my family and friends wouldn't be mad at me. I finally got enough courage to find out for myself if it was true or not, so I read the BOM, POGP, and D&C. I studied the beliefs in other church approved books, also. I was shocked and very sad when I read what I consider badly written nonsense that is supposively scripture. I was very suprised and offended by many of the stories and beliefs included in the books, which I had never been aware of( dark skin as punishment, God living on another planet, ect.) I became depressed and was in denial for a few months, but then I found the courage to live an honest life.

    I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, but I think most mormons need to look at the world realistically and see that not everyone is like them or wants to be like them.
  7. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    I answered your problems with the church in another thread and I never heard any more from you on them. I answered the dark skin thing. The Bible, which the Catholics believe in, teaches that Cain was punished with dark skin so it is hard to say its okay in the Bible but not in the Book of Mormon. I also explained that that was a temporary situation, even in the Book of Mormon. Samuel the Lamanite prophet (Lamanites being the "dark-skinned" people) was sent by the Lord sixteen years before the birth of Christ to condemn the Nephites (the "fair-skinned" people) of their unrighteousness. In the most recent general Conference of the Church in October 2001 one of the leaders rebuked the North American people for their disobedience and told about how the people were much more obedient and humble when he was on assignment in West Africa. One of the other leaders rebuked members who warranted the rebuke for not treating people of color with kindness and respect. The Book of Mormon itself says that God denieth none who come unto him, both black and white, male and female, bond and free, and all are alike unto God.
    Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught (in the politically incorrect 1950's), "Certainly the negroes as children of God are entitled to equality before the law and to be treated with all the dignity and respect of any member of the human race. Many of them certainly live according to higher standards of decency and right in this life than do some of their brothers of other races," and goes on to say that such will be taken into account in the day of judgment.
    If you want to hold discrimination against the Church when it's just not the case, you have to know that you are doing so deliberately and unjustifiedly.

    "While he was acting as mayor of the city, a colored man named Anthony was arrested for selling liquor on Sunday, contrary to law. He pleaded that the reason he had done so was that he might raise the money to purchase the freedom of a dear child held as a slave in a Southern State. He had been able to purchase the liberty of himself and his wife and now wished to bring his little child to their new home. Joseph Smith said, 'I am sorry, Anthony, but the law must be observed, and we will have to impose a fine.'
    The next day Brother Joseph presented Anthony with a fine horse, directing him to sell it, and use the money obtained for the purchase of the child." (Young Women's Journal, p.538)
    The horse was Joseph's prized white stallion, and was worth about $500; a huge sum at the time. With the money from the sale, Anthony was able to purchase his child out of slavery.


    In fact, in the 1920s, when the Klan had 5 million members in the United States (the equivalent of 15 million members today), the LDS Church was extremely anti-Klan, and the KKK considered the LDS Church to be its "greatest enemy".


    Brigham Young (2nd President of the Church) said in 1860: "Negroes should be treated like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes [animals]. For their abuse of that race, the whites shall be cursed, unless they repent." (Journal Discourses 10:111)


    President Spencer W. Kimball (12th President of the Church) said in 1972: "Racial prejudice is of the devil. Racial prejudice is of ignorance. There is not a place for it in the Gospel of Jesus Christ." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.237)


    If people in the Church act un-Christlike (yes, I know it happens) then they are going against the teachings of the Church and not following the example of the Savior and they need to repent. And I know that the Catholic kids who pelted me with rocks were not following the teachings of their church.

    I don't know what the issue is with God living on another planet unless you think he lives in a place that does not exist. Is it any weirder than believing that he lives on a cloud? Or that he is not really a person but an impersonal essence that fills the universe that we neither comprehend nor could ever comprehend? The problem
  8. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    I wasn't satisfied with your answers. They were just the same laughable mormon propaganda I hear everyday. No offense to you, I know how "the church" brainwashes people.

    The bible never says that the mark of cain is skin color. It never says what it actually is. Brigham Young brought slaves to utah. He also said that blacks won't have rights until they stop sinning and turn white. Try doing your research from an unbiased source, neither mormon or antimormon. Thats what I did.

    I do have a problem with your church believing God is an alien, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
  9. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    If there are quotes like the one you say there are (and, yes, I have a read from many different sources; it is typical anti-Mormon propaganda to tell me I haven't) then the problem lies in picking some and not the others. If there are quotes that appear negative it is wrong to say "Those are the ones I'll hide behind." I know of quotes just like the one you mentioned but when you know that there are quotes like the ones I mentioned then you have to realize that the situation is not as simplistic as you are making it seem.

    The KKK would never say anything supportive of blacks and the KKK absolutely hated the Mormon Church for not joining in their anti-Negro crusades. We're between a rock and a hard place if the KKK hates us and others accuse us of racism. It's only because of people insisting on holding something against us.

    There are many black members of the church and it is racist for you to say that they are all so simple-minded as to let themselves get brainwashed into joining the 'Mormon' church. On Sunday, I gave a ride home from church to a black guy from Ghana. He had just graduated from college. In fact, I went to the same college as him in Hawaii and I met him because I was a member of the African club and even designed their website (BYU-Hawaii African Club), and it hurts for me to be called racist and to have my African friends in the church be made to look like dummies who are held under the white man's power.

    Most Bible-believing people believe that todays blacks are descended from Cain and Ham and Egyptus. That's not a Mormon thing. And you are ignoring all the times I mentioned in the Book of Mormon where the "dark-skinned" people were the more righteous and favored ones. It appears that you never read the whole thing but relied on outside sources to tell you what it says. Don't worry, if you read the Book of Mormon all the way through it's not going to somehow force you to leave the Catholic Church.

    The whole brainwashing thing is way too simplistic. Anybody can accuse anybody else of being brainwashed and what can the other person do? Anything they say will appear to be a byproduct of their brainwashing. Such accusations only muddy the intellectual waters. You make it sound like Latter-day Saints go to church and get put in a hypnotic trance while someone chants, "We are not racist. We used to be but we are not anymore. You must make it look to outsiders like we are not racist. The quotes where we are against racism are only for the sake of outsiders. Also, we hate women and children and give you white men permission to beat them whenever you feel like it. We are more WASPy than WASPs. Now go and try to convert other people and confuse them by throwing in some stuff about Jesus Christ."

    LittleLadyVader, I admire your tenaciousness and I am trying to engage you in a discussion here, but it's mostly just accusations being slung at me.

  10. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I'm a bit puzzled about what the LDS teaches about the nature of God.

    The first thing is: Do you believe that God is a spirit or that he has a tangible physical body?

    Secondly, do you believe that the God who we read about in the beginning of Genesis who made the heavens and the earth, is the same God who rules the universe today? Or has another god taken over from him?

    It would be good to get these points cleared up.


  11. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    1. Do you believe that God is a spirit or that he has a tangible physical body?

    The short answer is: Yes. A longer although not completely comprehensive answer is that God is a 'spiritual' being, which means he has a physical, tangible body fused everlastingly with his spirit. This stands in contrast to us in our mortal state where we have a physical body activated by our eternal spirit but at death the spirit and the body are temporarily separated. Think about the time when Christ was resurrected. His apostles were in a room that they believed was secured but then all of a sudden Jesus appeared in the room. At first the apostles were scared because they thought they were seeing a ghost. But Jesus said, "Handle me and see. For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." But since he was a 'spiritual' being at that time he also had the powers of an unembodied spirit, namely and in this instance, being able to go through walls. God has the same type of body and we will too in the resurrection. And while his physical body can only inhabit one space at one time his influence is everywhere present in the universe. The Doctrine and Covenants talks about the light which proceeds forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity pf space.

    Secondly, do you believe that the God who we read about in the beginning of Genesis who made the heavens and the earth, is the same God who rules the universe today?

    That is simpler. Yes.
  12. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks for the answers Greedo. I've got a few more questions about it, but I'll post them after the weekend. Home time.

  13. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Monkey go home! Have a good weekend.
  14. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    It appears that you never read the whole thing but relied on outside sources to tell you what it says.


    I read the entire BOM, word for word. It was actually a very funny book, very silly and simplistic. ;)

    Most Bible-believing people believe that todays blacks are descended from Cain and Ham and Egyptus.

    I don't know a single christain, jew or islamic person that believes that the africans are descendants of cain. Possibly there are some that believe that, but none that I have ever spoken to, and I know a wide variety of people of many religions. I think its a racist teaching that God punishes by making people's skin dark, and IMO that is further proof that the BOM is a poduct of Joseph smith's pre-Civil war up bringing.

    Also scientific evidence says that the first humans were most likely black.

    I didn't say that all mormons are racist. I actually have never met an overtly racist mormon. Actually most mormons I know are nice people, but I believe "the church's" teachings are corrupt and evil. I don't think all black people that join are stupid, just like I don't think that all white people that join are. But I believe they join under false pretenses. 6 lessons doesn't give people enough information. I know because I had missionarys come before I left "the church." They also don't have the answers to all the difficult questions. Mormons and potencial converts are discouraged from finding things out from outside sourses, claiming everything that isn't from "the church" is evil "antimormon liturature" and the work of satan.

    I honestly can't understand how an intelligent person can belong to the mormon church, but I know several. Its sad for me to see so many people living with lies and unable to find out the truth because they are afraid of getting in trouble or being rejected.

    Do I hate mormons? Of course not. They are just people trying to live good lives to the best of thier ability and knowledge. I feel bad for them because they aren't allowed access to information so that they could make better decisions about thier spiritual lives. Do I hate the mormon church. Yes. I think it is an evil organization that was started by an evil, mildly intelligent con-artist.




  15. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    What other information do I need? I've seen the Godmakers videos and read many anti-Mormon books. I have even visited in person Gerald and Sandra Tanner at their house in Salt Lake City and they are the two most famous anti-Mormons ever. I went there with my friend who has been there several times. We told Sandra that we were up there for General Conference and she said that was nice and we had a nice discussion with her and she said she's not as antagonistic as she used to be. I've also went and visited with people who have broken off from the Church and started their own little polygamy groups. One of them told me I better read Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and I would find out some stuff I never knew. I told him I had already read it twice all the way through in addition to all the times I've thumbed through it (don't worry; I've read the Bible more). Is there something still being hidden from me? I'm not sure there's much of anything I haven't come across. I've been studying heavily from many sources for about thirteen years now but when the missionaries teach investigators the gospel they don't have thirteen years to go over everything, but as soon as someone joins there are an additional six lessons and they can learn as much as they want to on their own as well. Learning is a never-ending process.

    When you went to church before did you ever go to a class or a meeting where they told you to do something evil and corrupt? In 32 years of active church attendance I have not, but I have missed a Sunday here and a Sunday there. Did they ever tell you God is an alien but don't tell other people? (Yes, I know how the Godmakers movie twisted the concept of God being an actual man until it was barely recognizable and so distorted as to be quite laughable; the phraseology they used still cracks me up.) Do you have any quotes by Mormon leaders that say that? It seems that you take a harsher stance against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than just about any other Catholic I know. You are even more against it than the atheists here. It seems like others here have said, "I don't really believe their doctrinal concepts but they seem like good people," and they don't imply that there's some sort of underlying evil in the Church. I would venture to guess you are even more against it than the Pope. I don't know of anyone else seething with so much hatred against it.
  16. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    GreedoCMZ

    I stand by everything I've said, but I agree with you that I have too much hatred for the mormon church. It's really hard living in a theocracy, where I'm surrounded by people who take for granted that there are other religions. I know that most mormons are good people, but I do have a big problem with the beliefs. I'm trying to get rid of my anger and be more tolerant. So I won't post on this thread any longer because I get angry, and I really do want to get past this issue in my life. I'll never change your mind and you won't change mine, and I doubt either of us will convert anyone that reads this thread, even if we wanted to.

    Nice arguing with you. ;)
  17. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Come and visit California sometime, the land where the Mormons are well aware of the many Utah Mormons who are plastic, prideful, and insulated from the outside world. While I know for a fact that not all of them are like that (this is not a blanket Utah Mormon roast) I do know that there are some like the ones you know about. I've mentioned before that some will even look down on California Mormons as being, I don't know . . . not purebred Mormons or something, so I'm no stranger to what you're talking about.


    As far as the belief thing goes, it's not a matter of converting one another. I think I just have a small plea that you only see Latter-day Saint beliefs for what they are. Sure, you can say that God is an alien because he resides somewhere other than right on this planet, but to use terminology that the Church has never used and I'm pretty darn sure will never use only distorts and parodies the whole matter. Just approach the issue for what it is. Say something like, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that God has an actual physical body and that he actually lives in an actual place but that idea is hard for me to swallow."

    If you want me to be blatantly honest with you, when I was on my mission in Ireland sometimes us missionaries would talk about how the Catholics worship Mary. But later when a Catholic explained to me that the Catholic Church does not worship Mary I decided it would be illogical for me to ever say that again if a member of that church said otherwise. Anyways, Mary had the high and holy calling to be the mother of our Savior Jesus Christ and deserves unbounded respect from everyone. And I hope that even through my eagerness you feel like I have treated with you respect and a willingness to discuss things with you and to not just simply write you off as a hopeless cause.

    Also, is it just my browser or did your icon really change from Oola to Obi-Wan?
  18. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Hi, Greedo. Hope you had a good weekend.

    Just wanted to pick up where we left off last week. Got a couple of questions about the issue of God having a physical body:

    1] Given that you believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three different gods, do you believe that all three have different bodies?

    2] If God has a body, do you not believe that he is omnipresent (in all places at once)? Or do you understand omipresence in a different way?


    Thanks for your previous answers.


  19. Coolguy4522 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 4
    1. Yes.

    2. This is a harder one to understand, but from what I have heard I think that He has a actually body, but his presence is everywhere.

    I think that the Utah Mormons are generally less friendly to others and just insulated. I have seen both sides of the fence, but it isn't just Utah Mormons that are this way. I think that most Mormons need to work on being friendly and just nicer to others who are different(myself included). I think that for me it is easier to follow the church outside of Utah, because then I feel like a nonconformist. Here sometimes the church's presence can make you feel like you are being just another drone.

    What do you think of how the media has percived the Mormons due to the Olympics? I thought they might try and blot out mentioning it so as to not make this the "Mormon Olympics" which is pretty silly because it is only because of the Mormons that the Olympics are here. That and the bribing. ;)
  20. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Welcome back, GMM. My weekend was good except I asked out this one girl and found out she has a boyfriend. D'oh!

    1] Given that you believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three different gods, do you believe that all three have different bodies?

    Yes, they are three distinct individuals united by a common goal: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man?s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22)


    2] If God has a body, do you not believe that he is omnipresent (in all places at once)? Or do you understand omipresence in a different way?

    I think I answered this in my previous post but only in an offhanded, implicit way. We do believe in God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence and that he is everywhere present by the power of his spirit.
  21. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks Greedo and Coolguy for your answers. Sorry about your potential girlfriend, Greedo. That sucks.


    Got a few questions (what?? more questions??) on the verse from Doctrine and Covenants that you quoted:

    The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man?s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22)

    1] Does Jesus's body as it is in eternity look exactly like the body he was born into when he was physically on the earth?


    2] If God the Father has a physical body, how do you interpret these verses:

    "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

    "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 2:27)


    3] Similarly, if Jesus now also has a physical body, how do you interpret this:

    "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." (Ephesians 4:10)


    Thanks for the answers guys. (And may you find true love, Greedo, before Valentines ;) )

  22. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
  23. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    While sitting here at work when I shouldn't really be going to Star Wars message boards and as a prologue to answering Grand Moff Monkey's questions more in depth in probably another post later on tonight I should mention that one of the Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We respect it for all that is and all that it gives us and also accept additional scripture that can clarify, solidify, and expand upon concepts in the Bible.

    1] Does Jesus's body as it is in eternity look exactly like the body he was born into when he was physically on the earth?

    Hmm, I'd say pretty much. When Jesus showed his resurrected body to his apostles they felt his wounds and he showed them he could eat by eating broiled fish and some honeycomb. I believe it is the book of Zechariah where it says that in his Second Coming the Jews would look on him and say, "What are these wounds?" And he will reply, "These are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

    2] If God the Father has a physical body, how do you interpret these verses:

    "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)

    "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 2:27)


    God does have a spirit and a body just as we have a spirit and a body. God's spirit fills the whole universe, while ours does not, but when we worship him we must worship according to the spirit and keep our physical desires in subjection.

    3] Similarly, if Jesus now also has a physical body, how do you interpret this:

    "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." (Ephesians 4:10)


    We believe that through Christ's atonement he descended below all things, meaning that he is able to comprehend anything that we as mortal individuals might suffer. This question is a little hard for me to answer because I don't know if other Christian religions believe that Jesus had a resurrected body only up to a certain point before becoming only a spirit.
  24. Grand_Moff_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks for the reply Greedo. I'm at work as well so I know what you mean.

    Just a couple of points about your reply:

    I should mention that one of the Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

    Fair point. But in a way, by its very nature, no translation can ever be perfect. What comes to mind is the Septuagint. This was the Greek translation of the Old Testament that is used and quoted from in the New Testament. When you compare a certain verse as its quoted in the New Testament with its original counterpart in the Old Testament, there's always some differences because they're quoting from a translation, but in all cases the sense is always the same. So I'm confident when using a translation because Jesus himself and the apostles quoted from a translation.

    Why doesn't the LDS church do its own translation of the Bible, that it can be sure it's translated correctly and can be trusted?




  25. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    Actually, we do have our own translation. After Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon he began to make an inspired translation or revision of the Bible. He covered parts of it all the way from Genesis to Revelation but due to lack of funding he was not able to be as thorough as he would have liked to have been. So we accept the King James version as our official Bible and use what we have of Joseph Smith's translation as inspired supplementary material.

    He was especially thorough making an inspired revision of the first few chapters of Genesis and the resultant material was so expansive that it warranted its own whole section in The Pearl of Great Price and is known there as the Book of Moses.

    A few other chunks were big enough to be included in a separate section at the end of the LDS printing of the Bible but mostly the changes are noted in the footnotes.

    In some instances the changes are viewed as clarifications, in other instances they are corrections of erroneous material. John 4:24 is fine how it has come down to us in the King James Version but Joseph Smith's translation is a little clearer.

    For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.


    If you go to http://scriptures.lds.org you can find if other verses have had such changes made.