CT My Darth Vader Theory

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Kran Starborn, Aug 30, 2013.

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  1. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The good inside Vader never left. He merely suppressed it for years. All of the characters have both good and evil within.
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  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    "Good" is reflected in your actions. No "good" actions, no "good".

    Regrets and tears in ones secret chamber don't help anyone.
  3. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    Your forgetting the rule of two. Sidious did not want Luke to join them he wanted Luke to join him. Sidious came to realize that Vader was never gonna be the apprentice he longed for and was looking for a replacement. And who better than the chosen ones son. Sidious was always looking for a younger more powerful apprentice as was the case with Anakin 20+ years earlier. Vader was thinking the same thing. He wanted Luke to join him and overthrow the emperor and become the ruler of the galaxy. The three of them was never in the equation. One of them had to die. And when Vader realized it was his son he sacrificed himself and was redeemed.
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  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Vader isn't so dumb to openly suggest turning Luke in Empire when the ROT is in effect. It would be like telling his master he wants to dispose of him right now. Dumb.
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  5. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    WHat the....

    Where is this from? what comic?
  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Given that Vader does suggest turning Luke in Empire:

    "If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally"

    and the Emperor's only response is

    "Yes. He would be a great asset".

    a case could be made that either the Rule of Two is not in effect, or the Emperor actively welcomes the impending clash between him and Vader- since when Luke's turned- one of them will be surplus to requirements- and he plans to make sure it's Vader.

    Darth Vader & the Lost Command.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 4, 2013
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  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Exactly. TESB and ROTJ heavily imply that the ROT isn't in place. Otherwise the Sith also wouldn't attempt to turn Luke "together".
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  8. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    ROT almost certainly not in effect in the OT. If it is, Vader and/or the Emperor are incredibly stupid or they assume that the other one is. This seems unlikely.
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  9. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    The emperor did tell Luke to strike him down and take his place.
  10. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
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    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    He did. I think that shows that there's an OPTION of two, but not necessarily the ROT. It may just have been that Sidious was happy to sacrifice Vader in order to seal Luke's turn, even if having only two Sith wasn't a necessity.
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Vader at this point has also turned traitor. Chances are Palpatine knew about this.
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  12. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Vader has always been a traitor. Hell, his first act as Vader was to betray the Jedi, and all the people he ever knew. Anakin was not trying to come out in ESB, Vader was being Vader/
  13. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    The rule of two is pretty irrelevant to the OT, although, because there is only ever two of them, it works with the story. What is going on in the OT is that there is no real trust between darksiders.
    Vader and Palpatine would both be foolish to trust the other, and they show it through their actions, opting to turn on the other at the first good opportunity.
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  14. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Yup. I think at that point, both Palpatine and Vader welcome the impending clash. Palpatine doesn't want to miss an opportunity to upgrade, so he's happy to test Luke against Vader in order to gauge Luke's strength in the Force and his level of manipulability. And Vader, newly emotional over the discovery of his son, finally feels motivated to try to overthrow Palpy like he'd been claiming he was ready to do two decades before.
    kainee and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Technically he wasn't, as the Jedi's primary duty was to the Republic. Technically he was the only non-traitor in the order. Technically.

    Sometimes situations exist when someone can only chose between treachery and another treachery.
  16. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    The Jedi's primary duty was to uphold democracy, and they served the senate. Palpatine stood for the total opposite of that. I don't see the Jedi's as traitors, Anakin, IMO, Is a scumbag and a traitor.
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not to mention that Palpatine, as the de facto Separatist leader, could be said to have been engaged in treason against the Republic all through the Clone Wars.

    When Mace Windu says "He's the traitor" - he's not just talking moonshine.
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Indeed. But I doubt the Jedi had official permission to arrest the chancellor.

    Palpatine was more or less voted dictator. This was perfectly legal because the laws were changed in a way to make it legal in AOTC. Therefore, what Mace Windu attempted, was an illegal military coup. Officially the Jedi were traitors.

    I agree that Anakin/Vader is a scumbag, but I am trying to see it from his position. He probably thought of the Jedi as traitor and of himself as the only upright person left in the order.
  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Remember he himself threatened to kill Palpatine the moment he figured out that Palpatine was the Sith Lord the Jedi had been looking for all this time.

    I find it hard to conceive of Anakin genuinely believing Palpatine's "Every Jedi is now an enemy of the Republic" nonsense. He didn't go along with the destruction of the Jedi because he believed they were all traitors down to the last youngling- he went along with it because he believed the claim that "Only then, will you be strong enough with the Dark Side of the force to save Padme".

    Anakin knew the Jedi in general and the younglings in particular were innocent of any treason when he went into the Temple to kill them.
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  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I see it this way: The Jedi were Anakins family, whether he liked it or not. But it was a family he despised. The disrespect was mutual. The interactions shown on screen were ... less than positive. But it was still his family. And you don't turn on your family easily.

    That's why he contemplated killing Palpatine.

    But of course his power hunger got the better of him. And the fact that the Jedi were "traitors" made his murder of them just, like the killings of the separatists.

    Padmé? Also just a tool, an excuse. He didn't treat her like a human being. She was an object to him.
  21. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He might have told himself that, but I suspect that in his heart he knew it was a lie.

    Might explain why we see that one tear creep down his face- underneath it all- he knows the truth.

    His grief when he realizes what he's done does look pretty real. There may be an element of evolution- from genuine loving marriage to desperate obsessive attachment. Would fit with what we see in TCW and at the start of RoTS.
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  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Somewhere deep down he realized he was a monster.

    I can't buy it. Everything he did up to the choking was selfish and without any regard for Padmés interests and feelings. A mere youth flame and definitely not his one "true love".
  23. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    When Padme tells him they can't marry in AoTC- he accepts her decision. It's her that chooses to propose to him, when they're on their way to the arena.

    Until RoTS, there's plenty of reason to believe Anakin's love for her was normal.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 6, 2013
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  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I wouldn't call it normal when you "fall in love" as a nine year old and then proceed to think of this special person "every day", despite barely knowing said person.
    Dark Lady Mara likes this.
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He had been having dreams about her leading an army, before he even met her- going by the TPM novel.
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