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Mos Eisley in the OOT and the Special Editions

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Biel Ductavis, May 17, 2018.

  1. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    There is no "majestic outline". When it cuts to the matte painting, we can barely make out the spaceport at all!:
    [​IMG]

    Ben calls it a wretched hive of scum and villainy. There is absolutely nothing about the preceding music or shots that is doesn't fit with what we see of it:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    It's like the Star Wars equivalent of an old Western town where people can (and do) get into bar fights, as we see for ourselves. We see a lot of people walking around, droids, landspeeders, non-distracting creatures in the background, large machinery, and even Jawas. The Jawas fit well into this scummy place because we know they ambush & sell lost droids and are seen bothering Luke as he parks his speeder. And then it lives up to its villainous description once Luke is attacked.

    There is not a single thing about it that doesn't jive with what we're told that it is. With the special editions, its clear that numerous shots are there just to show off. We see some droids engaging in slapstick humor, which goes against the more foreboding tone described by Ben earlier. And the large CG creatures that obstruct the screen are kind of obnoxious in how distracting they are. I'm not opposed to enhancing the spaceport in principle, but the way it's done is with that "Hey look at all the cool stuff we can do now with computers!" kind of way that feels out of place. The establishing X-wing shot before the battle of Yavin does the same thing: "Hey look at how we can move the camera around to really showcase these newly constructed CG X-Wings!". Really, the best special edition changes are ones that aren't so in-your-face about it.
     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    They're on a promontory looking at the outline of Mos Eisley spread out on the landscape before them in the distance as Ben evocatively speaks of it in superlative terms and trumpets ardently blare in the background. It's clearly supposed to be impressive. I'm not sure what else to say here because this is just basic filmic language that you either get or you don't.

    And it's not just supposed to be an Old West town. It's a cross between an Old West town and, as another poster pointed out earlier, the port city of Casablanca.

    I don't find your anti-CGI rant interesting so I'm not going to address it.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  3. Avnar

    Avnar Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Coming from Obi Wan - That statement must be given respect. The dude has been to a lot of places... 2 (is it 3??) deaths in a very short space...yeah I can see why it has the reputation it does!
     
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  4. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    In old westerns, the sleepy towns lack railroad access. The towns with railroads access, known as "rail heads," are busy and bustling, often filled with all kinds of tramps looking for their next mark. Mos Eisly, being a spaceport town would be more akin to a old west rail head town with lots of traffic than a sleepy little town that lacks rail access.
     
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  5. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 16, 2015
    What I'm getting at is that it's certainly not un-impressive. When it cuts to the matte painting, we see something remote and far off into the distance, surrounded by mountains. Visually, their geographic location with the view that they have is already impressive. Couple that with Ben's description of how they need to be careful, and I'd say it's worthy of the musical cue. Once we actually get to the port itself, the music changes to reflect that we're actually there now, as opposed to observing & talking about it from a distance. Remember, context is everything; the first shot of a town that is far off into the distance, surrounded by mountains, and accompanied by a foreboding description is enough to warrant a trumpet-y musical cue. But if you decide to associate the music solely with the port's physical appearance once we get there, then you're missing out on a lot more of what the film is trying to tell you. There is also absolutely nothing we see once we get there that would make an audience member think back to the previous scene and feel that the tone didn't fit. We don't need to see a wide shot with tall buildings, ships flying around, and distracting creatures to feel impressed. I mean, maybe some people do. I certainly don't.

    What it is is largely dependent on what version of the movie you're watching and how you interpret it. If you watch the original version, it's more like a Western town. And there's nothing wrong nor contradictory about that.

    Well it's not "anti-CGI", it's more just about how a lot of added shots stand out....not because they're CG, but because they're clearly constructed in a way that is trying to show off, and it feels distracting. There is a jarring disconnect between these kinds of shots and others in the movie such that the movie loses consistency with itself. To quote you, I'll say this: "I'm not sure what else to say here because this is just basic filmic language that you either get or you don't."
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    It can be said that he is talking of Coruscant and Mos Eisley is hardly that. It's not as big as Mos Espa even.

    Does it look like the spaceport with plenty of ships? Hardly.

    Back at the time in 1977 it didn't matter than the set-up and realization didn't match up but clearly the city in the distance was supposed to be a Casablanca. If Lucas could have done what he wanted then it'd be what he was able to do in TPM (where he got in places that were on location that he couldn't fit in) he would have.

    We can see though it's clearly a very large city covering a lot of ground. Based on how far away they are and the space it covers it's not just some sleepy place with one main street that can be gotten through in 5 minutes.

    The Falcon is in docking bay 94 not 5. There are literally supposed to be hundreds of docking bays fully built underground. The busy, bustling spaceport is in line with everything else seen in the movie after they go into the cantina.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  7. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 16, 2015
    My point is that nothing we see of it contradicts that it is large, nor that it has many underground docking bays. Seeing one large street doesn't mean that it's the only one. We see what we need to see. We need to see them get to Mos Eisley; we see that and we get a taste of what it's like at street-level. We don't need to see them traverse street after street to understand that it is simply one of many (although we do see another one). We don't need to see numerous underground hangars; seeing one allows us to fill in the gaps. The whole place is impressive in how shady it looks. There's critters that look like they might try and steal Luke's speeder as soon as he parks it. There's suspicious fellows in hoods following them around. There's an entire cantina full of weird aliens and some even pick a fight with Luke! What we see of this port certainly lives up to its description by Ben.

    The other thing to note is how the Mos Eisley scenes are shot. There were technical limitations of that time, so they obviously couldn't show a large wide shot of the space port. But these limitations were creatively dealt with by creating these kinds of busy and almost claustrophobic shots (I certainly don't get a "sleepy town" vibe from them):
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    When the Falcon takes off, the camera is placed at ground level looking up at the ship taking off. This sort of framing cleverly hides what they could not film and suggests a larger scope to the port than they could actually show:
    [​IMG]
    And by the way, the Tatooine shots I posted all look kind of soft and glowy because Lucas wanted to convey a dream-like feeling to that planet (which I think he changed his mind on because the special editions don't do this anymore).
     
  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    As l said the western towns with railroad access were bustling, those with seaports by the gulf or coast even more so.
     
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    He didn't want to suggest that Mos Eisely was large and impressive. He wanted to show it, because it's a science fiction fantasy film whose entire artistic ethos glorifies visual spectacle. The technical limitations of the time, as quaint and charming as you find them, were limitations holding back the film from what he wanted it to be.
     
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  10. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 29, 2016
    Oh he definitely turned it into a spectacle - just not the kind he intended.
     
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  11. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 16, 2015
    I realize that, and I'm sure there was plenty that he wanted to do that he was not able to because of technical limitations. The work that he and ILM were able to achieve despite the monetary and technical limitations is nothing short of amazing. Regarding Mos Eisley, yeah the larger scope that we can see is good in theory and it lets him have it the way he wants it exactly.

    But a lot of the additions are ultimately jarring and do not stylistically jive with the original shots from 1977. The camera freely moves in ways to show things that could not be achieved in 1977. Robots and creatures are digitally animated. There is slapstick humor upon entering this wretched hive of scum and villainy. And all of that is great in the sense that Lucas can now get exactly what he wants...but the problem is one of tone and shot construction. When things are added or changed without proper regard to the context of surrounding scenes, then they feel out of place. And this goes beyond just Mos Eisley. For example, if we take ship movement through space, Star Wars has a very distinct way these shots are constructed to portray the illusion of movement; basically, the starfield moves in some diagonal direction unrelated to the ship's movement in order to make it seem faster and more dynamic. Those types of shots are part of the film's identity; but when you change some of them so that there's completely free camera control but keep others how they were, then what you ultimately achieve is a stylistic inconsistency throughout the film. When you have some establishing shots that only move along a single axis, but have others that can rotate and zoom out freely, then there's an inconsistency. Tonally, when a place is described as dangerous, but you see slapstick antics upon entering it, then that is a tonal inconsistency.

    Having visual spectacle and trying to overcome past limitations is all well and good in theory. But as with most things, execution is key. Things like tone and shot construction....they matter. Whatever limitations the original film had, it was all very distinctly part of that original 1977 George Lucas experience. And, stylistically speaking, the film at least had a consistent visual style.
     
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  12. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    The way I always saw it is the original is basically what it would look like in that "old west" mentality-whereas the SE version is meant to more closely resemble something that would fit specifically in the GFFA of what else we've seen so far. (aka more "star wars-y"). Personally, although I could've done without the Jawa slapstick in the SE/DVD/Blu Ray edition, I actually prefer the SE version, as it widens the scope abit for me-kind of taking it from that "low-budget western" feel to more of an otherworldly "sci fi adventure," feel which I enjoy more.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    One of the defining aspects of Star Wars popularity, and its notoriety on first release, was the juxtaposition first between the 2001 in high gear effect of the opening scene and the immediate transportation to Lawrence Of Arabia, but also the totally outrageous sight of robots mixing it with an archetypal (american) western farm boy but within the more post modern/exotic trappings of a Sergio Leone western (reportedly the main influence that Lucas took for the location shoot) with guests straight out of a Halloween party filling out the backgrounds.

    These were materially anachronistic qualities that defined the texture of Star Wars, before being Star Wars became a thing. Episodes V and VI continued this in their own way.

    The way that things were treated in the SE of Star Wars, speicifically Tatooine was, in my opinion, the most "disney" thing to have happened to Star Was to date. It sort of homogenised Tatooine as a Star Wars looking type of place where Star Wars things happen. Rather than a crazy, horrible, wonderful place where anything can happen, and which we are happy for Star Wars to take us on a visit to.
     
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  14. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    Yes, the SE made Mos Eisley way too generic and homogene looking. Just another star warsy place among hundred others. The homogenisation of the settings which started in the ANH SE and became even more a thing in the Prequels and never really went away in the TV shows, new movies and new comics took a lot of fascination away for me that i had for the GFFA since my first watch of the OOT.
     
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  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    On the contrary, it's precisely the kind he intended.
     
  16. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    That may be true for George at a later point of his life, but i doubt that Lucas in 1976/1977 had these intensions.
     
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  17. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No, he always voiced his dissatisfaction with how things turned out when compared to what he wanted them to be. And Mos Eisley was precisely one of the things that led to the Special Edition changes.

    Fortunately, he was able to materialize his vision.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  18. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    Maybe he always wanted to make Mos Eisley bigger, i'm not sure about that. But i'm convinced that he originally never intended to insert slapstic scenes and so many different creatures in these scenes, which destroy the pacing and tone of these scenes for me in the SE.

    And i believe younger George Lucas never wanted these scenes to look so generic.
     
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  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Your argument is that since you don't like the end result, it means he never intended to do what he did in the first place. Sorry, but that's a flawed logic.

    He did want Mos Eisley to be bigger and busy, both in scale and scope. He said it countless times. It's a spaceport, it's perfectly logical. But your preferences, or the ones of any of us here, are irrelevant to his (original and/or final) intentions.
     
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  20. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    Maybe bigger and busier. I can see that. But i doubt, based on the tone of the rest of the movie and other OT films, that he wanted to insert slapstic into these scenes.
     
  21. Darkside Floyd

    Darkside Floyd Jedi Master star 2

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    Sep 3, 2008
    Each to their own, I had and still have no problem with the original rendition of Eisley. Even given the limitations of effects and filming at that time, I think Lucas successfully conveyed the feeling and atmosphere the dialogue was describing of the port. Seeing more spaceships is nice but really doesn't enhance the vibe anymore that it exists for me already.
    .
     
  22. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I concur. I admit I liked the 1997 version initially, but I've come to miss the original. If Mos Eisley is smaller than Mos Espa, then the original version is better.
     
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  23. Biel Ductavis

    Biel Ductavis Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    I miss the atmosphere of the original version so much. It were such memorable scenes. You could almost think Tatooine's a real place and you see people living through an ordinary day of there life, almost like in watching a documentation.
     
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  24. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I'm fine with the special edition Mos Eisley. Only part I don't like is when the dinosaur thing walks in front of the camera.
     
  25. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I tend to agree. I actually think the additions on Tatooine and Bespin work very well.
     
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