ST My Issues with the Hero and Villain of this Film

Rather than listing all the problems I had with the movie I will put out my biggest gripes and hope to have an intelligent conversation about it.

The Hero.

If the hero is great at everything and you feel they are never really in any danger, where is the drama? If they never lose or get beat, or need help, how do you connect with that character?

When you look at the great Superman who is impenetrable. Even in the film, he needed the help of Luthor's mistress in order to save the day.

He did not do it on his own.

I look at Rey and how she was a mechanic, pilot, could use jedi mind tricks, amazing with the force and lightsaber...and I had no interest in her.

You see Luke in A New Hope and that is actually my favorite version of him because he is a very flawed character. Someone with so much potential, who is young, brash, whiny and needs the help of others to save the day.

What makes the perfect hero are their imperfections.


The Villain.

As someone who has written, when i think of a villain, my first thought isn't to make the most conflicted and three dimensional character. It's to be scary, fearful.

Once that is established, then you go about figuring out their character.

But first, you must show the audience why they should be feared and how our hero or heroes have their work cut out for them to save the day.

This maintains the drama.

Nothing could come close or touch Vader till the third film. He easily dispatched Obi-Wan and Luke when they first tried to go up against him in the original films. This then told us, the audience, Vader was tough and it made us fear him.

Darth Maul. A different kind of villain. More of a menace. He didn't talk much and we did not get any insight into his character, but this was a different villain that was based more on his incredible skill.

The very fact he took on two jedi at the same time and almost won, if not for his arrogance, shows how fearful he was.

All Kylo Ren did in this film was kill defenceless villagers, and an unarmed old man.

How are we to fear him? Because he is conflicted?

That's not how it works. We have to see through actions why a villain is powerful and why it will be hard for our heroes to win the day.

Drama.

And just to pre-empt a popular response to this critique...I should not have to wait for 8 and 9 to be given the full story.

These are films and not episodes. A film should stand on its own as a complete package, but have room to expand.

Like Matrix, and A New Hope.

Discuss...

 

You lost me when you compared Rey to Superman. As much as I feel Rey is overpowered, Superman is the very definition of an overpowered hero who consistently goes up against an underpowered villain (Luthor). Superman is a veritable god who only works when facing off against other gods. I agree that things came far too easily for Rey but to compare her to Superman, an invulnerable alien deity is overkill.

As for Ren taking out a village; it sets him up nicely as a monster. The real problem I have with him is that he displays a mastery of the force that we've not seen from anyone before him including Vader. He can freeze people's movement, instantly knock them out, stop blaster bolts in mid air, hack into people's minds and force push harder than pretty much anyone out there only to go down like a bag of bricks in the last act. He's lost all credibility as a villain for me as he's clearly no match for Rey who is even more powerful.

 

I agree with you on the hero....I also thought Rey was a little too much. I like her, I think she could be great...but I would have liked her to be a little less perfect.

But on the villain, I disagree. I like that we very quickly shown his humanity and conflict. I think it is an unusual approach that works well. They don't need to repeat the exact story of Vader with starting off totally feared and evil and then slowly revealing his humanity. We already saw that. And besides I am not even sure Kylo is "THE villain", isn't that probably Snoke?

I do like the possible different character arcs of Rey and Ben though...Rey may start off sunny and good and everything perfect, but might be in for some tests and a long, hard, fall.

Ben is starting off evil but very conflicted so he could go in any number of ways...to the dark or to the light...I like that it would make sense either way they go with him.

 

That Real Hope I agree with almost everything you said, so not much to add. You already made valid points.

 

Regarding Rey:

While much has been said about the comparisons between Luke and Rey, let's look at some of differences that may have helped contribute to Rey's ability to pull ahead in her Force sensitivity sooner than Luke did at roughly the same age.

Many view the progression of Force knowledge as something completely linear. Like ascending from Kindergarten grade by grade. As a father, and man with siblings who teach, and and a man with many friends who have young kids it's never been more abundantly clear to me that young people take to different things in different ways regardless of their respective potentials or where they may eventually plateau later on in learning. Some kids take to different areas of learning immediately. It's similar in sports where a teen phenom in one sport may be regarded as the best in their class only to be eclipsed by others later on. Learning isn't linear. Understanding can vary and it's often excellent teachers or coaches who help to unlock the kinds of mental hurdles holding potential savants back.

1) In Luke's case it was largely a strong belief that he knew most of what he needed to know and that he was ready to fight. Many think of Luke as this massive dreamer and while he did dream of fighting in the Rebellion he wasn't particularly imaginative until after he had help from two excellent Jedi masters. He was fairly submissive and doubtful early on. He had largely accepted that there was a good chance he would remain on Tatooine. He wasn't desperate enough and as idealistic as he was in comparison to most... Rey is even more so, especially considering her much harder upbringing and existence. Luke didn't believe it was possible at first to defend without his vision. A big part of A New Hope is actually Luke going from feeling reasonly sure that he knows all he needs to and doubting what's possible to becoming a true believer that ANYTHING is possible. The Death Star run was all about that. It was the biggest hurdle holding him back and it continued to be when he met Yoda. It's why Yoda was so disappointed initially. Do or do not. There is no try. That is why Luke failed.

2) Rey's biggest strength and weakness is that she is naive. She believes people quickly. She dreams massively. She wants to see the good in people. She wants to believe in the Force immediately. The idea of Force ghosts wouldn't surprise her. She was born a true believer and this one single advantage and lack of doubt is the first thing she has over Luke that allows her to take to the Force in ways we haven't seen before. She takes to it because she immediately believes that everything is possible with the Force and her desperate situations almost act as an adrenaline to further accelerate that process.

3) Luke still had a lot of anger about this man who "killed" his father. Deep down he was vengeful whether he knew it or not. That anger was holding him back and while I believe that Obi-Wan knew this immediately... He also felt he was one of their last hopes and that training would have to be accelerated regardless of these two initial hurdles.

4) Rey full of hope rather than anger. She has convinced herself that her parents will return. It takes an elder telling her that they won't for her to finally let go and move forward. Coming to terms with that may have been painful but it's not the same as revenge, which is a harder issue to resolve. Obi-Wan couldn't help Luke resolve his vengefulness because that would have involved sharing the family secret and he didn't believe he was ready for that kind of thing. That was Obi-wan's judgement call and for all we know it did hold Luke back from truly embracing the light in a way that truly flowed through him.

5) There has been an awakening at this point in time in the galaxy. All experienced Force users have felt it. Something has changed. The Force is stronger for some reason and since the Force has a way of attempting to find balance it's conceivable that because of the increased Force use on the Dark, and the lack of Force use among the Light, that Rey ultimately channels more of the Light.

SUMMARY

The Force is mysterious. It's not something that everyone takes to in the same way under the same timeframes, just as learning anything for all of us varies from person to person, with some of us taking to certain aspects more naturally than others, only to later be surpassed by others who started slower but who will finish higher. Mental hurdles have already been established as part of the cannon in holding some exceptional Force users back so should we really be surprised that occasionally some, who lack those same mental hurdles, may take to some of the earlier aspects more easily? The Force is largely about belief and not a half-assed belief but one where there is no doubt at all. The awakening further complicates things and allows for the very real possibility that Force power is increasing due to lack of use among those who can wield it. It also can't be overstated how much In the end, mastery of the Force in all aspects can only be determined with time. It really doesn't matter how quickly one takes to any one thing. What determines true mastery is where one ultimately plateaus.

 

I sometimes think Vader gets more credit than he deserves, just because he wore an intimidating costume.

What did Vader really do in the first film? You mention that he "easily dispatched Obi-Wan," but Obi-Wan essentially committed suicide. He wasn't fighting back.
Who else did Vader kill in ANH? That unarmed Rebel soldier at the beginning, and I think that's it. Maybe he shot down an X-wing... I can't remember.

In ESB, he remotely killed a couple of his own men, and then defeated an untrained kid in a sword fight. (but the kid managed to get away in the end.)

And in ROTJ, he lost a sword fight to someone with minimal training.

 

Yeah, Rey is indeed Superman. She has Luke's Jedi abilities (without training), can fly the Falcon as well if not better than people with a lifetime of experience flying it (Han/Lando/Chewie), and she apparently knows every language like C3P0. I wonder if she can interface with computer input ports with a scomp link like R2 can.

 

Regarding Kylo:

He's in development, just like Rey. And his own internal mental hurdles and some additional training are all that are holding him back from his potential. Early in the film, he literally holds a blaster shot mid air and proceeds to have a conversation, kill a man, and give orders all while still maintaining his focus on that bolt in midair. When interrogating he shows a gift for reading minds, even against those who are especially strong with the Force (if limited in knowledge). He's a considerable threat long-term because when he is focused he does things that only true Sith Lords have shown ability to do. And he's doing this as a fairly young man without a true Sith apprentice.

It's only when he's conflicted, distracted, injured, and under strict orders to try and recruit Rey that he's vulnerable. I watched how Rey fought him closely a second time. She's largely running away and flailing and trying to put objects in his path. He's everything I mentioned above and also arrogant in assuming she'll be easy. It's only when she focuses yet again and taps into the Light fully that he's wowed and caught off guard and defeated. But he clearly was nowhere near at his mental or physical best there and the power of surprise is not to be underestimated. He's likely never fought a Force user who can anticipate what he might be thinking and focus on a counter. How much saber training could he really have had at this point given the lack of people who would be able to test him?

Snoke and the unrelenting cruelty of Hix are in many ways the real threats of TFA. But rest assured... Kylo Ren will get there. This is a villain in transition and on his own path toward Darkside infamy. We only saw the beginning of his path.

 

I also think it might be the new mental hurdles up ahead for Rey that will stall aspects of her development. When she learns more about the truth of her past and her potential connection to Kylo Ren it will likely weaken her and that struggle to regain her potential could be a big part of Luke's role once she's learned the truth. Similarly, I expect it will be her who will help Luke to get over much of his own grief, regret and sense of place in the Universe.

 

Anakin spoke many languages. Built C3PO as a child. Won the equivalent of the Indie 500 as a child. Flew in formation in a squadron with R2 and blew up something that released all droid control and later was jumping off ships at full speed into other ones.

Perhaps she's the chosen one to bring balance to the Force for this generation and that Anakin's true gifts and aptitude skipped generations. ;-)

 

I can see the comparison. Anakin had all that power and a worthless, comic relief sidekick (Jar Jar). Rey also has all that power and a worthless comic relief sidekick (Finn).

 

So would this have been better if Poe hadn't disappeared but instead accompanied them?

So Poe remains the pilot, Rey is a skilled mechanic with considerable self defence skills, whilst Finn remains the Gunner how would that change this movie?

 

Finn is so much more interesting than Jar Jar I don't even know where to begin.

- Former Stormtrooper. Decides to disobey orders to kill innocents. Already cool.
- Chose to break out a hero.
- Survives a crash landing and travels accross the desert to survive and finds a small village.
- Tries to charm an attractive woman.
- Is largely the voice of reason "Why are we going back there again?!"
- Willing to work to get a lift somewhere else. A survivor outlaw on the run who chooses to stick around and help fight.
- Tells a legendary bar owner she doesn't know a thing ablut him.
- Fights an old colleague in hand to hand combat with a light saber he only just acquired.
- Has some actually likable, funny dialogue as opposed to just fart jokes and tongue zap jokes. "Hey Solo." "Did you just call me Solo?"
- Gets revenge on his former boss.
- Volunteers on a suicide mission to try and get the girl he cares about.
- Stands up to a Dark Force user to protect the girl he cares about.

Those are the hallmarks of a strong, solid likable supporting character with a good heart who has fallen hard for a woman he cares about.

 

This thread really comes across as a rehash of about three other threads. Shouldn't it just going into the Haters Cave (that den of iniquity?)

 

Yes, please launch this thread into that black hole...I mean Haters Den or whatever it is.

 

It doesn't make sense to pigeon hole us into one single thread if we don't like the film. How would you guys like only 1 single thread to be positive about the film? That thread would be so all over the place no one would be able to have a coherent conversation. More so than usual

 

About 2/3 new haters threads per day on here.

 

those points are ridiculous. villains have to be monsters all the time? have you seen real life?

 

If you want the full story told in the first film, then trilogies just aren't your thing.

Yes, it's a film, but it's also just one part of the whole story. Again, If that's not what you're into, then SW just isn't your style of storytelling. Nothing wrong with that, but expecting SW to be something it isn't is a bit unfair.

The only reason ANH was self-contained is because nobody knew if it would be successful enough to get any sequels. In the long run, though, I think it makes ANH feel slightly out of place in the grand scheme of the saga. I don't fault it for that, since I totally understand why it was made that way, but it does feel a bit too self-contained compared to all of the other episodes. With TFA, they knew they'd be making sequels, so it would have been a bit silly to pack everything into TFA.