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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Myrkr Is What Makes The NJO Work (And The Galaxy A Better Place)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Trip, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    continuing the discussion here, because the view that Anakin's death was either a waste, or executed poorly, or both is something that comes up a lot, and after revisiting the NJO recently I'm more convinced than ever that it's one of the most brilliant storytelling decisions in all of Star Wars.

    Just to recap my stance: Anakin's death is devastating and awful and wishing he'd lived is completely understandable... but if he didn't die at Myrkr, the NJO would either be a far different and far lesser story for it, or the galaxy a far darker place, or both. If Anakin doesn't die, Jacen and Jaina never discover who they are or realize their respective destinies; a rapport is never established with the Vong; Zonama Sekot is either discovered too late to make a difference or worse, convinced to act as a weapon; Alpha Red is almost certainly used. The war lasts far longer, likely Anakin, or Jacen, or Jaina, or all three die anyway, or give in to the dark; Jaina and Jag almost certainly never become a couple, and definitely never found the Fel Dynasty; the list goes on and on.

    In short, Anakin's sacrifice is the very opposite of pointless: narratively, it's absolutely essential to the story being told, and within the context of the universe, it's the fulcum on which all of galactic history turns.
     
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  2. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Nope. Even were Jacen captured-- not at all something guaranteed to happen, had Anakin survived-- absent a body Anakin, unlike Jaina, would've stormed the gates of Shimmra's citadel itself to rescue his brother, and any outcome-- his own death, that of both him and Jacen, a successful rescue-- would've been disastrous for the galaxy.

    not very likely, although Nom Anor might've started one anyway, who knows.

    No, because the only way to end the Vong War well was to build a bridge of understanding with the Vong, something Anakin could not have done. The only way for the war to be won the way it was won-- and, crucially, the peace, which is where Jaina comes into play, since she's not as essential as Jacen until after the war-- is for death of Anakin, the old-school larger-than-life hero, the min-Luke, the one everyone, even his older siblings, deferred to, to be removed from the equation.

    nope. No Anakin dying means Jaina's in a very different place emotionally; not only does she never do her trickster thing, she never becomes the leader she was meant to be, she never becomes the Sword; she never becomes to close to Kyp or Jag; she returns to active duty as just another pilot in Rogue Squadron and honestly she's probably eventually killed in action, her death devastating her immediate family but to the galaxy at large just another pointless casualty of a long, long war.

    it would've been worse. Remember, Anakin prompted Tahiri to suppress Riina-- we would never have accepted her in the way Jaina and Jag did. With Anakin still in the picture... things likely end tragically, and regardless Tahiri never figures out who she is.

    it is a bit contrived, but it's a necessary contrivance, I think. the thing is you have to have the kids completely on their own on the opposite side of the galaxy from the adults; and you have to have the adults agree to the mission. So while the voxyn queen is kind of a macguffin, yeah, it's a necessary one narratively. Anakin's death doesn't work the same way if it happens during the fall of Coruscant.
     
  3. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Yeah, you could try to contrive a thing where the kids are sent with a handful of slightly more experienced Jedi who are supposed to lead the thing, but they get killed early on and Anakin emerges as the natural leader or whatever, but you're still going to be asking why the kids are even along and why it's not all Streen and Markre Medjev and Octa Ramis on the trip. You need the kids, optimally with their peers, off on their own to deal with this themselves. The whole thing, conceptually, doesn't really work if the kids aren't the ones being forced to make the decisions, to come into their own as adults. If Uncle Luke or Kyp or Corran Horn or Kyle Katarn or whoever is around, Anakin and Jacen and Jaina are only ever going to be followers, not leaders. And they have to be the leaders, to be called on to step up and make wrenchingly hard decisions, for the whole scenario to have any point. I realize 25 was a temptingly round number, but I think the NJO would have been better off pushing things off two years and picking up with Jacen and Jaina eighteen and Anakin sixteen. Absurdly young teen protagonists are a staple of fantasy fiction, but having the kids at war would have worked a whole lot more smoothly if they were toward the higher end of their teens, and god knows late-teens teenagers can still be plenty diffident and unsure of their place in the world. Having Jacen and Jaina twenty and Anakin eighteen at Myrkr would have helped smooth over the idea that they were too young to be sent on the mission.

    Overall, yeah, the whole point of Anakin's death is that everything turns on it. It's the reaction to his death that transforms Jaina and Jacen for the rest of the series. Not only do they undergo grief and soul-searching, but it forces them to step up. They assumed Anakin, the shining hero, Luke's obvious heir, would be the big hero of the war. Now that's in question. Jaina has to step up as the Jedi Order's foremost young warrior. Jacen has to realize that he can't sit back and let Anakin drive anymore; he can't rely on Anakin to be the example to the Jedi, can't rely on him to find the answers. He has to take on a burden of leadership that he'd been shirking. He has to be the one who figures out how to end the war. Anakin was supposed to be the guy who says, "I know how to win the war." Now Jacen accepts that responsibility.

    The whole nineteen-book series is built around this tripartite arc for the Solo kids. The war starts, they're fighting, but while Jaina and Anakin thrive as warriors, Jacen is questioning, reluctant. Jaina is enjoying her role in the military, not as a Jedi leader, but Anakin is clearly the golden boy, the shining example, the kid who can do no wrong. Jacen is doubting, but Anakin is fearless, he's got it figured out. Both of the twins are defined by Anakin's prominence; Jaina is overshadowed by his brilliance and fades a bit into the background, while Jacen becomes part of a dichotomy with Anakin. Anakin is his philosophical sparring partner, the active confidence to his passive doubting. Anakin dominates the duology before SBS, and it positions him as a man approaching the answers, a young hero with a girlfriend who's figuring out some kind of connection to the Vong through his lambent, connecting with the likes of Vua Rapuung. Everyone, from Jacen and Jaina to Luke and Han and Leia, even Kyp and Corran, is looking to Anakin as the next Luke Skywalker, the big hope of the next generation. But he's a hero in a war, and like so many heroes in so many wars, he's unexpectedly cut down in his prime. Before his prime, even. This is the key wrench thrown into the narrative. This is the moment where the story reveals that it was setting you up to think it was doing one thing so that it would be a bigger surprise when it does something else. It's the moment where Ned Stark dies. That was Anakin's arc -- to be the icon of youthful promise stopped short, to be, forever, what could have been. And it was Jacen and Jaina's role to evolve, to take this sudden ninety-degree turn and adapt, for Jaina to emerge from the shadow as the great Jedi warrior, for Jacen to emerge as the next generation's champion, its intellectual and ideological leader, as the guy who has the answers, as the heir apparent to Luke -- not the cocky farmboy Luke who blew up the Death Star, but the wise Jedi Knight Luke who cast away his lightsaber and redeemed his father. Without the death the series doesn't work.
     
  4. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Say what, now?
     
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  5. AdmiralWesJanson

    AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    I have no qualms about the story necessitating that the Childrens Crusade be focused on the children. The problem is how contrived and stupid the reasoning was in universe- we will hand a bunch of children jedi who don't seem like threats over into captivity to be tortured for a while, then they can break out and do their thing. Out of Universe, we have to question why more experienced Jedi aren't sent. In universe, why did they sign off on this plan?

    A few minor tweaks could have made it a lot better- instead of having much of the young jedi knights characters killed off by voxyn, make it some of the adult Jedi, with some killed, and big names wounded when the Vong pull out their new secret weapon. Kyp is badly wounded, Corran is missing after a reported attack, Kam and Tionne are taking a group of the young to safety, Katarn, Streen, and some of the others are desparately holding the line filling in where other Jedi are killed and the Vong are pressing hard. Anakin sees the casualties and thinks that he has to do something, and using his connection to the Vong figures out where the queen is- make the Voxyn a hive mind type thing, dependent on the queen, rather than the odd cloning bit. He talks Jacen and Jaina into it, and they rope in some of the other young Jedi they know, and they set off with the support they can beg, borrow, or steal, but not permission. They make it deep into Vong space, but are captured due to inexperience, and tortured (so Denning can keep his love for Gorn in the book) but they manage to break loose and commandeer the ship. Wounded and shaken, there is tension as they realize what they have gotten themselves into, but they press on. The target is not on a worldship, but Mrkyr itself, partially vong-formed, so they have to deal with both vong beasts but occasionally native ysalimiri and vornskyrs, where Jacen can do his thing, and slaves and collaborators dumped on the world. Drop the Dark Jedi bit, and make the stresses and challenges threaten to break the group. In the end, some split off to create a diversion, one group to kill the shaper who created the thing, and another group to to kill the hive mind queen itself. End result is much the same- Anakin is mortally wounded, perhaps in the mission to take down the shaper and bodyguard, JAcen manages to kill the queen but is captured in the process, Jaina who was leading the diversionary group escapes.

    You have much of the same plotline, but instead of an absolutely stupid plan okayed by the Jedi Masters et al. from the start, the children are impulsive, noble but not quite as prepared as they thought. They rise to face the challenges that threaten to break them, and succeed in the end at great cost. Meanwhile the adults aren't gioving them over to be tortured as plan A, but instead are stretched too thin, and in the end have no resources to assist the children or even stop them, and are forced to accept that they are growing up and taking responsibility for themselves.
     
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  6. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    What I wouldn't give to have Thrawn McEwok back to explain how breaking the monomyth was a bad thing. Best I can do is quote him from elsewhere:

    There's more to be found in that thread (and probably others, but this is the one that sold me on his issue with the NJO), but as post lengths grow, they suffer more and more from the post-size butchering the new boards dealt to old posts.
     
  7. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    The hole was effectively filled. By Jacen.

    That they rolled back on that isn't the NJO's fault. They didn't break the monomyth -- IIRC, Traitor's working title was UNDERWORLD, in a direct allusion to it -- and Anakin's death wasn't some huge blow to the foundational principles of storytelling.*

    It was just a bait-and-switch.





    * Not least because Joseph Campbell sucks.
     
  8. djemsostylist

    djemsostylist Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Mar 8, 2012

    The problem with framing it as a Children's Crusade is that in a way, it invalidates everything. Look, from a modern perspective, 16 and 17 year olds are hardly the sort of people one would want going on dangerous missions that could affect the course of a war. But Star Wars, for all its seemingly modern framing, is actually working more medieval in terms of its overall society. The age of majority in Star Wars is 16--and we have tons of examples of people that age and younger doing things that we would never consider reasonable today. We are Han in that room--incredulous and worried and horrified, but it has to happen anyway. That the decision to do the mission is posited by the kids and approved by the adults is what makes it work, for several reasons. Firstly, the kids have plenty of experience, both with Vong and with fighting in general, which makes the adults have plenty of reason to trust them. Secondly, its actually a good plan--that succeeds. The kids know what they are doing--they've spent the past two years fighting, and they know what is coming. They walk into it with their eyes open. They know they're going to be tortured, they know some of them will die, they even know they might not make it out at all. If the kids simply rush off to do this against the approval of the adults, it becomes an "I told you so" thing--and it makes them weaker. Does a Jaina who impulsively rushed off at the behest of her little brother ever forgive herself for his death? Does she ever trust herself enough to become the leader she needs to be to help end the war? Does a Jacen who didn't plan for the worst ever trust himself enough to open his arms to embrace the World Brain? If the adults plan it and send the kids, then it becomes the adults sending them to die, and it changes everything. Firstly, without the kids coming up with the plan based on their own strengths and weaknesses, does it even succeed? And even supposing it goes down the same way, it changes the aftermath entirely. Leia blames herself for their loss, and doesn't hope that Jacen survives (which means Ganner never thinks to rescue him), Luke gives into despondency that much sooner...perhaps even approves of Alpha Red because what else have they got to lose? And how are they viewed, going forward, how does the galaxy keep its hope, when the best the Jedi could do was send off children to do their job, and they don't come back?

    And as far as Gorn goes, I think its necessary. Look, the thing is, the entire story of the Vong War is that it is Not Your Parent's War. The Vong are not the Empire, and the Solo kids are not their parents. They are, in every sense, let down by the adults. They are failed by the adults, because the Vong War can't be ended by archetypal hero types and a triumph of good over evil. This is not that. When the kids go to Mrykr, its brutal. The Vong fight up close and personal, and the entire thing is terrifying. It's why I love that it takes place not on Mrkyr itself, because the Baanu Raas is the sort of perfect set up. The warrens and the different environments, the sense of terror. Tehkli being elbow deep in Anakin's body--the Mrykr mission is horrifying, and there is no one else who can understand it. Leia loses her sons, Luke loses promising young Jedi, but they have no idea what it was like to watch Eyrl get her face sliced in half by a razor bug, and then lose her corpse when she is dragged into the warrens and eaten, or to have to use a companion as a bomb to help the others escape. It isn't to say they don't know death and pain and loss--they do, but this is different. It's not ordering men into battle on starships and watching the explosions, its not even watching your father die after he's been redeemed. It's not losing your planet but knowing you still have something to fight for.

    The thing is, if the Mykr mission doesn't happen like that, if they aren't tortured and broken and Anakin doesn't die and Jaina doesn't lose Jacen and come back to nothing, then the universe doesn't move forward. Jaina doesn't come back isolated and alone, she doesn't ask for Twin Suns, she doesn't turn to Kyp and Jag, and the Fel Empire never happens. Jacen doesn't work in the slave gardens, he doesn't embrace the World Brain, he doesn't feel the Vong, he doesn't learn to embrace the Universe. The Vong War ends in pain and suffering, Zonoma Sekot is used as a weapon, and Alpha Red destroying everything. The Vong War doesn't end super hopeful, but I think it ends far better than it might have, had Jacen and Jaina not become who they were both meant to be...

    Look, Star by Star isn't an easy book, nor is it an easily palatable story. It's reasonable to be sad about Anakin's death, it's understandable why the "Children's Crusade" seems ridiculous. But when you take the series as a whole, and when you look at what comes before and after, when you look at the subtle hints of the future that Legacy gave us (I'm ignoring LOTF and FOTJ), you can see Mrkyr. It shapes everything--and the way in which is happens is essential.
     
  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I concur completely, yes Mykr is essential. Anakin's death is necessary. Or else the war would have ended badly-either with a Vong victory or alpha red.
     
  10. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I don't really disagree, other than a slight problem with the execution of the death itself. DigitalMessiah and I used to refer to Anakin as Charles Bronson. He liked SBS a lot less than I did, though.

    The only weakness I see in your argument is saying Anakin is the mini Luke, yet can't do what Luke actually did and Anakin was being set up to do as well.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Am I the only one who thinks Anakin's death made both Jacen and Jaina's character arcs worse? But I didn't like Jag so I would have preferred he and Jaina never got together.

    I loved Star by Star, and that scene makes me choke up just thinking about it ("kiss Tahiri for me"), and I would not say it was pointless. But I don't think it did the galaxy any favors either.
     
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  12. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013

    Jacen's it definitely didn't make worse in the eyes of most readers, but Jaina's is up for debate and tends to be more widely controversial.
     
  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Anakin was a conventional hero par excellence-got loads of potential, gonna be better than Luke one day, has the hot blonde, and lots of female attention-and he dies. Not the philosophizing, inward looking, unsure young man named Jacen. Whose wondering as about peace, the Jedi, and philosophy, and the Vong-"navel gazing" as his detractors called it lead to peace with a species that didn't have a word for peace in their language. Led to both the salvation of the GFFA and the spiritual redemption of a pitiable and lost race of beings who needed to come back to their roots in Eden so to speak.

    I guess Anakin fans wanted to see the Vong genocided, or the Vong win, or alpa red because Anakin lacked both introspection and any sense of empathy for "enemies".

    But that's my rant for the day.
     
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  14. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Everyone's interpretation of the events that triggered the ultimate fall of the Yuuzhan Vong in the galaxy may be clouded by what Troy Denning did with the Legends novels after NJO and how he misinterpreted Traitor and Jacen and Jaina's characters afterwards. I know mine is.

    It seemed like the NJO books just decided to wipe out the next generation after the Heroic Trio (Luke, Han and Leia) because those three would be considered untouchable (though in universe they were treated like crap by people who outranked them and that continued in the post-NJO).

    Was Anakin's sacrifice necessary? I believe so. Was it executed well? No.

    Was Jacen's capture necessary? I believe so. Was it executed well? No.

    Was Jaina's descent necessary? I believe so. Was it executed well? No.

    Anakin could've easily served as the catalyst for change in the NJO even if he hadn't died and just been in a coma so everyone could angst just as much as they did in the books and so he'd miss most of the war and when he wakes up, he'd see what his near-sacrifice did to change events and at the same time, possibly prevent Jacen's descent and the rise of idiots like Daala, Lecersen, Treen and perhaps the Destruction of Centerpoint Station. If he'd been out of the way, the post-NJO may not have become the crapsack we got stuck with.
     
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  15. Onderon1

    Onderon1 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2008
    I wouldn't call it a rant - you've hit upon some very critical points, actually. I'd politely disagree that Anakin fans wanted to see genocide, though, much less see the Vong win.

    Anakin certainly wasn't that introspective at first. It's clear from Vector Prime that he's an almost-stereotypical 15-year-old male AFA aggression, certainty in his beliefs, etc. (albeit one who's shifted to action mode from the introspective lad of the JJK and YJK books). Blame hormones. :p

    More seriously, though, there's a fairly clear (if protracted) development in his character arc. Chewie's death shakes him out of his idea of Jedi Knighthood, or at least the certainty he has in his concept thereof. Mara's lectures on Dantooine do more to kick Anakin into thinking, and being more aware of the world around him. And Valin certainly hammered the point home in Conquest by reminding Anakin that he did have people looking up to him (while Corran reinforced the lesson in different ways in Rebirth).

    But a lack of empathy? I don't see that. If he was full-on Grandpa-Vader-in-waiting (which, remember, was Anakin the Younger's serious fear as a little kid), then he'd be pulling off shavit like Kyp's stunt at Sernpidal in Rebirth. Indeed, had Anakin lacked empathy, he probably would've Centerpointed more than the Vong fleet at Fondor (true, Thrackan made that shot, but Thrackan's an opportunistic,on-again, off-again bigoted troll :rolleyes:).

    Instead, Anakin's risking everything to rescue Tahiri in Conquest, including working with Vua Rapuung - an act of cooperation that, I posit, would've been impossible without Anakin growing somewhat since the war's start. Dummy-boy didn't just rush into the damuteks; he planned, he learned - he thought, and didn't annihilate the Vong wholesale.

    The (IMHO) great flaw with Myrkr has already been addressed - although I'd freely agree that that flaw is critical to what came after, and that Jacen's arc was critical to what we got AFA an ending to the overall arc. But is it possible that A/T couldn't have achieved the same goal, as Anakin might've accepted his girlfriend's dichotomy and worked to help her find balance (and, in the process, worked through his issues with the Vong, and maybe found a path to peace)?

    We'll never know, at least not outside of fanfic (and let's just leave the 'fic for the 'fic boards [face_peace]).

    AFA how (IMHO) the franchise spun out of control, McEwok did a far better job of addressing that than I can. Suffice it to say I agree with him. :)


     
  16. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    How did the NJO wipe out the next generation? Of the preexisting characters, it killed off Anakin, Dorsk 82, and Lusa (a character people were barely aware of) and sent Raynar off on a bus to mysterytown. The next-generation characters, both preexisting and added, retained at the end of the series include Jacen, Jaina, Jag, Tahiri, Zekk, Lowbacca, Tenel Ka, Danni Quee, Tekli, Tesar, Alema, Valin, Jysella, Ben, Syal, Myri, Wyn Fel, Dab Hantaq, Octa Ramis, and Izal Waz. And that's not even mentioning the people who were older than the kids but were still successor characters who were part of the transition beyond the big three -- Traest Kre'fey, Gavin Darklighter, Cal Omas. The next generation was perfectly healthy at the end of the NJO.
     
  17. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006

    The entire NJO and onwards made it seem like the next gen was being deliberately sidelined because the Heroic Trio (Luke, Leia and Han) kept being put in charge. The closest we got to them retiring was Crucible and look how that turned out.

    But to me personally NJO crippled the next generation so badly that it was impossible for it to heal and lead the galaxy.
     
  18. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Gavin had like 5 kids as well.
    Mirta Gev, some of the other Mando's,
    Turi Altamik, Seha Dorvald, Kani Asari, Seff Hold, Nelani, Bazel Warv, Trista and Taryn Zel, Zindra Daine, Malinza Thanas,
    Tycho and Winter could have adopted some kids as well.
    Heck, just about everybody could have adopted kids,
    etc.

    So many characters to get stories from.
     
  19. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Those are all post-NJO, though.

    But Noash, how did the NJO keep the big three in control? It was explicitly about passing the baton. Gavin is Rogue Leader and Jaina gets her own squadron. Leia has to deal with the fact that leadership of the NR has moved beyong her old guard. The kids are elevated to co-leads with the big three. And at the end, Leia is decisively out of politics, Luke is moving away from control of the Jedi in favor of a Council, with Kyp, Saba, and Jacen poised in leadership roles. Han's retired. Wedge is retired. Tycho is retired. Ackbar is dead. Traest Kre'fey is supreme commander. Tenel Ka is in charge of Hapes.

    I don't know what more you would want. Should twenty-year-old Jacen be proclaimed Grand Master? Should Jag be the twenty-two-year-old supreme commander? Maybe Jaina can be president of the galaxy instead of Cal Omas? The whole thing is about these people taking their place as the next generation by stepping up side-by-side with the last hurrah of the old generation. At the start they're kids, and by the end they've taken over all the active heroing. Jaina's the one who kills Tsavong Lah. Luke kills the figurehead but it's Jacen who figures out who the actual ruler is and kills him. It's his new understanding and Tahiri's ability to bridge the worlds that win the war. Jag and Jaina are our new fighter pilot heroes. Han and Leia spent the whole series basically just being around. They never did the big thing and got the big hero spotlight. I just don't understand how you could read the NNO and say the older generation ran over the younger generation. The post-NJO, yes, they screwed up the handover BAD. But the NJO is a completely different thing, and it passed the baton perfectly.
     
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Yeah your completely right Havac.
     
  21. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Probably because the OT cast didn't die in the NJO series like the PT cast did in the OT. The whole generational saga thing. Let the OT cast end up differently than the PT cast.
     
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  22. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    This... makes sense when I think about it, although you could still have a Fel Dynasty. It isn't dependent on Jaina to make it happen. The Fels are honored Imperials so it isn't impossible for Jagged to just be selected for eventual Emperor anyway. Assuming we're going for the OP scenario, Second GCW wouldn't happen as it did though, since Jacen is the only one who could've gone and done what he did when he did. He was really the one that had enough influence in the Alliance and Jedi and could pull it off. If Jaina was to live, she could fulfill the Caedus role I suppose, but if not Lumiya would've had to find another willing apprentice and someone with enough power and influence to cause a war. If Jacen, Jaina and Anakin are all dead, I can't see anyone in the Alliance team to fulfill that role, unless Luke went Dark Side instead or something. The Remnant was too weak, sure it got to expand but it wasn't really an equal to the Alliance until the Victory without Peace program.

    Maybe Lumiya takes up an emotionally distraught (because of Jaina's death) Jag? No idea.
     
  23. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2014

    Alpha Red, the Fel Dynasty, even the Vong's even more direct connection to Zonama Sekot then they already had are all just story elements created for an post-Anakin Solo death universe. You're putting the cart before the horse.
    Yes, to follow preexisting themes the Jedi should discover a relatively non-violent solution to the war or otherwise it should destroy them (though it was basically decided that the war destroyed Jacen anyway) and Anakin had demonstrated to not be the guy that was gonna make that happen, he believes he understands the Vong and is only more convinced that they can't be convinced otherwise. That doesn't mean he needs to die to facilitate Jacen playing that role instead. Jacen wanted to find another way to begin with and Anakin's life and death were far from Vergere's only ammunition in manipulating him. If his character is of such obvious main character material unlike Luke, Leia or Han that needs to be taken of the board so Jaina and Jacen can have an adventure to themselves then he could've been frozen in carbonite and made off with by Lomi Ko or some other third party. That the galaxy was a better place part implies you think Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi were better for Anakin's absence, I would dearly like to disagree with that,
     
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  24. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2016
    Okay, Anakin's Death/NJO essay time -- this is sorta long and I never expected it to be ... but ya'know... I love these characters and stories, so here it is:

    The discussion of Anakin's death reminds me of the discussion/debate over the beginning of Alien³. The decision to open the film by essentially sending Ripley to hell and instantly killing two of the most sympathetic characters from the previous film, just killing them off on the start, and stranding Ripley on a planet full of prisoners and convicts, leaving her to make sense of the situation -- all of this has attracted criticism. And yet, it has many people who defend it as something that needed to happen. And if you are a believer in the concept of the film, they are right. In order to tell the story of Ripley dealing with all of this loss in a bleak and very unforgiving world of the Alien universe, we need to see it through her eyes, and we need there to be sometimes senseless loss, ripped away inexplicably. We need both things there in order for it to be effective. The whole essence of the film rests on one person's response to total bleakness, and the threat of more danger. And when you see it that way, it's impressive, actually, what Fincher did. Can a bunch of horrible, horrible convicts come together to save Earth? Laughable, most people would think this impossible. But this is what Ripley realistically achieves, in the face of despair, and to save humanity, she sacrifices herself. There's lots of stuff there, good narrative stuff, to chew on. While it's not a perfect film, I sympathize with defenders of this choice and I like the Assembly Cut final version of the film.

    Now what does this have to do with Star by Star and the decision to kill Anakin? It's very much the same, or at least very similar. Except NJO eventually takes this in a very spectacular direction that Alien³ does not. For starters, we have a very sympathetic protagonist. He's liked by almost everyone and considered the future of the franchise. And yet, halfway through the series, the kid is straight-up killed. Not even just killed in an accident or something. He's murdered in combat. He gives his life for others, at least, so it's not completely senseless, but he's still dead. And he doesn't come back. Ever. And no one knows what to do. That's a helluva lot to take in.

    Is it fair that Anakin died there? No.
    Is it what the galaxy needed to happen? No.
    Is it what any of us wanted to happen? No.
    Is his death guaranteed to produce post-traumatic growth in other characters around him? No.
    Does it fit with Star Wars, that our main hero would die halfway through the story? No.

    But is it the best decision for the story? Yes.

    In fact, scratch that: Undoubtedly, unquestionably, unshakably yes.

    Anakin's death violates what we want. It refuses. It spits at us in the face. To our characters, death now says: ha! good luck making it out alive now. you being a hero means nothing to me. i come for you too. That little bubble that Han talked about in Vector Prime -- the one that sort of protected all the main characters? That he thought was destroyed when Chewie died? That's nothing. Chewie dying was sad, yes, but he was a side character from a previous age. He wasn't set up as the hero of the next generation. No, when Anakin died, that protective bubble? There wasn't just a hole in it now. It popped. And darkness flooded in. And our characters didn't know what to do with that.

    And this is when, love the moment or hate it, the New Jedi Order grew its dark little angel wings and was ready to fly. Oh, and fly it did.

    Did Anakin have to die? We can sit here and say yes or no, as readers. But the truth is, we don't know. Maybe the Jedi would have had a better chance with a superstar like Anakin surviving every time to save the day. That would wrap up the swashbuckler epic The New Jedi Order in a fun, righteous way!

    Except, as others have said -- that's not what this series is about. We've seen that other series over and over again. No, instead, this series is about when that doesn't happen. When you trust the hero and he dies because not even he can get out of this thing alive. It's too much for him, so he has to give his life just on the off chance you can escape alive. (And now it's up to you to step up to the plate. Yikes!) It's like Dante's Inferno on a horrifying sci-fi scale. In fact, no, it's not just like Dante's Inferno -- it is Dante's Inferno. I quote from it:
    Star Wars had met Inferno and in the midst of it, it killed our hero and a lot of his friends and left our remaining characters feeling hollow, confused, shocked, horrified, and not knowing what to do. And it left us feeling the same way. This is when the story took on a life of it's own, for a key reason. There's an unspoken rule of Star Wars and most modern storytelling -- don't kill the hero. Or at least, don't kill one of our heroes. And we all sort of unconsciously accept this rule and come to expect it. That's why, I think, some said it violated the monomyth. It violates our sense of what the story should give us. We don't want it. And, to make sense in the world, the characters themselves unconsciously come to expect this protective bubble as well -- that's what Han was referring to above. ("Anakin won't die, he can't die. Han saved him instead of Chewie, so they wouldn't just let Anakin die. That would render Chewie's death meaningless!") And so, the New Jedi Order, Vector Prime, and most importantly Star by Star is a resounding message on this point. What does it say? It says: no. No, I won't give it to you. People die and things don't always turn out. If you want this to work, you are going to have to work for it. And you might not even survive if you win. The characters are gonna have to grow and figure this thing out themselves. Plot armor won't help them anymore. And now, even they know it. They're scared and they are ****ed up by all these events. They don't know what to do. Like real life. Growth means nothing if they don't have to work for it. The brightest light comes from the darkest night. And so NJO set up that "darkest night" pretty darn well.

    I love that Jacen, the private, introspective, philosophical type, is suddenly thrust into this. He's not prepared. He's not the right guy. It should have been Anakin. He can't deal with this. And on top of that, he's getting tortured. He's got to actually change, actually grow now, to step up to the plate. He can't just twiddle his thumbs -- he's got to choose and act. He has to grow up, even though he doesn't know what to do or if he's right. Also like in real life. Same with Jaina. Both have to actually learn and do -- shock! -- character development in order to succeed. And it's hard and it hurts and it doesn't feel okay, but ya'know, sounding like a broken record here but: that's life.

    There's a reason that NJO often resonates very deeply with those who connected to it. It's about what happens when our favorite fantasy characters meet a very bad situation with our real life world rules and have to deal with it. Because, as we know in our world, death spares no one. These guys have to deal with that. And they have to find the answers because at first no one knows what the hell to do with this. It's not easy and some make mistakes. But the most impressive thing about NJO is that it's bait-and-switch turns out to be one of the most powerful growth stories ever -- all this philosophical mumbo-jumbo, hemming and hawing by this side-show Jacen kid? all that distracting stuff in those early books? oh, I guess that has, like, a lot of relevance now. And, oh, I see why they did that... NJO actually managed to make the thing work as a cohesive whole, and you can look back and see Jacen as the protagonist the whole way, we only didn't realize it at first. Pretty darn good, I say.

    And not only does Jacen grow, not only does he win, he owns it. The themes go in his direction. He achieves enlightenment on top of it. Would that have happened with Anakin? Who knows -- probably not -- but all we know is: this fell into Jacen's hands, so here's what he made of it. Not too shabby, Mr. Bodhisattva.

    So, in conclusion to this long-winded post -- did it suck that Anakin died? Yeah. Was it unavoidable? Maybe. Maybe not. Like the surviving characters in the book, we imagine how it could have played out differently, and there is even some anger perhaps at why did it have to be this way. But does it make the story work, and does it make our characters work for it? Big time yes. They've got to deal with it, we've got to deal with it, and out of that darkness we reach a height that, at the end of it all, may be the highest ending the EU could possibly end on. And I can personally attest that Jacen went from one of my most indifferent characters to being my favorite of the EU. So yeah... Anakin, you were good, we loved ya, and we didn't want you to die. But you died, and our characters had to deal with it. But they turned that big lump of coal into a gold diamond in the end, and so, in that sense, you dying had its place -- and for this story to happen the way it did, it had to happen exactly how it did.
     
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  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Speaking as a writer: I agree with the statement in the fact that a large thing about the books was they wanted to give actual stakes to the story, which Anakin's death did in a way killing the Mighty Chewbacca didn't.

    I was here when they killed Anakin. Everyone thought they'd killed Jedi Jesus and everyone assumed he'd be resurrected until Dark Journey when his body was being burned.

    Which caused ANOTHER freakout.
     
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