MS Update MS Update March 15, 2006

I'm thinking more of people that post here, going there, and trying to predicate(yes, I'm aware that's not a real word) on underaged users.

 

Any site you choose to put in a post, PM, bio, or signature as a link applies.

 

Thanks Sape. The idea that you and MS are turning a blind eye to "e-predators" is just too bizzare for me to believe. I have always had faith that you would respond to these allegations and set the record straight. If there is an "e-predator" on this site, then thats one thing and I have every faith you and MS will sort it out, but I hope the exceptionally serious allegation that the administration is turning a "blind eye" to this behaviour, will now withdrawn by those that made these seemingly spurious claims.

 

Where exactly does it say that admin or mods have turned a "blind eye", as you say?

For the record, Sape, Roo and gabe have all been responsive on the issue. I trust that they have the best interest of our members at heart.

 

They should have the user's, particularly the underage user's best interests at heart. As long as the user that is being harassed actually makes a personal complaint to a mod, manager, or admin, then all should be dealt with short and swiftly. It always has the couple of times that I've had to make complaints. The people I know, that have had to complain about harassment, have had their complaints addressed quickly as well.

I think the only problem that the admin may have, is deciphering what is intentionally improper, and what may just be a misinterpretation. The user notes are there for a purpose, and I'd imagine any user racking up a few harassment complaints would be out of here quickly.

 

I'm posting now as a mother, not a moderator, and I assure that if I EVER suspected someone was preying on other users, ESPECIALLY younger ones, I would not hesitate to take action. I have two children that frequent these boards, and there is no way I would put them in jeapordy. I'm the kind of mom who even checks out their "My Space" pages and they know it.

 

Wow. Just? wow. I am both disappointed and relieved that I was not shown this thread until tonight.

oldjedinurse: While I didn?t agree with all of your concerns (to each their own, right?), your concerns were eloquently stated and I am appalled and embarrassed by the way you have been treated by this thread. Please accept my apology and support. I am so sorry you went out on a limb and were? torpedoed.

TKL & Lex: Goodness knows that we have had our differences in the past, but WELL SPOKEN. Bravo. Excellent arguments, sans the circular reasoning, and extremely well organized.

ASG: Let me be the first to welcome you to fanfic. Post you story, PM me, I will read it AND comment. Better yet, I am willing to accept you as a padawan despite my busy schedule. PM me and we?ll discuss your first assignment. I think the droid self realizing love story is a great idea. I can?t wait to hear from you!

KnightWriter:

Maybe you can come visit fan fic sometime, too. Your first assignment will be to read fan fic TOS. Then we will get you a writing assignment. PM me about finding a good master to help you brush up on your writing skills.

Doesn?t look like you wasted much time here. You are getting really good with the insult thing.

Thank God.

On e-predators: I don?t have all of the information that I think I need in this specific case to make an intelligent comment, however, like MamaVader allow me to comment as the mother of two young children.

If a user feels uneasy, something is already wrong. Done. Enough. Finished. It merits investigation, at least. Aggressive investigation.

As a user, I want to be on my toes to protect my thirteen year old padawans and all of the other kids on the fanfic and art boards (my haunts) as well. Let me at?em.

Just my two cents worth.

 

If a user feels uneasy, something is already wrong. Done. Enough. Finished. It merits investigation, at least. Aggressive investigation.


And we certainly do this. I'm a mother myself, I can't imagine someone thinking we don't listen to stuff like this. We can't unless individuals come forward, though, I'm afraid. Always, always, always feel free to let us know if you feel uncomfortable talking to someone. And never hestiate to tell someone that something they've said makes you feel uncomfortable.


And the TOS is the TOS all over the forums, not just Fan Fiction. The Fan Ficiton FAQ, which is what I think you're referring to, has been an ever-changing document in Fan Fiction, but the TOS remains the same.

 

Maybe you can come visit fan fic sometime, too. Your first assignment will be to read fan fic TOS. Then we will get you a writing assignment. PM me about finding a good master to help you brush up on your writing skills.


I've written Fan Fiction before, and my first JC posts were in Fan Fiction. I helped JediGaladriel with several policy issues, and have offered my thoughts and support to many Fan Fiction moderators since then. I'm familiar enough with what goes on in Fan Fiction to make the comments I've made. As for my writing skills, I'm certain I don't need any assistance, but thank you for offering.

It baffles me that anyone would be concerned that e-predators could be allowed to survive after being detected or even just suspected here. This is a site that has always had conservative ownership and administrative policies that follow suit, though it's certainly not quite what it once was. Still, I know the administration, and Fan Fiction moderators in particular, take the safety of all members seriously.

As a moderator, I helped investigate a case of sexual harassment, which led to a lengthy ban for the instigator. That was over two years ago, and I don't doubt that even more harsh action would take place if evidence came to light that warranted it.

In short, trust in the administration to do what is right, because they both know what they're doing and have a vested personal interest in the matter (be it children of their own or a common concern for the welfare of children in general).

 

Quite honestly, how did this whole e-predator discussion get restarted in the first place? I thought rhonderoo cut it off awhile ago...

And anyway, isn't it a sort of non-issue? We all know the Mods (many of whom are parents) are checking assiduously for that kind of thing, and it's none of our business anyway. Can we stop wasting time with declarations that a) 'the Mods aren't doing their job against e-predators' or b) saying 'yes they are'?

We know they are. Everyone knows they are. It's a smokescreen issue.

Elena

 

This is against my better judgment, but?Might I make a suggestion? It seems to me this issue of being sent unwanted PMs can be solved rather easily without ever having to involve a bureaucracy. Every chat program I know has a "ban user" function which specifically prevents one user from contacting another user. Since most of the code is already written for this function (the 5 PM limit), it would be a fairly simple matter to create a button that allows a user to prevent receiving a PM from someone they're not interested in receiving PMs from. If the user is particularly concerned, they can raise the issue to the Mods, Admins, etc.

Side note: Darth_Lex brought up an excellent point about how things can easily be misconstrued by readers. The policy to protect the privacy of other users, ostensibly to prevent them from being embarrassed leads to a lot of conflict. If I PM a mod on an issue that I think is ban-worthy and the person doesn't get banned (which I may or may not ever know because I'm not told), then either I don't know what is really ban-worthy (and therefore what is acceptable behavior or not) or the Mods blew me off. What's more, since I don't know the details of their decision-making process, when I see them ban somebody else for what seems, on the surface, to be a less offense, one could easily believe that some people are being treated differently than others. I think it's helpful to understand how these attitudes can arise rather than imply that someone having them is being unreasonable.

In short, trust in the administration to do what is right, because they both know what they're doing and have a vested personal interest in the matter (be it children of their own or a common concern for the welfare of children in general).

That is what we all hope and believe. We want to trust in the administration to do what is right. But there is no oversight for the administration (not that I'm suggesting there should be) and no one in the administration, to my knowledge, is voted into his/her position nor can they be ousted. The grievance procedure seems pointless if any rational arguments presented about members of the administration are summarily dismissed.

I have never had any major run-ins with anyone in the administration and I don't plan for that to change. I am merely pointing out that the members of this thread would probably do well to understand where complainers are coming. I'd go further to say that those who are complaining would probably do well to understand why they are being dismissed, rather than raging against it.

 

I like your block a user function, however it would be required so infrequently that it doesn't really warrant coding. Furthermore an "unblock" user funtion would have to be coded too. Only zs can do it, and I'm not sure it would rate highly on his to-do list.


Regarding transparency in mod actions and bannings etc. We don't wash people's dirty laundry in public - it's entirely inappropriate. If you report something to a mod, and you don't feel it's been dealt with properly then please contact an admin. If that still doesn't get you the service you want then send a PM to sapes. (Please note, I said 'service', not 'result').

 

Roo, KW, & elana:

That was not a "smokescreen" issue.

It was something that is truly a concern for all of us (yourselves included, I am guessing) and I thought I would communicate my support of keeping child predators off. I very carefully did not say mods were not doing their job. I did make sure I said that I didn't feel I had enough info on the case in question and so did not comment.

Malkie:

I am a grown woman who is not shy about saying what I think, once my mind is decided. I say this to help you understand my personality, as we are not aquainted. Having said that - there have been times when I told users to stop activity that was making me uncomfortable and it took a bit to get it through their thick skulls. My point? In cases like this, happening one time is too many and is serious enough to explore all possible routes to solution.

I think Souderwan's idea is wonderful, myself. I would have loved to have that option in the past. And, if you think about it, it would mean less hard feelings against the mods if an accused harrasser is innocent of harmful intent. The ban would always come from the user, not the admin. If there was truly a predator personality out there, this would highlight them (in theory).

I propose that if you don't have to sift through all the seemingly false alarms because of the Block User Function, you would have more time to look into the reports you still receive ande begin to discern patterns.

 

There is a form of 'Block harrasing users' in place, it's a ban. People have been banned for sending unwanted and haraasing PMs, and in all honesty, it does require some effort on the part of the person being harrassed. Mods and admins don't go poking into PM's unless asked/sitiution warrents it. If a user is being harrassed, they can copy/paste the entirety of the PM (to/from datestamps are usefull) and send it to an admi/manager of their choice. IF for some reason, the user feels uncomfortable working with a mod/set of mods, they can send the PM to a manager on another board.

I would really be saddened if a user thought that they could not find someone to turn to in such an event, but on the other hand, the Mods need people to speak up.

 

Zonoma:

First off, roo and KW didn't say anything. I did. I fail to see why you addressed them as well as me.

Secondly, commnunicating your support of keeping e-predators off is all very well and good, but it is quite obviously a non-issue. rhonderoo notified us that the issue was closed on page 13, so no one should be talking about it. More than that, if you didn't feel you had enough information in the first place, why did you comment on the issue at all?

Additionally, the whole e-predator line of conversation has taken a turn for the hysterical. As I saw it (not necessarily how it was meant) it was brought up as another supposed reason the admin and mods weren't doing their job regarding user interactions. They obviously are - no one who has actually suffered from harassment has stepped up and said, "The admin blew me off when this user was stalking me." They're obviously doing their job, so there's no need to continue to talk about it. The only purpose it serves is to censure the Mods over something they've done well.

Souderwan, it's a nice idea, but to be honest, it seems like more trouble than it's worth. *shrugs* The current system seems to work well - why change it?

Elena

 

The mods cannot, in good conscience, take care of some of the things that make people uncomfortable. Case in point:

I am an adult and, quite honestly, a shameless flirt. When this user flirted back, I didn't mind at first. Not in the least. There came a point, though, where an invisible line was crossed and I wondered what I had gotten myself into.

This elusive line was not in violation of TOS

- or even general decency, given the flow of our PMs. I didn't feel comfortable going to the mods because I didn't know if he deserved a ban or a warning and was pretty sure he was just playing. HOWEVER, I desperately wanted to not talk to this person anymore. Short of saying:

"Dear xxxx, I know I have been flirting but I don't want to receive PMs from you anymore. Sorry that this is so sudden."

What could I have done?

If I were a mod, then I would have told me that I brought it on myself and there was nothing the mods could do. It was fairly obvious through the course of our PM dialogue that I was flirting, too.

As a married woman, I would have loved the block user function THEN. Especially when he didn't get my first request to "tone it down"... it was very uncomfortable for me and I do not shy from inevitable confrontations.

My questions are these:

Where are the lines?

Are they the same for every person?

Who is to tell me that I can't change my mind and feel uncomfortable with someone I was previously fine with?

AND does my discomfort always merit HIS banning?

Should I have to continue to have my PM box flooded from the user in question because I recongnize that they don't deserve banning and am unwilling to get a mod involved?

Is there a solution?

EDIT:

elena: We were posting together.

Roo and KW also commented on the e stalker thing, as did you. If I latched onto your phrasing when doing a general reply, that is the nature of the debate.

I commented because I can. Why did you? I'm guessing for the same reason.

 

A reminder that after FIVE unopened PMs, another user's PM will automatically be rejected. That might be an option for those who do not feel an open confrontation is warranted or necessary.

 

THAT is excellent information to have, MamaVader. Thank you.

 

Actually, that is exactly what you should have done. At least when I was a mod/admin, the general guideline on harassing PMs (which are a violation of the TOS) was that once a person asked the other one one to contact them, if they continued, it was considered harassing, and was bannable. It doesn't matter if the first user "brought it upon himself" or not.

When I stepped down as an admin, I actually got several harassing PMs from different users who didn't care for some of my actions as a mod. At least two of them were banned for harrassment. It was even bad enough that it was brought up in the MS update thread.

The TOS specifically says:

User agrees not to post material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, misleading, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, that otherwise violates any law, or that encourages conduct constituting a criminal offense. In compliance with the Federal Trade Commission's Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998 (COPPA), you must be at least 13 years of age to use this system. Also, as a general guideline, all users here should respect one another's opinions and beliefs. User also agrees not to post spoilers regarding the upcoming Star Wars prequel in any forum outside of those specifically labelled as allowing spoilers (this includes posting spoilers of any type in your profile and signature). This applies to private messages as well.

While you might handle it differently as a mod, that would not be in accordance with longstanding MS policy.

Kimball Kinnison

 

"Dear xxxx, I know I have been flirting but I don't want to receive PMs from you anymore. Sorry that this is so sudden."

What could I have done?

Kimball is right. That sentence at the top is a good first step. Why be hesitant to ask someone to leave you alone if that's what you truly desire? Especially if the conversation has been two way? It is certainly within your rights and entirely reasonable to say, "Okay, I've gone too far and we should stop", or "I'm uncomfortable with your PM, please don't send me anymore."

If I were a mod, then I would have told me that I brought it on myself and there was nothing the mods could do. It was fairly obvious through the course of our PM dialogue that I was flirting, too.

Certainly there's something we can do. If you've done the first step, and made your wishes known and the person PM's you again, let us know. If it's them saying "I'm sorry, I'll stop", we'll probably just warn them to leave it at that. If it is another pm that makes you uncomfortable then we'll take the appropriate steps to stop it.

 

In the only case about which I've been PMed concerning a user being uncomfortable with another user, she simply asked him to stop PMing her and he abided by her wishes. That IS the easiest first stop, but for those who do not like even that sort of confrontation, you do have the option of ignoring their PMs. Of course, that might not be the BEST way to handle it, just merely one of the ways.

 

I do have a question regarding PMs. Typically, the rule seems to be that if you wouldn't post it, then don't PM it. However, I have been in a couple of situations where PM is used specifically because one user wants information from another user that CANNOT be posted because of the TOS.

Example: I have shared fanfic links requested by others, and received fanfic/art links that were requested by me, that could not be posted to the boards because of the TOS. However, these links did not contain anything illegal - most were PG-13, a few on the soft side of R, and always solicited. One of mine was no worse than RotS and only a shade too gory for the boards (in fact, the same scene WAS posted as part of a story, after being edited to lower the violence and injury detail level.)

Is this allowed, or not? (I suppose we could use offsite email, but for solicited information that doesn't break laws, PMs make more sense and are much more convenient.) I could see it becoming a problem if a user requests information then later gets angry at the information giver and uses it against him/her, or if a user requests offsite information specifically to get someone in trouble.

Not that this would happen often but I'd like to cover my rear end.

 

As you migh have noticed, I said I like the idea. However, I also pointed out that we have no control over board coding. Furthermore, there is a flaw in your suggestion, ie "happening one time is too many", because it would have to have happened once for you to use the block function.

Just to repeat myself for clarity. I like the idea, but we cannot modify board code.

Exactly.

 

Eleventh Guard:

I *think* (and by all means, correct me if I'm wrong) that the mods have ways of tracking PMs to correctly discern a situation. Just make sure that all sent PM chapters are requested via PM to cover your rear. I plan on it when I finally get it written.

EDIT:

Malkie: I am considering a reply, not ignoring you.

 

No, only the admins can check your PMs, and they wouldn't unless given a very good reason to do so. Typically PMs are not checked unless a user makes an accusation, at which point an admin will log into your account and read your PMs. Should anything inappropriate be found it will be treated in exactly the same way as if you had posted it anywhere on the boards.