Speculation Mr. Plinkett's review of Episode VII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Bib Fartuna, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Nope, I like parody. I'll even write it. I have a problem with stereotypes and sexism. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.
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  2. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Not a threat it's a suggestion that you contain your urge to insult me. Don't take it personal when people voice their dislike of the prequels. It doesn't mean you're stupid. It doesn't mean you have bad taste. It doesnt mean we're all laughing at you. It also doen't mean I'm some film fascist. It doesn't mean I'm an elitist. It doesn't mean I need to insult people who like the films. In the end both Lucas and many others responsible for the prequels know there is a lot, and I mean a lot, of us who think the prequels were a let down. The problem has been fixed. Moving forward. Lucas is no longer controlling every aspect of the new series so.... hopefully we get better writing, better directing and better acting.
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  3. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Because if we laugh at the sexist it discredits sexism.

    At != With
  4. darthgator1217 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2005
    star 2
    I don't get all of this. The plot of TPM was clear. Grade school history books provide info. about the effects of blockades and how wars have been waged due to taxes. The fact that some lame reviewer can't figure it out does not validate his claim.
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  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LOL wut? I insulted you? Where?

    Sounds like a threat to me regardless. What are you planning to do? Beat me up through your computer screen?

    And you got the idea that I'm concerned about that--where exactly?

    LOL. Right.

    Okie-day then. You made a post about "math" and "science", I asked you for proof of this "math" and "science," which you have not provided. What's the problem exactly?

    And you are aware that you can loathe the prequels without qualifying it with the idea that "a lot" of people agree with you, right? But if you do decide to qualify it with that idea, you can expect people to ask you for proof beyond "likes" and "dislikes" on YouTube--and you shouldn't get so bent out of shape when they do. ;)

    I'd say sometimes that's true, but it depends on the circumstances.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 26, 2013
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  6. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    The whole concept of parody and even humor itself is to make fun of stereotypes and racism/sexism/whathaveyou...which is exactly what RLM was doing.
    V-2 likes this.
  7. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Why do you find Anakin's behavior problematic but not Han's?

    I'm asking this seriously because the only time that I can think of where Anakin does something inappropriate towards Padmé (that is uncommented on) is when he looks at her again after she has asked him to stop. Which is certainly impolite of him to do, but if she was really bothered by it, she could have easily requested a different Jedi to protect her. If anything, I've always taken her discomfort to be more due to her attraction to him, rather than finding him "rapey."

    Now the choke is a different story -- that's clearly completely wrong behavior. But the thing is, the narrative never tries to present Anakin as in the right for doing so. It's clearly presented as an evil action and demonstrates just how far he's fallen.

    With Han's behavior, though, he not only stares at Leia, but touches her and invades her personal space specifically after she has told him to stop. And this is made worse by the fact that Leia falls in love with him and his behavior is presented as ideal. That, I would say, is far more problematic in that it reinforces such negative power dynamics between men and women.

    Anakin's behavior towards Padmé is extremely, extremely poor by the end of ROTS. But the narrative never pretends otherwise. It's not meant to be an ideal relationship.

    On the other hand, though, Anakin's treatment of Padmé in AOTC is far and away better than Han's treatment of Leia in ESB. And yet you're saying that the PT is in the wrong here, which I don't quite understand.

    Regardless, I already know what RLM will say about Episode VII: anything good will be the result of JJ Abrams and everything bad will be Lucas' fault. There you go, I've just saved you two hours of your life that would have otherwise been spent watching his review. No need to thank me. :p
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Which would work well, again, if people didn't use his stereotypes as a serious argument against the love story.

    "The love story didn't work because no woman acts like that/no 19-year-old man acts like that! Here's proof! Mr. Plinkett says so!"

    If I thought Plinkett were just making fun of stereotypes about women and 19-year-old men, I would laugh at him too. But some people who dislike the prequels take that **** seriously.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 26, 2013
  9. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah but he raises some good questions. Naboo is a planet that looks just as lush (if not more lush) than the Earth and it has this massive energy generator doo-hickey right underneath the planet's surface. What good is a blockade going to do? Why didn't Padme just have the Jedi testify for her? How did Padme manage to overthrow a Chancellor with one vote even though the Senate really doesn't seem to care about Naboo and sides with the Trade Federation anyway? What's wrong with your faaaaace?
    Last edited by windu4, Jan 26, 2013
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  10. Norminator Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2009
    star 1
    To show that San Francisco is generally perceived to be, and for the most part probably is, a liberal town.
    I come from a christian country, with a state church and everything, but "X is a christian country" doesn't mean it's an attempt to eliminate or invalidate the religions/views of atheists, agnostics, muslims, hindus etc. It means that the majority of people in the country are registered as christian. I'm not religious, and never once even thought of the idea of being insulted by that statement.
    I don't like going around looking for reasons to get upset.
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  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    And if you're assuming that I do, there is no point in us having a conversation.
  12. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    I really feel like you're nitpicking at this point because the romance subplot to ESB is one of the most critically acclaimed subplots in one of the most critically acclaimed movies in cinema. Everytime someone raises a point about Anakin and Padme's romance somebody has to say that "Why did Han get away with it?!". For one thing he really didn't get away with anything because again: It's a romantic story about a pirate with a heart of gold romancing a damsel in distress who really isn't in distress. It's a cliched love story but the characters are so fleshed out, the movie is so well directed and the actors are so good at their acting that you don't really notice.


    As a matter of fact it's not even that cliched. It actually created a cliche/movie trope that is used to this very day. To discredit Han and Leia's romantic entanglement would be to entangle literally dozens of other movies that follow their example.
    V-2 likes this.
  13. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    @anakinfansince1983
    I honestly think it's up to you to show how there isn't a general feeling that the prequels were inferior to the originals, as yours seems the most extraordinary claim.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  15. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I didn't dodge anything. Quote the post in question and tell me with a straight face you think I was being serious. This post here you quoted was simply me throwing the PC thought police tactic back in your face. Why don't you try, in lieu of throwing insults at people, explain why detailed negative critics of the prequels are wrong. I've given an extremely brief critique in the post you quoted here, start with that. This is my basic position concerning the Vader Back story:

    http://mythicscribes.com/analysis/star-wars-prequels/
    V-2 likes this.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm supposed to care about what this "mythic scribes" site says?

    Nice dodge though, on the part of both you and @V-2. I never made the claim that "most people" like the prequels, because I am capable of owning my opinion without claiming that "most people" agree with me.

    I've asked you to back up your claim that "math" and "science" proves that "most people" dislike the prequels and if you were actually able to provide it, I'd be fine with that, it wouldn't change my opinion of the prequels at all. What I dislike about your point is the sheer arrogance of claiming that "most people" agree with you, with the insinuation that those of us who disagree, are stupid.

    I'm still waiting for you to show where I insulted you. I'm interested.

    And LOL at both of you acting like I'm in love with the prequels or find them flawless. Did you miss the part where I refuse to watch the last half of ROTS?
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 26, 2013
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  17. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    anakinfansince1983

    This is the post, here^ . When I ended the post with "it's like....factual and stuff ;) " I thought that would be a pretty obvious indication I wasn't being serious. On a serious note - as I type this I'm realizing that I'm actually having this discussion and this has shifted my thoughts to another topic, the topic of what the hell am I doing on a Saturday night and 7:30pm on a Star wars forum in this thread having this discussion with you. It will be a sisyphean task, an endless debate. A pointless debate. Absurdism at it's finest. Next up I'll be proving that green is green!
    V-2 likes this.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    OK, what? That post you quoted didn't even come from me. I have no idea what you're talking about.

    And yeah, if posting here is so absurd, by all means go do something else. I agree it would be an endless and pointless debate, as you're not selling me on the idea that Plinkett is wonderful no matter how many blog posts you link.
  19. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about critical acclaim. That's not an argument. If you have a response, make one, but don't try to use consensus as an argument because it won't work. Neither argumentum ad populum nor argumentum ad verecundiam will.

    What I"m saying is simply this -- you are calling Anakin's behavior "rapey" and saying that the PT romance reinforces negative ideas about male-female relationships. I am asking you to show how this is so. The "look" I will certainly give you -- Anakin shouldn't have done that. But that hardly makes him a rapist or even "rapey". I'm asking you to submit to me evidence that the PT glorifies abusive relationships or portrays the negative aspects of the Anakin-Padmé romance in an ideal or positive light.

    I am contrasting this with the Han and Leia romance because this is a romance often held as ideal, which I have serious issues with. My basic premise is this: there's a very, very powerful undercurrent of "no means yes" to the Han-Leia relationship that I am deeply uncomfortable with. Because to tell you the truth, that, more than anything, is "rapey."

    And yes, Han "gets away with it" because Leia falls in love with him precisely because he forcefully kisses her -- pressing her up against the wall. Or when he holds onto her after she specifically tells him to let go. ESB's romance shows Leia falling in love with Han precisely because of these actions. And that, I take issue with. I don't mind if films portray unhealthy relationships, but it must be commented on by the narrative -- which it is in the case of Padmé and Anakin (the Force choke). In contrast, Han's poor behavior towards Leia is not contextualized in such a manner. Rather, it is idealized.

    And yes, I will readily entangle other films. Han and Leia are based on Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara from Gone With the Wind. But their's was a deeply, deeply abusive and unhealthy relationship. However, unlike Han and Leia, this is commented upon and they don't live happily ever after. Or did you forget the ending and the famous line of that film? ;)

    Don't make appeals to other films, to tradition, to popularity, or to critics. Make arguments, and then we can have a discussion.:) And I mean that in the friendliest sense (I'm well aware that my post can come across as rather harsh, which isn't my intention).
  20. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Why did you refuse to watch the last half of ROTS? Now you have my attention. I'll get to the grass thing later. Why? Why refuse to watch the last half of ROTS?
    V-2 likes this.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    And

    =D=^:)^
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LOL. Endless and pointless debate, remember?
  23. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    There can be a ton of reasons. I mean, how many things are there that are provable as being absolutely universally true, with no known exceptions? The laws of physics, and... not a whole lot else. If we don't act on understandings that are generally, but not universally true, then we are cut off from huge areas of knowledge and wisdom. Entire disciplines, and very important ones, are based on that kind of knowledge - psychology, economics, law, business, diplomacy, political science, rhetoric, demographics, sociology, archaeology, marketing, literary and historical analysis... it's a long list.

    For example, "San Francisco is a liberal town" is knowledge that could affect spending patterns in an election cycle: A Republican candidate for statewide office might decide that money that he might spend buying campaign ads in San Francisco would be essentially a waste of money better spent in a swing area like San Diego or Modesto. Or it might convince someone who was thinking of starting up a liberal talk radio station, a gay bar, or a vegan restaurant that San Francisco would be a better place to try that than, say, Fresno.

    All kinds of useful questions can be answered with understandings of things that are generally, but not universally, true. Why do Apple products sell well in Japan? Why has setting up a modern secular democracy in Afghanistan proven so difficult? Why do rural counties vote consistently Democratic, and urban counties vote consistently Republican? Would running a revived version of Simon & Simon be likely to get better ratings on the Hallmark Channel, or on Spike TV? What do I need to keep in mind if I want to successfully expand an international fast food chain into the Middle East? Or if I want to successfully expand the same chain into China? All these are important questions - questions on which wars and elections can be won and lost; questions that billions of dollars depend on knowing the answer to. And all are based on understandings of generalities.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Jan 26, 2013
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  24. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I know it was me I quoted. You know, where I jokingly said Redlettermedia is like science. You've been nit picking that post of mine so in turn I finally quoted it to give you some perspective....ya know, to show you I wasn't being serious when I said Redlettermedia is science. Now, please explain why you refused to watch the last half of ROTS. Thanks.
    V-2 likes this.
  25. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    I never said their relationship was perfect. The point I was making is that you're claiming that their relationship is somehow on par or "just as bad" as Anakin and Padme's just to disprove my point that Anakin and Padme's relationship was unhealthy. You're dragging the OT into this in an attempt to devalue what I was saying. Which isn't going to work. Han and Leia are a non-factor in this discussion.