My 2 fav subjects- Starwars and Religion

This is long but you should read it.

Me and my family were talking about a group of Hindus. (kinda like Calvinists are to Christianity) I don't really like them but I don't know why. I don't even know anything about there religion. Well, they are Hindus like me but different. They seem to pray more to preists than God.

In a book called Bless Me Ultima a young catholic boy is uncertain on his thoughts of religion. His friends believe a gold fish is God. This may sound weird but its not when you read the book. The boy knows that your only supposed to believe in "God" but later comes to think the Christian God is jealous. In Hindusim, though, we are told to respect all relgions. Does this include ppl that pray to humans?

In the discussion w/ my family, we came to the conclsion that no religion is bad and that God is God. Also, you dont say my God because God is everyone's. He is in everyone. I dont want to call God him, but you cant call God an it either.

So what does this have to do with StarWars?

Ok, in Hinduism, God is in everyone, kindof like the Force. Both are said to make life. We (and the ppl in that GFFA) know they exist, but cannot really explain them. The only differance is that the Jedi do not pray to the Force, just respect it. Both are not tools for us to use, but guidance. So would God be mad if ppl began to belive in other ideas than Him?

Im not going to change my religion, and definately not pray to the Force. (even though i am a SW maniac) All I know is that there is some.... thing out there. A "Greater Being". Part of us like God, binding us like the Force. And we're like the Vong, we have evolved and left or forgotten it. Like the Vong say we, or juss me, need to embrace the truths of life. (or to find it) One is pain. Though we should still protect those we can, not kill everyone like the Vong do.

Your comments???

"May the Force be with you"

 

There may be a GOD, there may not be. I don't know. I sincerely doubt that anybody really knows for sure, no matter how much they believe and have convinced themselves that God does indeed exist. Whether he exists or not does not really affect my life at all. I don't hold praying to God in all that much esteem. If you really want to do good then go out and help somebody, feed somebody. Most people cannot do these things and in this world it can be dangerous to do so, they may rob you, but be nice to the people you see everyday. Give them an extra 5 bucks if they need it. Help people out and be friendly. That's better than spending hours praying to God and then being a mean puss. God or no God that's what how I want to live. And if there is a judging God for heaven or whatever, thats how it should be judged, not on how many hours you spent kneeling down in humble prayer. ORGANIZED religion is in my opinion: garbage. Mortals are making the rules and issuing the CHURCH's official feelings, not God. There's no God about it, unless you believe and if you do believe what do you need a Church for. Celebrate your belief by yourself or with others if you want, but most organized religions are just that, organized by man, not God.

"If there was no God, man would invent one to make himself feel better."

 

P.S.

An admin will probably lock this for not being related to Literature.

 

I doubt it will be locked for a while. This forum is not as heavily moderated as others. As for starting religious discussions, the admins are trying to purge the forums of anything pertaining to religion unless it relates to the Force.

 

Interesting. Religion is probably my most-hated subject. Please, someone lock this and stick it in Community or Miscellaneous. I'm sure that a larger, more receptive audience lies in wait.

 

COme on guys, there must be a God. Do you honestly believe that this intricate, complex, Universe could have been created by chance? Or the GFFA? (If it were real, that is)?

 

Be careful- while we're allowed to discuss the Force, religious discussion is banned from this board. Keep this thread civil and related to SW, and the admins may not shut it down.

 

The existance of a God or a Creater is almost impossible to not believe in. What are the odds of our planet Earth being exactly the right distance from the sun? If it was too close we would be a hot house and if it was further away it would be like the polar icecaps. Another thing is the existence of intelligent life. While microscopic organisms may be commonplace on planets like Europa, a massive organism like humans that possesses intelligence is a miracle.

Thats my $0.02 before this thread is locked.

 

what he said /|\
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okie...... ok so i dont think of the force as a religion cause no one prays to it. Also some ppl back the jedi but have their own religions. um but in the movies this guy makes fun of vaders "religion".

and do you think that maybe the force made the sw galaxy? I mean its everywhere. (almost)

 

I'm not going to reiterate anything, but why exactly is religion such a touchy subject? Especially when most of use here read sf and fantasy that deals with some forms of worship. just wondering if anyone wants to explain.

 

i dont think its touchy. I like learning and thinkin bout religion. It focuses on morals. In sw there is the jedi who protect ppl. Its bout good and bad things. For me it juss fits.

 

"I'm not going to reiterate anything, but why exactly is religion such a touchy subject?"

Why? Because the mods feel it creates "animosity" amoung the members.

 

I find voiceing my oppinions about God and religion just makes me a target. I have strong oppinions about both but I don't think it's relevant to SW. No offence to George Lucas and all the other SW ppl who believe in the Force but it's a bunch of baloney. Sure it's awesome to read about, don't get me wrong I love Star Wars and I'm a huge fan but there is no such thing as the Force. My name proves I'm a huge fan cause Corran is a Jedi. I'm not going to say anymore because what I've already said is going to get nasty replys. BTW Tahiri_2, how old are you and where do you live? Sorry but I can't help but hit on SW women, if you don't want me to just let me know.

 

Even though I knew there was no god I would believe. (i guess its juss me)God makes u humble so u kno your not perfect. ok..sw.. Jedi should be modest too. They should realize that the force gave them their talent.
Keiran- I hope everyone knows that the Force isnt real. But i do think that ppl could accomplish more than we are doing. We only use bout 8% of our brains... okie im 15 and live in fl.

 

hmmm if they're going to squash "animosity" then nobody can ever disagree with anyone else. I will concede that straight religion discussion doesn't belong here, but I'd like to see why there seems to be so many atheist sf fans compared to the rest of the world.

 

while i think that it would be prudent of me not to involve myself in this style argument for i always take it a bit too far...i shall enter into discusion because tonight...aw' heck...i just feel like arguing...

Beafet and Lott_Dod...you both use the argument questioning the possibility of such a compex universe coming into existence with our planet so precisely poised to allow for a temperature comfortable to us and able to support life......well...personaly i find that argument to be a little, no offence to you personaly, egotistical...i mean...life survives in the most unlikely of places...why is it that this temperature is so special......i fail to see the problems that life would have in other places with other temperatures...i mean...you only find this temperature range pleasant because you are set up to match it...not the other way around...it was not that this planet came in to being to serve you and to reshape its self to your needs and whims, you Evolved, and adapted, to survive on this planet...were we to have developed (admitedly differently) elsewhere, then we would find that temperature, whether "hot house" or "like the polar icecaps"...just as comfortable...besides...those are very relative terms anyway.........besides...would we be here pondering our existence had we not Evolved into a state capeable of doing so?......you question the odds of our planet existing as such......i am reminded of a story attributed to Physist Richard Fineman(to whom i apologize for butchuring his last name's spelling...)...in said story, he tells a class of his about a vantiy licence plate he just aquired specialy...as it turns out this plate is just like so many others a seemingly random assortment of numbers and letters...but it unique and special...as there is no other one like it.........in the same way...just because we see this planet as special, doesn't mean that the other planets in the galaxy aren't just as unique.........in short, calling a statisitcal likelyhood a miracle doesn't prove the existence of some supposed all powerful creature......a rose by any other name smells just as sweet...but...if you call it some exotic name and triple the price people will line up to pay homage to the "rare" flower never once douting the validity of its new name, and calling this continuance of falsehoods faith.........i apologize for that...but i, jastermereel the soul-free athiest, despise religion...especialy faith based ones......again...i apologize...

In responce to the questions posed in your posts:
Beafet:"Do you honestly believe that this intricate, complex, Universe could have been created by chance?"

Yes...i do...most definately i do...however...by chance of course you exclude in your phrasing all physical rules or factors involved in the possiblity of alternative/parallel universes......that is...unless...by the word "chance" you rename your deity of choice......conversely i ask you, with no obligation to reply attached, do you honestly belive that out there somewhere(or wherever you chose) there is an all seeing, all knowing, all powerful being who is so facinated by you and your fellow worshipers existence, that he would create a planet suited to your needs and an entire galaxy, no...an entire universe to house this planet of cult followers in?...

and Lott_Dod: "What are the odds of our planet Earth being exactly the right distance from the sun?"

Exactly even odds..."our planet" is wherever we live...and we judge the terms behind it being "exactly the right distance from the sun"...and so wherever we develop and evolve...the star(s) we orbit about would be inherantly the right distance...just by our having developed there...

a third time...i apologize for my rudeness...but i find that it can stir up more fleshed out arguments than just asking questions with a tone of disbelief attached(eg. "Do you honestly believe...")...so to all of you listening...in time time this topic has remaining...shall we have a debate?...i for one am fully willing to fill the role of the "devil's" advocate against ye'...

 

ok.. i got an A in dibate..

u kno taht ppl have proof. In hinduism ppl found Krishna's island-city that drowned under water.

and ppl remember Jesus and how he helped ppl.

ppl have talked to "God" even the vong. hehe

I belive. He saved my aunt. Its hard to belive and i dought but religion is not just praying. Religion is culture, they way you live, they way you think.

If you religion is being a Sith your evil and hurt ppl.

Also it control what u eat. Im a vegetarian and if i stoped beliveing in god, i would stay one. Religion controls how you treat others, its part of your culture.

God is there. He is your bestfriend, your hope. And if god doesnt exist than the needy would not have help that they get from the church. Also i kno alot of ppl that would be lost in a world w/ god. But you can think what you want and i may be wrong. i hope not..

 

Just a few nitpicky points here Tahiri_2......nothing personal...just further comments...

first off...its spelled People...this isn't a chat room...its a forum...no offence...but it was rather dificult to decrypt parts of your message due to the abbreviations...spelling errors i can understand...especialy at this time of the night(may not be as such where you are...)...however at least make an effort to spell out the words......thank you...

second..."If you religion is being a Sith your evil and hurt ppl."...if i understand this correctly...you are claiming that their choice of "religion"(not my ideal word choice but i shant go after that) makes them evil......um...isn't it your own viewpoint as dictated by your religion that makes them evil instead of their choice of religion making them evil?......while the Sith do often hurt people, they are only evil from an ethical view where that holds true......i personaly doubt, but don't have solid evidence to back this up, that Exar Kun woke up one day and said that he enjoyed being evil or in any other way admited that he himself was evil...he obeyed a "moral code"(or some other system of beliefs or attitudes) as dictated or other wise encouraged by his belief system......with the exception of the Dark Book of Imperial Law...or something to that effect as seen in the lesser books...there is no reason to belive that the empire or the sith see themselves as evil...

third...i'm not sure i understand what you mean when you say..."Also it control what u eat. Im a vegetarian and if i stoped beliveing in god, i would stay one."......it seems that you contradict yourself...you say that it(religion) controls what you eat and yet you follow this up with a comment saying that as a vegitarian you would remain one even if your religious beliefs changed...care to explain?...

fourth...i don't understand your point in saying: "if god doesnt exist than the needy would not have help that they get from the church"......this isn't entirely true...nor do i entirely see its relevance...god or no god...we have churches in existence today...their existence isn't proof of a gods existance...and to be honest...i belive that, for the most part, if the churches weren't about then the people who need help might have easier access instead of these schemes with the church as a hefty middle man between the contributers and the third world countries...or the city situations where the needy recive help...but with at least some minor indoctrination attached in many cases......care to explain the relevance of this point?

fifth......unless i incorectly translate...you state that people have proof("u kno taht ppl have proof")...i'm not sure entirely understand your proof displayed...finding a city, or "remembering"(somehow through dozens of generations has someone has survived with a memory of these supposed events?)......also the comment claiming that "ppl have talked to 'God'"...is there any real evidence of this?...i mean...most people are capeable of talking...its the existence of any responces that would be of use here...

additionaly...an ending statement that it "is there" is no proof at all...and i know who my best friend is...and it is surely not this supposed being that according to a popular system of beliefs, loves me and yet if i mess up by its numericaly ordered rules just once i shall burn for all eternety.........heck...i'm suprised more people haven't gone atheisitic...

p.s. i too, got high marks in debate this year......
p.p.s....none of this, repeat, none of this, is meant to insult or flame you, or your beliefs, in any way...i do not mean to offend...but instead only to carry on a reasonable debate...

 

>This is long but you should read it.

Okay, what the heck, I'll read it.

>Me and my family were talking about a group of Hindus. (kinda like Calvinists are to Christianity) I don't really >like them but I don't know why. I don't even know anything about there religion. Well, they are Hindus like me >but different. They seem to pray more to preists than God.

"seem to"... How so?

>In a book called Bless Me Ultima a young catholic boy is uncertain on his thoughts of religion. His friends >believe a gold fish is God. This may sound weird but its not when you read the book.

This is called symbolism. You know, like in ESB when Luke sees himself behind Vader's mask. Symbolism

>The boy knows that your only supposed to believe in "God" but later comes to think the Christian God is >jealous. In Hindusim, though, we are told to respect all relgions. Does this include ppl that pray to humans?

That would depend on your religion's (in this case Hinduism) definition of religion. You really ought to see your priest about this...

>In the discussion w/ my family, we came to the conclsion that no religion is bad and that God is God.

God is God? You don't say...

>Also, you dont say my God because God is everyone's. He is in everyone. I dont want to call God him, but you >cant call God an it either.

There should be a different word altogether. Until then,"He" or "She" will work, but I don't think "It" is appropriate.

>So what does this have to do with StarWars?

I was wondering that myself...

>Ok, in Hinduism, God is in everyone, kindof like the Force. Both are said to make life. We (and the ppl in that >GFFA) know they exist, but cannot really explain them. The only differance is that the Jedi do not pray to the >Force, just respect it. Both are not tools for us to use, but guidance. So would God be mad if ppl began to >belive in other ideas than Him?

I think that would depend if it was in addition to, or instead of.

>Im not going to change my religion, and definately not pray to the Force. (even though i am a SW maniac) All I >know is that there is some.... thing out there. A "Greater Being". Part of us like God, binding us like the Force.

Yep, I know what you mean. For the rest of you, that is the only evidence that God exists. It is enough for me.

>And we're like the Vong, we have evolved and left or forgotten it. Like the Vong say we, or juss me, need to >embrace the truths of life. (or to find it) One is pain. Though we should still protect those we can, not kill >everyone like the Vong do.

But who's to say that (in the fictional GFFA universe) the Vong gods don't exist?

TC

 

I like Star Wars, but not as much as Christianity. Star Wars is interesting, but it won't fill any void. Furthermore, it's mostly like Budhaism. Forgive me for spelling it wrong. I'm a great speaker, but not always a good speller. I'd like something that's like Christianity. Anakin being a "Chosen One" and becoming a Dark Lord of the Sith is bad to me.

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit rules!

 

let me preface this post with the following: though GL has explained quite a bit about the basis of the force, i believe that regardless of the author's intentions, the meaning of art is determined personally and individually by the observer, therefore this is just my take on things in the GFFA.

i think the force, like many religions (though i don't mean to generalize) is more of a metaphor for life and a meaningful way of expressing the need for a humane, compassionate society. though i agree with the earlier comment about the ills of organized religion (read a book on the history of christianity...not a stellar track record), i think that for many individuals the church becomes a focal point around which people can find a moral compass. i think GL was saying a lot about the necessity of some type of faith in that the Old Republic thrived for tens of thousands (???) of years (an incomprehensible length of time) largely in part of the protection of the Jedi (morally upstanding and compassionate individuals) and a democratic system of government which, in the case of the US of A, is blatantly rooted in the ideal of humanity that is fundamental in christianity (read the consitution and count how many times God is mentioned). similarly, the downfall of this society was brought on by Jedi who left the moral high road and were corrupted in the abuse of their power only to purge the truly penitant (maybe not identical to the inquisition, but evil enough).

Is there a God? i like to think so, but i am not absolutely sure and it is really beside the point. IMO the force, metaphorically speaking, is an umbrella that can be said to encompass the moral fundamentals of many religions (christian and otherwise). My take on the whole thing is that it doesn't matter if there is a god or not, since no one can HONESTLY know for absolute certain (as jastermereel can no doubt agree) but that what matters is the manner in which our earthbound lives are spent.

This may sound Nitzche-esque, but all we can do is to try to uphold the values of our chosen faith, because if there is a higher state of being, it can't hurt.

 

Oh goody, an evolution debate. I wasn't going to get involved but I just can't help myself.

Jastermereel-you don't like faith based religions let you belive in evolution. It takes just as much faith to believe there is a god as it takes to believe there isn't. After all there is no scientific evidence against either. If you want to believe you evolved, good for you, but why sell the human race short? Don't you think in the alleged billions of years of evolution, there would be more than one sentient species? Oh and here's a cheap shot at geologists, the only place where the geological column thingy exists in its entirety and in order...is the textbooks. No where naturally occurring on earth are the various periods represented in full and complete form. I don't think your being to harsh and I hope I'm not coming across that way either. Anyways, if you can give me a viable explanation of how life can arise from nothingness and/or tell me where the matter came from that was in the big bang and what caused the ignition. I will become a full blown evolutionist. These are the fundamental beginnings of your belief yet can't be proved at all. Of course neither can creation, but...creation is considered religious and indecent for public schools whereas the just as scarcely evidence supported view of evolution is considered fact.

"loves me and yet if i mess up by its numericaly ordered rules just once i shall burn for all eternety"

It's not that you mess up once, it's that you refuse to accept him. The law was only made to show you that you aren't perfect and can't follow it, thus needing something external to save you.

I love to debate so I hope this doesn't get locked.

edit-Does this huge universe make you feel small? Mission accomplished. We were created and give free will cause He wants us to come to him without being forced. A huge universes shows His vastness.

 

suncrusherX...i completely disagree...beliving in a supernatural entity that supposedly exists outside time and has created our universe...everything in its possibly endless expance (a vast majority of that(nearly everything except earth) in a single day i might add)...simply to run an experiment to see how willing we are to blindly follow an old document with no scrap of evidence or reason to belive except a slogan similar to the title of an elvis record: 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong!...i apologize for my rudeness...but in all honesty...faith is accepting something without evidence...and personaly...i don't consider a book evidence...evolution has evidence...different stages of species now extinct that you (again...not you personaly...you as a whole on the opposing argument side both in and out of this forum) would have me belive were placed in the ground just so by some supposed deity so that it would look like this planet has millions and billions of years of history when in fact it was created a mere several thousand years ago over the course of a week!...yeah...that seems plausable......faith by definition is the "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" (websters, 1975, p. 412)...my side needs no faith because we have evidence and proof...whereas you have a mere book with no conformation of it......i could argue that star wars is real using the same methods you claim that god is real......really...i mean...any side can be "argued" on faith because you neven need to actualy win to claim that you do...for if you win...then you have proof(an impossiblity for your side)...an then, through the mutualy exculsivenes of proof and faith, you would lose your faith...

you wrote: "It's not that you mess up once, it's that you refuse to accept him. The law was only made to show you that you aren't perfect and can't follow it, thus needing something external to save you."...save me from what?...an eternity of fire and brimstone?(only appearing in volume two of the commonly accepted relgious text)...really...i mean...what sort of thing am i being saved from?...the only thing i can think of that you would refer to falls under the same imaginary category as this supposed savior...i mean...in the same text, it is proclaimed both that said deity exists...and that there exists such a place that this deity wishes to protect us from...but...only if we "accept him"......to me this sounds like an angry little kid playing with dolls...he makes all the rules and the entire playing field...and controlls all the players...and yet...if one of these players makes a mistake(by his hand)...or is imagined to be disrespectful...they are punished......i'm sorry...but this system makes no sence to me...

and in responce to your posed final question and statment of:"Does this huge universe make you feel small? Mission accomplished. We were created and give free will cause He wants us to come to him without being forced. A huge universes shows His vastness."...no...it doesn't make me feel small...but apparently some one a while back felt small...and wished to inflate their status by calling themselves god's special little follower...and thereby, if only in their mind, inflated their status above the others who were "unsaved"......by the way...given the pety and childish way this supposed god acts...if it exists...i would call it, not vast...but instead a half-vast childish ruler......for the full effect...say it outloud...

again...my apolgize to those i offend...i only speak my mind......i do not mean to attack any one personaly...just ask that they think about their own solidified beliefs...

also...sorry about the fragmented nature of the post...i was repeatedly interupted by other tasks...

 

There is NO evidence for macro evolution. I see you even ignored my plea for evidence on the big bang. Dogs can interbreed, cats can interbreed. Dogs and cats? NO. Monkeys and plants? NO. Variation within species is microevolution. That I agree with. Furthermore carbon dating is unreliable up to 20,000 years. Tests are repeated until the answer wanted shows up. Scientists and believers like you want to believe it so they find proof just as I do. However if an objective analysis were to be done, I guarantee neither side would have more proof than the other. thus either side requires faith.


"would have me belive were placed in the ground just so by some supposed deity so that it would look like this planet has millions and billions of years of history "

What!? If the world was created in the state that science believes, we would survive about half a second. The world was created exactly as we need it. It's not His fault if chuck darwin extrapolated on current data to believe the world was billions of years old. In fact if you use exponentinal growth and half-life etc. You can see the speed of the earth currently. It's slowing down. To be even millions of years old it'd had to of been spinning so fast pluto could be frozen dinosaur sweat.I agree it's harsh and I would've done differently were I Him, but that's cause we have finite minds.

Fire and brimstone was prepared for the fallen angels, before the earth was created. Man was never it's intention, when man lost perfection in the garden of eden, it became the alternative. He is perfect and can't allow inperfection near him, hence humans must be cleansed. I agree it's harsh and I would've done differently were I Him, but that's cause we have finite minds.

You say some man in the past wished to make himself God's little follower. Doesn't science do the same thing? Make man a special animal that overcame primitive functions to be the dominant supreme demi-god he now is. Look at the cloning and what not. Humans now wish to play deity.


Beliving a deity created our universe is a better idea than the fact that matter has always been here. We've been supplied the account and reason for the universe being made, science has yet to come up with a theory of where the supposed pin prick size of matter originally came from. You can keep adding years and years to make things more believable but eventually you reach the beginning and there's no viable explanation. Or even a theory for that matter.

Only in volume 2? Sorry but it's stated in the bible that "heck" was originally inside the earth until the crucifixtion when it was removed to somewhere outside our realm. Probably due to lack of space...Since abraham's bosom was also there, aka paradise. Both have been changed to their present definition of heaven and hell. It's also very symbolic as redemtion changed from looking towards the messiah and making sacrifices, to looking back on the final sacrifice.

I take no offense at all. But let me just add this, throughout the years the bible has always preceded scientists in discoveries. In the old testament, it tells of the currents in the oceans, the earth being round and orbiting the sun, stars being unnumerbal(butchered the word). All before it was common knowledge.