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PT "Mourn them do not; Miss them do not."-Good advice or bad advice?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Jul 9, 2018 at 9:21 AM.

  1. The One Above All

    The One Above All Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Exactly what it says on the title. Do you think this is good life advice, or should it just be dismissed as an outdated form of dogma? I've never been sure as to whether it's a healthy or unhealthy way of looking at things. What do you think?
     
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  2. LAJ_FETT

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Lucasfilm Ltd Mod star 9 Staff Member Administrator

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    May 25, 2002
    I think it depends on the situation. Both of my parents had cancer and were in their 80s so their leaving was pretty much expected (and in the case of my dad an end to pain). I mourned at the time and I still miss them but I haven't let it rule my life. However the unexpected death of a child or partner is probably another matter. I haven't had to deal with either so I can't speak from experience.
     
  3. Ash_Satine

    Ash_Satine Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 5, 2017
    I also think that it depends. If a person is permanently ill and life itself would be a torture, than it is a good advice. My mum had lung cancer (inoperabel, there were no treatments left) and her death was the best. In a way I was "glad" that she died so soon. Same with my grandma who wasn't ill but died at 94. She had a long and good life, at least after the war.

    Still I have problems with Yoda's advice. As true as it is, it comes to a bad time. Not only because of Anakin, but it sounded cold. Would I have gotten that advice when my mum got her diagnose and before any treatments I probably would have punched that guy right there.

    If people die you shouldn't hang on your sadness and let that define you, but before someone dies you should try to help. For me Yoda's words in that scene sounds like someone who watches someone drowning and does nothing.
     
  4. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 5, 2011
    A great state of being, but very difficult to actually achieve.
     
  5. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 12, 2017
    It might be good advice for a member of the Jedi Order, but not for any real life human being dealing with a bereavement. I think that mourning and missing someone are very much a natural part of the grieving process. To deny oneself that very human response would be counter-productive, in my view.

    It is, of course, natural to come to terms with a bereavement over time. This is only achieved after a period of mourning and acceptance. It is also quite normal and healthy to acknowledge that you miss somebody, even years after they have gone.
     
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    It's natural to feel these things just as it's natural to feel sadness and fear and anger. But the ultimate goal of these ascetic philosophies is to eventually transcend these emotions and achieve a state of peace with the world as it is. The reason it's unhealthy to deny yourself the responses of mourning and missing someone who has died is because you're still feeling those things, but simply refusing to acknowledge that you're feeling those things. That puts you in conflict with yourself and that's just another source of suffering. The idea isn't to deny those feelings but to totally re-train yourself to view and connect with the world in a way so that those feelings don't even exist for you anymore, at least not in the form that they did before. This isn't something a normal person can reasonably be expected to do. But when you set out on the path of an ascetic, you know what you're getting into. You're trying to transcend the normal human condition and break the eternal cycle of subjective suffering which obscures the true nature of reality.

    The Jedi Order is an ascetic order and this is what Yoda's advice reflects. He isn't being cold or inhumane towards Anakin any more than the Buddha was when he told his followers the same thing. He's simply reminding Anakin what he must try to do. He never says Anakin must deny that he's feeling these things. He's telling Anakin to teach himself to let go, which is what he must continually train himself to do in order to be the best Jedi that he can be.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018 at 3:00 PM
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    The whole speech was good (if not excellent) advice that Anakin, as the Jedi that he is, should strive to follow.
     
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  8. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008
    And even if you achieve it...you are not bullet proof, you can still slip..like me today.

    I don't believe Yoda's advice was wrong or the Jedi dogma for that matter, but how it was approached and applied with Anakin..knowing he came with different experiences and understandings. Yoda gave him the best advice he could give him from his degree of awareness.

    there's nothing worse than feeling not understood...poor Anakin.:_|:_|:_|:_| Subject hitting close to home today, I'm sorry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018 at 6:42 PM
  9. christophero30

    christophero30 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 18, 2017
    Yes you have to have time to grieve. Non attachment is a nice ideal but not realistic.
     
  10. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008
    Non attachment is not an Ideal...it comes when you understand that energy never dies. ;) Which is exactly what Yoda tells Luke in ESB.
     
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  11. Dandelo

    Dandelo Force Ghost star 7

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    Aug 25, 2014
    agreed.
     
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  12. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008

    Here's a video that will provide some footing to the discussion I believe...I find it ironic that the light side fallacy as to why the Jedi end up the way they do is not mentioned...but has in the end nothing to do with Anakin's turn despite influencing it.
     
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  13. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 28, 2015
    Good question. But I think the most balanced answer is to take your time, but never to let grief consume you.
     
  14. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 26, 2009
    I think it depends upon how long it takes one to accept the passing, and in Anakin's case, acceptance was never an option.
     
  15. Ash_Satine

    Ash_Satine Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 5, 2017
    In Anakin's case acceptance wasn't an option or possibility.
    With Padme there wasn't a real reason except the visions and from his POV his visions/dreams will become reality. So acceptance would mean doing nothing and watch while she dies. (That said, He should have brought her to a medical facility and let them Do their job.)
    With his mother I'm not sure If you can accept something like that. Again, the slaughter was wrong, but "miss her not, mourn her not" is probably no advice someone in that situation is able to except. I would not dare telling that to anyone who just lost ssomeone in a crime.
     
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  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    But going to a medical facility wasn't the problem. He sees what he will do to her, in his quest for power. It was a self-fulling prophecy that she dies the way that she does.

    That's why Yoda does not say that to Anakin until three years later.
     
  17. Christus Regnet

    Christus Regnet Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 10, 2016
    It's probably good advice for someone in a war, constantly watching people die, and having difficulty with it. It's sound advice for a Jedi, raised on Jedi philosphy. Though, Yoda probably did not understand where Anakin was coming from.

    If Anakin had taken Yoda's advice, Padme would never have died. <----Ironic...isn't it?

    That makes it good advice, much better advice than
    "He could even save the ones he loved...from dying"
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008
    Bingo! This what Palps takes advantage of...the loss in translation between Anakin and the Jedi.
     
  19. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    My view is that it's reasonably good advice expressed in a lousy way. To Ani, and to most people, it doesn't come across as, "Don't let grief consume you. Death is but a transition. They're at peace now." It sounds more like, "Don't think about them. Don't even acknowledge them. Be glad that they're gone and move on, like they were never there."
    I think Ani would've been better off asking for counsel from Kenobi. At that point, their earlier hostility had been smoothed out by the camaraderie of war. Kenobi knew Ani pretty well and would be better at expressing the same advice but in a way that would be less likely to be misunderstood. Ani still might not like the idea of just sitting there and doing nothing, but at least he'd have a clearer understanding that the Jedi are not without compassion for those who've suffered a loss.
    This hits home for me, as I've suffered the loss of close family members in recent years. I, too, would've reacted very negatively if anyone had told me, "Mourn them not, miss them not." My Mom would've told Yoda where to go and what to do when he got there, in no uncertain terms.
     
  20. Christus Regnet

    Christus Regnet Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 10, 2016
    Well, Anakin's not just some dude off the street. He's a Jedi Knight, and the temple has been his life for 13 year. He's mostly indoctrinated(<-neutral term) on the ways of the force at this point. He knows right from wrong, and probably knew what Yoda would say, but he's still in distress. There might not be a way to comfort Anakin at this point. From his perspective, Padme's death is a certainty, and he's already sort of grieving, but he's been given this notion of saving her. He's seeing the future, and can't change it.
     
  21. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008
    Anakin was not raised in the Temple, and he's mind is already formed when he enters it.. any psychologist and spiritual figure will tell your Identity is well formed by age of five at the very basic level. To an extent @Kenneth Morgan is right. Anakin can technically be a Jedi, but in truth for the reasons I've already stated above.
     
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  22. Christus Regnet

    Christus Regnet Jedi Knight star 2

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    Mar 10, 2016
    Like I said, Anakin isn't just some dude off the street. He's fully versed in the philosophy of the Jedi, force, etc. He's been taught it for most of his life. What Yoda tells him isn't foreign to him. He also knows right from wrong. It's not like Shmi raised Anakin with ideals totally contrary to the Jedi for 9 years, then he spent the next 13 years ignoring those Jedi ideals, and not learning or adopting them. He came with some baggage, but he's still a Jedi.
     
  23. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 4, 2008
    That baggage is the root of everything though. Its the reason Anakin ultimately failed as Jedi - heck its the reason the JO rejected him in first place...and the Jedi were ill prepared to help heal that, specially when Jinn dies.
     
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  24. Ash_Satine

    Ash_Satine Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 5, 2017
    I know that's an self-fulfilling prophecy. But Anakin didn't know that in that moment. So the logical thing would have been to search after some medical facility and bring your wife there.

    For me the whole advice sounds like being ripped out of context. Either Yoda should have questioned further or should have given some additional advice. And I still think it's funny, that in TCW Yoda takes a similar situation und tells something completely different (or better uses the advice he'll give Luke).
     
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  25. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    ^ In the novellization, at least, Padmé mentioned she went to a medical droid to get checked out and it found nothing wrong with her.

    As far as the message, I get what Yoda was trying to say, “don’t let your personal feelings ruin your life — death will happen to everyone.” It’s the manner in which he said it that came off as cruel and uncaring. For someone like Anakin, who is gripped with the fear of losing his wife (and his child, let’s not forget that...), Yoda’s basically saying, “Bitch, you should be happy they’re dying.”

    Now if he had just said something simple like, “Death is a natural part of life. Grieve, if you must, but let it consume you...do not.” then it might have gone over easier for Anakin. Remember, Yoda’s dealing with a guy who has a lot of baggage to carry around, a guy who is openly obvious with his emotions (nevermind the fact that he’s supposed to be the most powerful Jedi in the Order, if not the friggin’ Chosen One.) I would think Yoda would want to take great pains to ensure Anakin understood the message clearly without coming off as uncompassionate toward a man obviously scared of the people he knows dying. Hell, if I were Yoda, I’d probably go as far as relating a personal story to a time I suffered a tragedy and how I dealt with it. This would show Anakin that even the greatest, oldest Jedi had suffered and still managed to survive the pain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 4:34 AM