Lit Mortis and the Gaping Plot Hole?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ridiculis, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    And what if Anakin was Darth Caedus had he survived?
  2. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Then the would have just been better off just calling him Darth Vader II and be done with it. I already refer to Darth Caedus as Darth Vader II out of shear disdain for the whole concept.
  3. dokratr0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2013
    star 1
    Why, at the end of Apocalypse, did Luke only take Jaina to the final confrontation with Abeloth when the rest of the Jedi Council was right there?
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  4. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Kyle alone could've helped make a difference! ^:)^
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  5. Nobody145 Force Ghost

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    Feb 9, 2007
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    I'm not sure the text even bothered to mention that they were all injured, busy with other matters (stopping that volcano on Coruscant) or fighting Abeloth in the Coruscant Temple (that was what Saba was up to). Typical of FotJ's laziness (sure, keep most of the Jedi confined to Coruscant so Luke has to do everything and Jaina can occasionally play chauffeur, a waste of her talents, especially after LotF).

    Anyway, in regards to the original TCW episode, its doesn't quite clash with anything as I could see Obi-wan filing a report. What I find hard to swallow is that that report could have survived all these years. After all, for most of his early years as a Jedi, Luke was having trouble finding any teachings from the old Jedi, since Palpatine had destroyed or hidden away everything he could. So for a convenient Clone Wars era report to survive is a bit... contrived.

    Not to mention how little of a role Mortis actually played in FotJ. Sure, it sort explained Abeloth's, but only at the last minute, and its not like it really helped during Luke's final battle with her. It set up the Quest Knights, but I wouldn't call that a good example of a plot but rather blatant setup for more novels by leaving unfinished plots. Well, Abeloth was defeated for now, and it is said how difficult finding the Dagger of Mortis will be (I think?), but I really hate it when one cash-grab ends with set-up for the next cash-grab.

    Who knows why Mortis was included, if I remember right, when FotJ started, major alterations were made somewhere around the fourth book, so about halfway through. Of course, a nine-book series that starts without a definite ending in mind does not sound like a good idea, but then, what is a good idea from post-NJO? :rolleyes: So they started out writing without being sure how to end it? Something like that I think. Doesn't help that Mortis isn't a very popular concept either. Other EU stuff that have referenced Mortis have usually been more vague, that it was a think of ancient legend, interpretation, etc. FotJ goes with a very literal interpretation of it (Abeloth was some sort of fake-mother to the other three, so gotta find the thingy that killed the first three), which doesn't help the reception. Not to mention how long it took them to get around to sort of explaining Abeloth, and how random it was (go to the Killiks, rather than finish examining those ruins on her planet). But then FotJ was full of... not so much plot holes (though there were quite a few, or at least loose ends like those prisoners frozen in carbonite) but more like random leaps from plot point to plot point, many devoid of logic or common sense or good storytelling.
  6. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    There were three hundred Sith lose on Coruscant, thousands of Sith within the temple and Abeloth? Plenty to keep the Counil busy. A Grandmaster and Master to save a Knight and Sith from Abeloth? He had to divide his numbers.

    I cannot recall - where does it explicitly say Anakin, Ahsoka and Kenobi forget everything about Mortis?
  7. AusStig Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2010
    star 4
    Maybe AOTC is in audio book format?
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  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Fate of the Jedi was a giant plot hole. The plot was less numerous than the holes.
  9. AusStig Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 3, 2010
    star 4
    So it had plot 'bubbles/stretches' where the plot wasn't in a whole?
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    There were small islands of plot in a vast void of its absence, and nothing connected them in the narrative. The Mortis backstory is a good example. It is exposition that is completely detached from the action.
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  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    They never lost their memories. In fact, the ending shows that they never lost their memories, as they're amazed to find out they're right back where they started, with no time being lost, at the end of the Mortis trilogy.

    The only thing that is forgotten is Anakin finding out his future.
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  12. DarkEagle Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2009
    star 4
    source
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    If he didn't want to pin anything in Mortis down, then why did he make the whole thing definitively literal? Sounds like he was more concerned about keeping his Celestials mysterious than keeping Mortis mysterious.
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  14. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 4
    It's odd to think that the Celestials originated just as aliens who built big space machines, and that somehow got twisted into them being the gods who run the Force. That doesn't even really make sense as a combination. Can you really imagine the family from the Mortis episodes, who are entirely Force beings, deciding that in order to protect the galaxy from an evil Force entity, they're...going to build a giant repulsor device and play a game of interstellar pool? Rather than just use Force hocus-pocus to trap her?
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  15. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Actually the others of their kind seem to have build that stuff and then moved somewhere else, they just stayed behind.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I thought, according to Apocalypse, Centerpoint Station was built specifically by the Killiks, to contain Abeloth, at the behest of the Ones?
  17. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    Well that is what the Kiliks tell us and they are always a little vague.
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  18. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    When you consider the whole Mortis Arc nothing in FotJ makes sense when they talked about t.

    The Father wants Anakin to stay to keep his two children in line because not only will they unleash great destruction on the Galaxy but their are beings that would exploit their power. The Sith are on the list but their has to be more. The Father tells Anakin that this place isn't just a sanctuary but a prison that they can't/shouldn't leave.

    It is also note worthy that the Daughter died because she was stabbed with the Dagger of Mortis and the Father stabbed himself with it as well but the Son was killed out flat by a mere lightsaber. What does this tell us? That they could have been harmed and/or killed by regular weapons.

    I will admit that the Father said something about taking his son's powers with him but the fact remains that in the end the Son was killed with a mere lightsaber which he had called a "crude implement".

    The BIGGER question is why would Yoda impart this little adventure that Obi-Wan and Anakin had during the Clone Wars on Dagobah when there were more important things to tell Luke? It would have been one thing if Luke stumbled on one of the reports or a Council Member's thoughts on Obi-Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka's reports on what they found there. I will bet my newest movie that Obi-Wan and Ahsoka left out Anakin's little stint as the Son's lackey. Whether or not Obi-Wan and Anakin shared what happened to Ahsoka is up for debate
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  19. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    ;)
    [IMG]
  20. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

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    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
  21. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
  22. Gorefiend Chosen One

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  23. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Here's your gaping plot hole:

    "In Yoda’s story, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker encountered the Father when he was dying. The Son and the Daughter were at odds because the Son wanted to take the Father’s place. The Father told Anakin that he had been chosen to assume the Father’s place — and keep the balance between the two siblings. When Anakin refused, matters came to a head. The Ones fought, all three were slain, and their world died with them.”

    The Son didn't want to take Father's place, he wanted to leave Mortis. Furthermore, he didn't want to leave Mortis until after Anakin had arrived and he realized how powerful he could be. Matters didn't come to a head because Anakin refused; Anakin's refusal had nothing to do with the Son's plan, as Son didn't let Anakin leave. And once the Daughter died, Anakin refused to leave despite Father's insistence that he do so.

    “The only thing I don’t see is, if the Father is dead, who keeps the Balance?”
    Luke thought for a moment, then said, “Us, I think — the Jedi and the Sith. Thuruht said the galaxy enters a new age whenever Abeloth is freed — and the dream means that in this age, it’s the Jedi and Sith — each following our own natures—who will keep the Balance.”

    Denning solidifies the idea that Anakin's destiny as the Chosen One was to remain on Mortis and keep Son and Daughter in balance, and that by not doing this, Anakin did not fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One. This is in spite of Father telling Anakin that "You have brought balance to this world. Stay on this path, and you will do it again for the galaxy," which not only seems to indicate that keeping balance on Mortis is distinct from keeping balance in the galaxy, but that Anakin would balance the Force in the galaxy.

    And there's the usual caveat that it's Luke saying this, so Luke can obviously be wrong as a fallible character, but why have Luke spout nonsense? And it sounds to me as though Denning is trying to justify why there's thousands of Sith despite Anakin fulfilling the prophecy. Even if Luke is just wrong and destroying the Sith may have balanced the Force for Anakin, in this new age, the Sith help keep the balance! It's a whole new ballgame!
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  25. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Denning also wrote DNT and Luke having problems coming to terms with what his father did in RotS. Luke had problems with seeing his father stand by as Jedi Younglings were killed by Clones. Yes it is one thing to know that his father was a major part of the Jedi Purge and another thing to witness him taking part in it. Another thing from DNT is why in the world was R2 recording Anakin and Padme talk their first night back on Coruscant instead of enjoying himself since Anakin and him had been gone for no less then five months? And then Obi-Wan and Padme's conversation? Shouldn't R2 been at the Temple or something? And why is R2 just standing there RECORDING Anakin choking Padme???

    Going back to the Mortis Arc we don't understand what happened or if it was even real. Dave is probably laughing his head off at us.