Saga Most powerful Jedi/Sith

Let's leave canon debates out of Saga, please. There's the movies - and then there's the rest, which no one is required to take as definitive if they don't want to.

 

Here's something interesting to ponder; where will Rebels characters fit into this debate?

Kanan, Ezra and Inquisitor. All our list might need rewriting in a year or two.

 

Update ;

Tier 10

• The Ones (Abeloth as Mother)

Tier 9

• Grand Master - Luke
• Grand Master - Yoda
• Darth Plagueis
• Darth Sidious
• Darth Nihilus
• Master of the Order - Mace Windu
• The Sith Emperor - Vitiate

Tier 8

• Darth Vader
• Count Dooku
• Darth Maul
• Darth Caedus
• Darth Krayt
• Darth Malgus
• Darth Sion
• Satele Shan
• Darth Bane
• Exar Kun
• Darth Tenebrous
• Darth Bane
• Darth Zannah
• Darth Scabrous
• Starkiller
• Darth Venamis
• Lumiya
• Kyp Durron
• Darth Revan
• Darth Traya

Tier 7

• Obi-Wan Kenobi
• Anakin Skywalker
• Plo Koon
• Qui-Gon Jinn
• Kit Fisto
• Asajj Ventress
• Savage Opress
• Darth Nihl
• Darh Wyyrlok
• Darth Talon
• Pong Krell
• Jerec
• Kyle Katarn
• Ulic Qel-Droma
• Odan-Urr
• Darth Malak
• Bruu Jun-Fan
• Quinlan Vos
• Sora Bulq
• Cade Skywalker
• Saesee Tiin
• Agen Kolar
• Anoon Bondara
• Darth Maladi
• Jaina Solo
• Saba Sebatyne
• Ven Zallow
• Meetra Surik

 

This is always a tough discussion because you have some A beat B, B beat C, and C beat A scenarios. Dooku, Kenobi, Skywalker being the prime example. You also have situations where someone beat someone else but the circumstances were not clear cut. Kenobi slicing up Maul when he let his guard down on Naboo being an example of that. And you also have the slower OT styles that are more a result of 20+ years difference in cinematography and SFX than the actual storyline. And then you have arguments such as whether or not Sidious threw the fight against Windu in order to help influence Anakin.

But anyway, all things considered, here's my Top Five:

1. Mace: We didn't see as much of him as we did others in the Saga. Just one duel. But he is a highly regarded Jedi Master and did beat Sidious.

2. Sidious: Stalemate with Yoda. Giving him the edge because of his force lightning.

3. Yoda: Stalemate with Sidious. A little better than Dooku in AOTC. Had some other impressive feats of power.

4. Anakin/Vader: Handled Dooku well in ROTS. Lost to Kenobi on Mustafar, but he was clearly superior in the rematch on the Death Star. Never lost a duel to someone he didn't also beat at some other point.

5. Dooku: Hard to put Kenobi above him considering what happened in AOTC and ROTS. Being a master of force lightning helps.

 

I'm still amazed by how many people think Sidious beat down Yoda! It's really blowing my mind. Were you people watching the same fight?

Let's forget for a moment that the dude flat out tried to run away from Yoda.

At best you can say it was a draw.

Personally, I saw Yoda taking control of that fight at the end and Sidious realized it as well. The battleground worked in Palpatines favor due to the fact that he had the high ground and was able to just hurl debris at Yoda. But even despite that, Yoda was able to overcome it and take the advantage.

Palpatine walked away from the encounter, but Yoda was not "beaten" IMO.

Sidious also had an entire building full of guards to fall back on. Let's remember that little tidbit!

Yoda couldn't fight an army by himself. He knew there weren't many options open to him. He had to escape to help what few Jedi remained if they were ever going to regain control of the Republic.

So you can say Palpatine walked away with the win, but he in no way "destroyed" or "beat down" Yoda.

 

Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel,​

in the end the Sith bested him​

. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure.​

Defeated​

, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.​

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia​

He'd never had it.​

He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.​

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.​

While the Jedi—​

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?​

Source: Revenge of the Sith​

​

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.​

Source: Mysteries of the Jedi​

Sidious battles with passion and fury, only to be matched every blow by Yoda's calm, measured skill.​

Source: Beware the Sith​

Obi-Wan and Vader duel on Mustafar while Yoda and Palpatine duel on Coruscant. Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda, who escapes with Bail Organa.​

--Taken from The Comics Companion
You can go ahead and say they stalemated, but no source says that Yoda beat Palps. Basically, Yoda<=Palps.

Palpatine running away is not germane at all to this argument or to him being weaker than Yoda, and especially when it's completely contradicted right after Sidious is stalemating him, shoots lightning powerful enough to knock Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, and Yoda looking exhausted right after the fall.

People need to learn the difference between a very close fight and a stomp. No one says that Sidious "beat him down" or "destroyed" him, if you say that with the idea of Sidious besting Yoda easily. People are saying that it's close, but in the end Yoda would lose. If I said something like Dooku would beat Mace in a very close fight, I'm not saying that he's gonna beat Mace with ease like some people interpret that for some reason.

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."​

--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

If you say that with the intention of saying Mace>Palps

Yoda is not a "little better" than Dooku. He stomps him. In all 2 encounters, Yoda held back.
"Wish to hurt you I do not!" he said in Dark Rendezvous.




Keep in mind that Dooku was amped, and he still got beat by Yoda with little effort/in one page.

Anakin and Obi-Wan made it their mission to capture Count Dooku. They cornered him in the Geonosian hangar bay, but Dooku's powers proved too great. Far from being merely a disaffected Jedi, Dooku was in fact a Sith Lord, Darth Sidious' replacement for the late Darth Maul. Dooku's crimson lightsaber severed Anakin's right arm at the elbow, and both Jedi would have died had it not been for the arrival of Yoda. The windmilling onslaught of Yoda's lightsaber forced Dooku to flee.​

--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Note: I don't say any of this with aggression of that's what you think.

 

Ha! No, no, of course not. Good stuff.

 

I completely understand this and have said as much in many posts. While I do think the issue with Yoda admitting his defeat was more situational than an issue of lack of power.

My issue was with a lot of the people on this site misunderstanding that fight. If you look at quite a few of the posts around here, some of what has been said is insane.

Sidious is massively powerful. The most powerful Sith in history. And technically he did win the fight. But he isn't so powerful that he worked Yoda. That is my issue. People saying that it wasn't even close.

I find it so evenly matched that I can't even say with any conviction who is stronger. And I think that's what was intended with those two. Almost like two sides of the same coin.

 

And I agree with the Yoda/Dooku fight.

That is spot on. Yoda was trying everything possible to bring him back to the light......and almost succeeded!

I really liked the part in Dark Rendezvous where Yoda takes on a cloak of the Dark. Side. Just to give Dooku a taste of what that would be like.

 

I would love to see posts that say that so I can rip them apart. I don't care if I'm debating for Palps but saying that he easily beats Yoda is nonsense. Yoda is at least powerful enough to make GM Luke work out a little if they ever fought imo. In fact, you can use those third and fourth quotes of mine to argue Yoda's case if you want.


Oh yeah and I recall hearing on comicvine that it said somewhere that he disarmed Palps in their duel but it was retconned. I'm gonna do some more digging to find that quote...

Be ready to argue if you say this though. I've heard convincing arguments from the other side saying that despite that quote, Yoda supposedly did a full frontal assault on Dooku according to the same source. I however, still believe he was holding back. There is no way if Yoda went all out that Dooku would be able to even stop himself from getting blitzed imo.

 

Well don't look around some of the other threads, because the Sith huggers are all out and about.

It's been said by every Starwars source I've read or watched that Yoda is every bit as powerful as Sidious.

And I believe it. 17,000 midi count with 900 years to study the force. How the hell could he not be?! There was a reason Sidious tried to avoid that fight! He knew that there was one Jedi that was his match, and he was standing in his doorway. I don't care what anyone says, that was not a fight that Sidious was eager to jump into.

 

Btw....I'm so glad someone FINALLY gave GM Luke some love!

I'm a huge fan of the EU, and Luke really does grow to be one of the greatest Jedi of all time. I like his EU stories more than his role in the movie saga.

 

It's not really about me giving a certain character love. It's more about using a bunch of quotes and sources to back up my claims. You can believe what you want but if a vs debate gets serious I'm not gonna just listen to some guy using ridiculous speculation and emotion, nor will I bother to listen to someone that continually lowballs characters but highballs their favorite one and completely ignores their low showings or just conjures up information to explain the low showing. I was just really convinced by Luke's feats and what not. I adhere to keeping my emotions, opinions, and bias out of my vs arguments strictly. In fact, I ******* hate that bratty dude you call "The Chosen One" but it is unfortunate that he has over 20000 of those microscopic life forms that I will not dare to speak of, and that makes him have as much potential as Luke.



Example: I like Ahsoka better than Mace. I admit that Mace stomps her. I think Yoda is a better character than Sidious, but I believe that Yoda can only stalemate him cause of those quotes.I believe that Sidious is equal to Yoda, but I admit Luke would beat him.

There are only a select few that let their fanboyism of Sith get in the way, and most of them you can catch if you see them pulling random conjured up **** out of their ***, or just dangling on to one-three completely meaningless quotes that are contradicted by their showings. When they use frustrating or headache inducing logic, you'll know they're letting fanboyism get in the way.

"Mace solos both of them since he stomped Sidous already. And anakin chopped off maces hands so he beat mace. He aint called the chosen one for no reason people. We should be discussing anakin vs the whole sith order from history because of that mace feat. Plus he could have obi wan on his team since obi wan is equal to anakin. Yoda n Sidiouos are getting old anyway sisious is like 50 by the time he fights Samuel L jackson and yoda is well into his 120s. if u dont think that mace or anakin or obi wan stomp then your freaking biased."--- Almost every Star Wars battle debater today in a nutshell.

XD

Luckily I have not seen someone like that on these forums yet.

 

I'm the same way.

At the end of the day, it's really not worth getting too worked up over. It's all fiction. Lol

I think Sidious is a great character, not so much in the movies as in the. EU. The Darth Plagueis novel really brings his character some much needed depth and fleshes him out for me.

Yoda is my favorite character in the series, but I have no issue saying he lost. In fact I find it makes his story all the better.

I've never understood being so blinded by your own fondness for a character that you can't see the forest for the trees? It's crazy.

 

How is Sidious portrayed in the DP novel?

 

Well I don't want to ruin it. It gives you a lot of background on him. His life before he was Sith. His training. The scheming afterwards.

It really is a great read. The audiobook is great as well.

 

Go ahead and ruin it.

 

If you do the audio book get the unabridged version tho. You'll miss lots if you don't.

I have a wife and kids so I don't have much free time to sit and read, so audiobooks are a great thing for me. Just throw on the head phones and do my chores.

But only do abridged versions if you have no other choice. They are basically glorified cliff notes lol.

 

The most powerful Jedi/Sith is whomever the writers require for the moment.

 

It's also misleading to say "Character X is more powerful than Character Y" just based on the outcome of a single lightsaber battle. Sometimes strategy, level-headedness, the specific situation, and just plain luck can also play a role. So, for example, I think Sidious and Yoda are about equally powerful. And Sidious did win the fight in RotS, but if they fought five different times under five different circumstances, I wouldn't be able to predict the outcome.

 

The greatest example of this is in RotS. Dooku defeated Obi-Wan, and was defeated by Anakin, but Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in the same movie.

Another example is in TPM. Qui-Gon was defeated by Maul, and Obi-Wan defeated Maul, but this doesn't mean that Obi-Wan is stronger than Maul & Qui-Gon.

 

He is, he just wasn't at that point in time.

 

I think yoda was the most powerful jedi of all. sidious was the most powerful sith. this is based on experience and overall knowledge and power.

 

Yet experience rarely mattered in the movie duels. Often a young warrior would defeat a far more experienced opponent, like Anakin against Dooku, Luke against Vader or Maul against Qui-Gon. Like in real life, experience only accounts for so much.

 

Thanks to Rebels, Ezra is now the most powerful Jedi ever.