Mr Howard - Where is he Taking Australia?

OK... First of all, no offence to any Liberal supporters here, but this is a matter I feel strongly about... If this is redundant, please lock. I checked back a few pages and couldn't find anything.

Mr Howard. We (Australians) are fast becoming globally unpopular because of his actions. What, with the Detention centres... Whatever happened to our "Boundless plains to share?"

And with the US vs Iraq buisness - I am in no way for that. But if Mr Bush declares war on Iraq, it almost certainly means that we do as well, what with Howard attached to Mr Bush's *ahem* prosterior...

Any thoughts?

- Blue

 

Well, i've never been to Australia before, so i'm not sure on how you feel about your leaders or even who your leaders are in general, but i would have my say in saying this thread should be locked. I mean, i may be wrong, but this looks like it will be a start of a big problem, unintentionally of course.

 

We (Australians) are fast becoming globally unpopular

Actually, that is incorrect. The Australian did a poll in America asking people whether:

A) They knew anything about the current refugee issue.
B) Whether it affected their opinion of Australia and Australians.

Most of them had no clue as to what was happening in regards to refugees, and if they had, it (overwhelmingly) had no affect on their opinions of Australia or Australians.

 

No offence to the Americans here but we're on our way to becoming America's 53rd state (if they'll take us, that is).

I'll move to New Zealand if things start getting more right-wing here.

 

And with the US vs Iraq buisness - I am in no way for that. But if Mr Bush declares war on Iraq, it almost certainly means that we do as well, what with Howard attached to Mr Bush's *ahem* prosterior...

We actually have a obligation to help America in times of war. It's called the ANZUS treaty, it is the reason why we went to both Korea and Vietnam.

I'm not a big supporter of Howard, I think that a lot of stuff that he does is done for dodgey reasons (just look at the funding for Aussie universities and making students pay up front fees). However, I don't think he is the worst PM we've ever had.

Kithera

 

ANZUS is actually a tripartite treaty, Kit'. And it has been dead in the water since New Zealand started refusing to allow US nuclear powered warships to make port calls.

BTW, IIRC, ANZUS is also a defence treaty, not a co-mutual declaration of war, so I don't think that holds any water.

 

What's ANZUS (and all the other letters you putt together?)
-ignorant european asking, here- thanks for helping me understand

 

I'd just like to take the opportunity to post a plug for John Pilger's book, A Secret Country, an excellent assessment of US/Australian relations, and a critique of the mainly right wing Australian press.
I've always found it confusing that the right wingers in Australia are called the Liberals, in Britain the liberals are more centre-left than anything else. I suppose it could be worse. Isn't there an extremist right wing party in Australia, which has emerged in the past few years. There was an article about it in the UK press some time ago, and all I can remember is that they were vile racists and somewhat unusually for a party of that type, were led by a woman. Not that I ever had a very high opinion on the Labour leader Paul Keating. Still he deserves some respect simply for annoying all those royalists, in Australia and the UK.

 

Mr Howard - Where is he Taking Australia?

He's taking it "down under"!

*Taps microphone*

Is this thing on?

 

No offence to the Americans here but we're on our way to becoming America's 53rd state (if they'll take us, that is).

What's the 51st and 52nd? Britain and Canada don't count. OK, maybe Britain.

Seriously, this is the first I've ever heard of a refugee issue in Australia. However, I am aware of the policies of Mr. Howard, and I do not support them. He's just like Tony Blair, in my opinion.

What's ANZUS (and all the other letters you putt together?)

My educated guess is that it's the Australia New Zealand United States Treaty.

 

Actually, that is incorrect. The Australian did a poll in America asking people whether...

jediguy, that poll was hosted in America. Of course we are maintaining good relations with America, it is the rest of the world I am talking about here...

No offence to the Americans here but we're on our way to becoming America's 53rd state (if they'll take us, that is)...

I reckon...

We actually have a obligation to help America in times of war. It's called the ANZUS treaty, it is the reason why we went to both Korea and Vietnam.

Kit, I am all for the ANZUS treaty, but treaty or not, I don't believe it is neccessary for us, or America, to attack Iraq. And no offence, but would America do the same for us? They know that they have enough firepower to blast Iraq off the face of the planet, Australian support or not.

And it has been dead in the water since New Zealand started refusing to allow US nuclear powered warships to make port calls...

I don't blame them.

Seriously, this is the first I've ever heard of a refugee issue in Australia. However, I am aware of the policies of Mr. Howard, and I do not support them. He's just like Tony Blair, in my opinion.

The refugee issue has been around for ages... Even where I live, in Darwin, they have one. It's a vile place... One of the Afghan children asked a visiting doctor on Mother's Day: "Don't you have any flowers in Australia?"

... I dunno about you, but I burst into tears when I heard that.

Also... It would do his reputation in Australia good if he would just Apologise...

- Blue

 

*reads the posts thoughtfully and decides to say something a bit later about it*

 

The entire refugee thing, and the recent issue with the Tampa (sp?) definitely shocked a lot of people.

New Zealand was facing something similar during our last election, when one MP was campaigning on the grounds of reducing immigration, but the majority of people saw it as racism.

As for the whole ANZUS break-down, I think, historically, Australia has always been far quicker to agree with the US on international issues than New Zealand ... I don't know why. You'd think, New Zealand, being the smaller country, would have far more to gain by keeping relations as good as possible with the US.

 

The ANZUS treaty has not been negated because of New Zealand's refusal to allow nuclear warships into their ports. New Zealand has been suspended from the alliance. Australia and the U.S. still keep to their obligations, sharing intelligence, allowing American military bases on our soil, and our militaries still have war games together.

 

Compared to Keating, Howard is a breath of fresh air.

EDIT: Had a huge rant fest but decided better of it.

The first comment says enough!

 

*reads the posts thoughtfully and decides to say something a bit later about it*

You do that.

New Zealand was facing something similar during our last election, when one MP was campaigning on the grounds of reducing immigration, but the majority of people saw it as racism.

Sure, it's a way of reducing immigration, but it's not done in the nicest manner... They sacrifice everything to come here, at least they should be welcomed...

The ANZUS treaty has not been negated because of New Zealand's refusal to allow nuclear warships into their ports. New Zealand has been suspended from the alliance. Australia and the U.S. still keep to their obligations, sharing intelligence, allowing American military bases on our soil, and our militaries still have war games together.

I have no problem with the military alliance... 'tis just I oppose the war on Iraq. I don't believe it is America's right to barge in and take control - who knows how many innocent Iraqis would be killed? Mr Bush is waging a war against terror over there in Afghanistan... He said civillian deaths would be kept to a minimum. But they don't seem to be doing a very good job, do they? They bombed a wedding, for crying out loud!!

On the Topic of Refugees
These refugees bypass and stop in how many countries before they pay big $$$$ to people smugglers to travel to our secluded North. I'm tired of the "there's no Embassy" argument as if they can't make it the nearest country with one HOW THE HELL did they make it to one of the most distant countries in the world?

a) Australia is huge. So of course they are going to want in.
b) There is no war going on in Australia. Conflict is rare here.
c) Australia is generally a well fed country... As opposed to some third world country that they could flee to.

While I'm sure there are millions of genuine Refugees out there a lot of these are NOT, purely based on the amount of countries they bypass to get to Australia. They seem to be quite picky as to which safe haven they choose.

Think about it. You would be as well.

As far as detention centres
When my parents immigrated here they where put in Hostels, meaning small 1 room fibro huts with several families living in the same space seperated by thin fibro walls,there was no seperate water available to each hut, community toilets and showers
and no air conditioning (something alot of our own children still don't have in their schools)and they where there for years on end. These Refugees enjoy FREE housing in Airconditioning the Internet, FREE schooling, FREE feeding, FREE swing sets and playgrounds & what do they do withit BURN IT and destroy it and then attack hard working, tax paying Australian Citizins who job it is guard them.

Oh, come ON. They wouldn't just do a thing like that for nothing. Think about it. Would you? I certainly wouldn't without provokation.(sp?) And just when did your parents arrive in Australia?

Read these.

"Broadcast: 27/03/2002
Detention centres under medical spotlight
The treatment of asylum seekers in detention is once again under scrutiny tonight. Lateline has uncovered a case in which a young mother at Sydney's Villawood Detention Centre is said to have almost died because of inadequate medical care. The 24-year-old woman was suicidal and suffering from two severe infections, when two independent doctors assessed her yesterday. She was finally hospitalised last night, but her 10-month-old baby remains in Villawood.
---------
Compere: Tony Jones
Reporter: Margot O'Neill

MARGOT O'NEILL: The young first-time mother was diagnosed with post-natal depression by a senior psychiatrist who visited Villawood unofficially last December.
But it was only yesterday that Dr Louise Newman was able to gain official access and she was appalled by what she found.
DR LOUISE NEWMAN, PSYCHIATRIST: It was really quite shocking the extent to which her condition had deteriorated over a short time.
MARGOT O'NEILL: The young mother was in a wheelchair, suffering fr

 

My Parents moved here in the 60's
NOT THAT LONG AGO!
Now your going to tell me I'm not a true Australian because I'm first Gen.

You're such a Lefty,
These people Bypass dozens of peaceful "Free"
societies. War rare here. REALLY I never knew(What do you think your living in the only country that doesn't have a War)
Your a Joker buddy

Your kidding yourself that these people haven't broken the Law. These people are held in detention UNTIL their case of being a genuine refugee is proven. proven refugees are not detained they can live freely in Australia on limited Visa's, but these people choose to enter illegally and have no ID to prove their place of residence or situation.

They are pushing in and thus restricting the amounts of genuine proven refugees that go through the system.

Blue

PS: Tell me you've been in one of the Hostels I talked about that LEGAL immigrants had to stay in they are a lot worse then these detention centres.

 

No I'm not, Australians are Australians, no matter what corner of the globe their background comes from.

And be careful what you say about lefties around me... I actually like to think of myself as one. But if a Government is getting a distress call, it should bloody well have to answer it.

I never said this is not the only country without wars. You have to look at the other points. Stop editing. You just screwed up the point of my last post.

And at least the "LEGAL" immigrants are treated with all the rights of an Australian citizen, good, bad, or otherwise.

- Blue

 

Yeah put your beanie back on and hop in your combi.

LEGAL immigrants are treated like Australian citizens because they are mmmm... whats the word?








LEGAL
thats it.

I Edited my first post because I dicided to withdraw from making this thread too intense
and leave it with the Keating, Howard issue.
NOT to disturb your post sorry about that!

But no you had to go copy and paste didn't you

 

Since you like quoting News headlines, how about posting the one about the Supposed Refugee from "Afghanastan" who was living freely in Sydney who's family was in a detention centre, The Family or part thereof escaped (with the help of some of your Anarchy induced lefty friends)was captured and then we found out he lied and they are from "Pakistan" NOT REFUGEES.

Deport me thinks

 

Isn't there an extremist right wing party in Australia, which has emerged in the past few years. There was an article about it in the UK press some time ago, and all I can remember is that they were vile racists and somewhat unusually for a party of that type, were led by a woman.

Ah yes, that'd be the One Nation party led by the infamous Pauline Hanson. The media actually blew her and her statements out of proportion though she never got much support and has now basically sunk out of the public's view. Phew.

About the Detention centres, i agree that they are not all sweetness and light. However, surely if they've come from war zones or famine-ridden countries, then anything has to be better.

And as for the Tampa crisis - the big deal was that they were supposed to go to the nearest port which was in Indonesia but instead disobeyed internation laws and headed for Australia and did not turn around and head for Indonesia when the government ordered them to. If they'd done that there would not have been such a big fuss.

LittleJedi

 

Oooh political arguements can get heated but nice to see that we've managed to remain civil (so far).

One of the most annoying things that I've noted personally, is that wrt the whole immigration issue, the people who criticise the refugees (again, this is just a PERSONAL observation amongst my migrant parents' friends) are mostly migrants... my own parents included. That whole "queue jumping" business is hogwash, IMHO when, in the instance of Afghanistan, we, IE Australian and the American military, were bombing the cr** out of the country at the time. I personally just object to the fact that Howard and the Liberal party, and the spine-less Labour party subcumbed to the lowest common denominator, xenophobia, in order to secure the last election. Pathetic, but, IMHO it would take a true statesman/person to perform the difficult task of actually presenting a solution to the problem than resorting to standard knee-jerk reactions... then again there ain't such a person around in Australian politics at present as I see it..

BTW doesn't anyone think that its utterly bizarre that we're selling WHEAT to the same administration that we're going to fight (? Feb next year).

C_B

 

As far as the Tampa is concerned it should have turned towards Indonesia (as stated in the above post)but also the few "Illegals"(the ring leaders) that threated the Captain with self harm, to turn to Christmas Island should have been charged with Piracy or Hijacking at sea.

 

oops doubled up


Yes the Wheat thing seems weird....

 

In my honest opinion, they should just send those illegal immigrants back to where they came from and end all of this fuss. We don't want them. Even many of the apparent legal ones cause too much trouble as it is.

Please don't call me a racist because of my opinion, that's just what I think.