Mysteries of the Sith - Revelations Resurrected

"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge." --Darth Maul

1.) The Senate had no knowledge of the Clone Army

2.) Jedi Council (as a body) had no knowledge of the Clone Army

3.) If Sifo Dyas (whomever he is), in fact ordered the clones, he was the only "Jedi" to know about it

4.) Technically, the clones are for the Republic

5.) the ONLY evidence linking the clones to the Republic/Jedi other than Sifo (which was unkown) is a saber dart!

6.) HOW were the clones supposed to be delivered? To whom other than Sifo Dyas or his representative?

7.)HOW with Kamino outside the Republic and NOBODY having knowledge of the clones, is one supposed to find out/know about the other??

8.) Does the entire Clone Wars depend soley on Jedi finding Jango Fett's saber dart AND Dexter's info? (Unrealistic, as Jedi Analysis droids found nothing in the Archives regarding Kaminoan technology etc.) Since Tyrannus/Dooku is behind the conception of the army , THIS was his bait, the intentional missing piece of the puzzle? - I DON'T THINK SO!

9.) If Sifo Dyas is a ruse and never personally ordred any clones (if he was dead perhaps) then it rests totally in the hands of Sidious/Tyrannus, EXCEPT that GL has said that a Jedi ordered them (SEE BOTTOM

10.) So, the only people of the Jedi who knew about the clones prior to anyone else is Obi-Wan and Yoda

11.) I think it can be agreed that Obi Wan is NOT Sifo Dyas (for one, the Kaminoans would recognise him)

12.) Since this plan supposedly derives from the Sith ten years prior to AOTC, we can agree that Obi Wan is NOT Sith or involved

13.) that leaves Yoda ... who just prior to Obi Wan leaving for Kamino (to track Jango NOT clones) spoke of the 'missing planet'.

14.) Obi Wan, is strangely expected (who announced his arrival? Yoda?) and Obi is confused as representing Sifo Dyas. Sidious & Tyrannus could NOT have expected, nor the Kaminoans, that a Jedi would be visiting them at that exact time to check status (unless, see point #8 above). Not at all confusing if Obi unknowingly WAS serving as intermediary for Sifo Dyas (Yoda).

15.) Yoda goes personally to Kamino (do the Kaminoans address him as Sifo Dyas?) AND the clones are released to him (also strange, clones are expensive, do I assume Dooku privately procured and his former master takes possesion?). They are delivered to Geonosis. This 'officially', is the trigger that begins the Clone Wars.

16.) since Dooku is Tyrannus a Sith, does than mean he is a double agent working secretly for Yoda ...OR...

17.) Is Yoda the real identity behind Sifo Dyas who incidentally should be identified as a Sith proponent

18.) With that possibility, we have few options. Either by triangulation (because Sidious knows what Tyrannus is doing) Yoda is working with Sith towards an endgame... OR.... Yoda is revealed as a Sith! IS it possible that Yoda is the master and Sidious is/was an apprentice? Surely the reverse is not true?

19.) Appearences are deceiving, just look at Palpatine who everyone 'knows' is Sidious. I believe that the Phantom Menace of Sifo Dyas is nothing more than a clouding of the Jedi's sense of the Dark Side. Sifo Dyas is a mental projection, an operating doppelganger/avatar (a Dagobah Dark Side cave type. Hey, who lives on Dagobah?).
A splinter in the Jedi's minds eye, utilised by the combinant power of Yoda and his servant Sidious (Sith manipulators pulling the strings of their puppet and respective pupils). Sifo Dyas doesn't need to be an actual Jedi to achieve his purpose, as everything regarding him is uncertain!

20.) Deficiencies and inherent weaknesses of the Jedi, something similar to Dooku's failure (Yoda's recent pupil) and Anakin's fall to the dark side could be due to the fact that Yoda has been manipulating the training of Jedi for a long time (perfect Sith ploy), possibly implanting a Shroud upon their perceptions or even making slight alterations to their Midi-Chlorians making 'Sifo' invisible to them, the same way Sidious masquerades as Chancellor. How

 

absolute brilliance.

This is a topic that certainly needed to be discussed. Yoda is certainly a sith.

more explanations for why yoda is a sith:

That is why yoda is able to live so long.
That is why yoda's home on degobah feels so evil.
That is why yoda made an attempt on luke's life. ("need your weapons you will not")
That is why yoda convinces the council that the sith haven't existed for a millenia.
That is why yoda knows all about the sith.
That is why yoda protected himself by making up the "rule of 2" when its actually the "rule of 3"
That is why yoda is a pessimist.
That is why yoda didn't kill Dooku.
That is why yoda is corrupting all the younglings in EP2.
That is why yoda deleted the archive entry.
That is why yoda was *mysteriously* present when jarjar "unnaturally" proposed that immediate powers be given to palpatine.
That is why yoda disagrees with the council in EP1
That is why yoda looked so comfortable at the head of the clone army.
That is why yoda was *mysteriously* in-tune with anakin when he killed the sandpeople.
That is why yoda didn't want Luke to save his friends in ESB.
That is why yoda is what palpatine will look like in 800 years.
That is why yoda looked so concerned after Maul died.
That is why yoda could live no longer once he discovered that luke survived vader at Bespin.
That is why yoda knew how to stop the dark power of force-lightning
That is why yoda depends on younglings to corrupt, luke was "too old"
That is why yoda stated "impatience" was of the darkside, yet yoda was so impatient with luke.
That is why yoda feared luke would not turn, so he mentioned "there is another"
That is why yoda ignored ObiWans concerns for anakin in AOTC, and responded by saying obiwan was "too sure of himself".
That is why yoda stated the darkside wasn't more powerful, just "quicker". Which describes yoda in his duel with dooku.
That is why yoda hopes to give vader the advantage when he tells luke: "A Jedi never uses the force for attack"
That is why yoda's "passive" nature is no longer a sign of wisdom, but a sign of unproductivity.
That is why yoda creates a manifestation of ObiWan in the swamp when he realizes luke is still intent on leaving for bespin.

obiwan is considered rebellious.
obiwan's master QuiGon is considered more rebellious.
QuiGon's master Dooku is considered even MORE rebellious.
and Dooku's master Yoda is considered... you do the math.

 

So you are saying Yoda is a bad guy...

* thinks for a second *

No

 

people who *think for a second* have been the greatest leaders of disaster and presumptious fluff this world has ever seen.

 

people who *think for a second* have been the greatest leaders of disaster and presumptious fluff this world has ever seen.

Yetoso, the only reason I had to think for a second was because this doesn't require alot of thinking to figure out that while you have some valid points of view it will in no way happen. Yoda being a bad guy will totally tear down what the OT built. Yoda is the last remaining good guy and as his last act of hope he trains Luke as the Last Hope of defeating a growing Empire, not to mention help bring the Chosen One/Father back to the good side. Yoda is pure good and all the movies reflect this.

 

Thats an imaginative altrenative theory but if you look into it, DarthShadowspawn, alot of the stuff your
theorizing can be refuted just with evidence in AoTC alone, never mind the glaring continuity problems that
your ideas present to the entire Saga.

 

Thats an imaginative altrenative theory but if you look into it, DarthShadowspawn, alot of the stuff your
theorizing can be refuted just with evidence in AoTC alone, never mind the glaring continuity problems that
your ideas present to the entire Saga.

Could you at least give one single example?

 

I think there are several weak links in this chain of reasoning.

Sidious, through whichever intermediaries, is behind the order of the Clone Army. He is behind it, but because its inception was unauthorized, he cannot afford to ever be directly linked to the origin of the army. Thus he schemes to have the order placed by a Jedi, Sifo-Dyas, or someone impersonating Sifo-Dyas.

OK, so now he has the Clone Army in development. He has to come up with a way to bring them into action, on the side of the Republic, in such a way that his personal involvement in the unauthorized activity is never revealed. Once again, the Jedi serve as perfect fall guys. (Later on, when the dust of the Clone War settles, the Jedi will be set up as being the devious plotters behind all of the death and destruction.)

The Jedi have to be led to the discovery of the Clone Army in such a way that they have no clue that Sidious is involved. Their discovery of the army has to be timed to coincide with the vote in the Senate, and it has to be timed right so that the Jedi are compelled to reveal the Army's existence right away and bring it into battle, before having time to investigate its shady origins.

Now, these are all necessary elements of Sidious' plan. How does he pull it off? Well, we see in AOTC that the clue that leads Obi-Wan to Kamino is the dart fired by Jango to kill Zam. It is known that Sidious is in league with Dooku, and Dooku is in league with Jango. Why would Jango, a skilled bounty hunter with a huge variety of weapons at his disposal, choose to use a dart so unique in design that it could be traced to a single planet -- Kamino, where he happened to be living?? If this decision by Jango was accidental, that implies a level of incompetence that defies credibility. And it's awfully lucky that this is the planet where the clones are being developed.

In case it's not painfully obvious already, here's the "behind the scenes":

Sidious has conspired with Dooku and perhaps other puppets to begin the development of the Clone Army on Kamino. Dooku hired Jango Fett to be the master template for the clones. Sidious needs to set things up so that the Jedi "accidentally" stumble on the existence of the army. Sidious, through Dooku and his Trade Federation Separatist buddies, sets up an assassination attempt on Padme, knowing that the Jedi will investigate. Jango, on instructions from his bosses, deliberately plants a clue to lead the Jedi investigators toward Kamino. Even though Kamino has been removed from the archives, the gravitational signature is still there, so it's not unreasonable to expect that the Jedi will find it.

This interpretation is consistent with everything in the films, and with what is known about the characters and their schemes. The alternative is to suppose (1) that Jango is incompetent, as described above, and (2) more importantly, that events simply conspired by accident to serve Sidious' goals, instead of Sidious manipulating others in ways which serve his goals, which is the way he is known to operate. Or (3) that Yoda is a Sith, which is utterly preposterous.

 

One example, really a refutation: Why go through all that trouble with Yoda and then end RotJ with Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin yukkin it up.

 

Bottom Line...Yoda is a good guy, sorry that's the way it is. The Entire Saga would lose everything that it means to represent if Yoda is really a bad guy behind the scenes. I don't think I need to type a long post with examples to show everyone that this won't happen, I think everyone can think them up on their own.

 

A very well informed thread, I disagree with some of the stuff, but a great write-up nonetheless.

 

Bottom Line...Yoda is a good guy, sorry that's the way it is.

hence, the "presumptuous fluff".

I love it when people believe things just because they grew up believing that way.

you counter mounds of logic with an ounce of bias. classic.

 

The reason for the three Force Spirits being seen (only by Luke) together at end of ROTJ, is because they were the ones responsible for Luke and the redemption his character brings to Anakin his father, to Obi Wan his guardian (also redeemed for his failures in training Anakin). Yoda is present and is redeemed by teaching Luke and for all the reasons in this thread (and they do apply).
Either from having been Sith, or as a complicit Dark Side user and for possibly ordering the clones which directly contributes to Sidious' plans, Yoda has the demise of the Jedi Order to atone for and his involvement in allowing Anakin to be turned against the Jedi. Especially when it will be shown that Yoda's awareness of the truth, his knowledge of the Sith and his allowing events to transpire so that the Prophecy is fulfilled all occur because Yoda fails to reveal any of it.
If Anakin can be good, then turn evil, only to be become good at the end, why is it not possible that by the time of the OT, Yoda is correcting the pathways of the Force and righting his wrongs, however sinister and shadowed they may be?

 

the average viewer would have no chance to follow this theory, good write up, but its ludicrous to think yoda was a sith master and sidious an apprentice...yadda yadda yadda...


totally and utterly unrealistic

 

hence, the "presumptuous fluff".

I love it when people believe things just because they grew up believing that way.

you counter mounds of logic with an ounce of bias. classic.

Yetoso, I think this thread speaks for itself. You and DarthShadow have your theory on this, which is fine, but bears no meaning to Star Wars.

 

Hey Yetoso - can you do some more of the letter rearranging game you did when this thread was on the 3SA board? That was hilarious stuff!

I think that there's way too much reaching on this one though.

It's quite simple - speculation on both my theory and on this Yoda = Sith theory - but quite simple though. Unfortunately, neither can be proven. Just conclusions and theories drawn up based on the movie(s)

Palpy realized that the droid army was incompetent. I mean come on now - they got beat by a bunch of silly gungans and a handful of Naboo fighters. So, he needs plan B after losing the battle and losing Maul.

He recruits Dooku. Either he or Dooku order the clones under the name of Sifo Dyas.

The saber dart? I think it's just silly that it all comes down to Dex knowing everything about the galaxy, but Obiwan had to find out about it somehow. Just the way the story was written.

good thread and interesting theory, but I just can't see it happenin'

 

It's "logic" like this that led to the Palps=Clone theory.

 

MeBeJedi: It's "logic" like this that led to the Palps=Clone theory.

It's that kind of traditional shoe-filling bias that led to such atrocities as the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem witch hunts.

Let go of your bias MeBeJedi, feel the logic flowing through you.

 

Its a bit off the topic but whats strikes me about what DarthShadowSpawn isn't that Yoda might be bad.
whats really clever is what was said about the whole clone army being discovered only because of a little dart. How the hell did sidious (or whoever ordered the clones to be made) know that obi wan would find kamino in the first place? If obi 1 didnt find that dart then no one would have gone to get the clones, the droid army would have won the war easily and all of sidious's plans would have failed. whats the deal?

 

I'm sure Sidious would have had some way to bring the Clones to the attention of the Senate. What self-respecting Sith Lord would let a little snag like that ruin his diabolical scheme to take over the galaxy?

 

ObiWan506

Yoda is a good guy, sorry that's the way it is. The Entire Saga would lose everything that it means to represent if Yoda is really a bad guy behind the scenes.

What if the Star Wars saga came out today and we were only at chapter two and you knew nothing of 3, 4, 5 and 6? What if I told you "Anakin will destroy the Jedi order in Episode III". I think you'd be exactly the type of guy to refute this, saying that it was ridiculous, that the Chosen one could not possibly destroy the good guys and that it would ruin the meaning of the saga.

To yetoso and DarthShadowspawn you listen.Open your mind, my friend. Get rid of your preconceived notions. Try to think farther than "Good guys versus bad guys". Star Wars is full of grey areas; don't be afraid to explore them.

Food for thought:

-Was Londo evil when he didn't warn his friends that Vader was expecting them?
-Was Obi-Wan evil when he lied to Luke about his father in ANH?
-Was Obi-Wan evil to tell Luke to go kill Vader?
-Was Han Solo evil for shooting Greedo dead?
-Was Qui-Gon evil when he CHEATED on Watto on that dice roll?
-Was Mace evil when he chopped off Jango's head when he could have just as easily cut his arm off?
-Was Anakin evil when he wiped out the Jedi order?


severian28

One example, really a refutation: Why go through all that trouble with Yoda and then end RotJ with Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin yukkin it up.

Yoda is redeemed in ROTJ, same as Anakin. That's the whole meaning of the saga. If Star Wars was only: "Bad guys stir up trouble, good guys fight them, nearly die but in the end win" it would be one hell of a Dragon Ball-ish boring saga. Instead we have depth of character, downfall and redemption. Even when the Star Wars saga is over, we'll still be speculating on the motivations of individual characters and that's the genius of it; something you'll never find in Star Trek for example.

And just for the record: I don't believe Yoda is a Sith although I do believe he's a dark sider and that he ordered the clone army. I post in this thread because even though he's wrong, DarthShadowspan is right about a lot of things and I respect his ability to question what he knows of the saga and build a very consistant theory that is very difficult to refute.

 

Yoda was trying to keep Kamino secret & suppresed. Why do this if he ordered the clones? - Because Dooku betrayed Yoda's confidence and allied himself with the other Sith Lord. Palpatine/Sidi is aware of the clones, but as Chancellor can not reveal that he does. Nor, was it the Sith's intention that they be found (at that time). They would have used them COMBINED with the Droid armies. That is why Yoda chose the lesser of two evils in having the Clone army activated - better that the Jedi use them now than the Sith later, EXCPET that the clones obey the Voice of the Republic: Palpatine.
The Clonetroopers becoming an asset in the hands of Sidious, rests squarely upon Yoda's conscience and it comes down to how much of the truth Yoda is aware of. Which means, if he suspects that Palpatine is the DLOTS or knows/confirms as much after AOTC , but can't accuse him of being Sith - then who needs enemies of the Republic when you have 'friends' like Yoda?

Besides, Sifo Dyas was not onscreen in Ep2, therefore the Jedi who used that name was and will be unmasked as the 'impersonator'. Believing Dooku to be the Jedi who erased Kamino from the Archive data banks is false. After the Battle of Geonosis and going into Ep3, would anyone still refer to him as a Jedi? Is he pretending to be one still? -NO!!

If you believe otherwise, then perhaps Yoda is a Sith. Now if Yoda is permitting all the above to play out, with Jedi's lives being sacrificed simply to 'verify' the validity of the Prophecy, then he is more sinister and tyrannical than Sidious with a naturally psychopathic, depraved indifference for Republic life (PT) not (OT), by that time he is redeeming himself and after 20 years on Dagobah alone, one can see why. Not hiding, but secluded so as not to hurt anyone, anymore

 

What if the Star Wars saga came out today and we were only at chapter two and you knew nothing of 3, 4, 5 and 6?

But it isn't. It already came out and we all watched it and we all saw what it became. We also picked up what it meant. What if I told you that everything the OT was meant to show us would be thrown away if Yoda is a baddie, because that's what's going to happen. I am not a theory basher, I love theories...but this one destroys everything the Star Wars we watched become.

 

The initial post is an interesting idea, and it seems well thought out. But it makes a number of huge assumptions to make it's point. It is not based on logic.

1.) The Senate had no knowledge of the Clone Army
2.) Jedi Council (as a body) had no knowledge of the Clone Army
3.) If Sifo Dyas (whomever he is), in fact ordered the clones, he was the only "Jedi" to know about it


Logically, there is no way to know that any of these three ideas is true. You don't know that there was no one in the senate or the Jedi who was aware of the clones. Obi-wan is surprised, but Yoda and Mace don't seem to be. A jedi ordered the clones, so logic actually dictates that the Jedi council (or at least some of them) knows about them.

5.) the ONLY evidence linking the clones to the Republic/Jedi other than Sifo (which was unkown) is a saber dart!

This doesn't make any sense logically or otherwise. The saber dart is a link between the assassin and Kamino. It has nothing to do with clones, and doesn't "link" to the Republic at all.

9.) If Sifo Dyas is a ruse and never personally ordred any clones (if he was dead perhaps) then it rests totally in the hands of Sidious/Tyrannus, EXCEPT that GL has said that a Jedi ordered them.
10.) So, the only people of the Jedi who knew about the clones prior to anyone else is Obi-Wan and Yoda.

There's no reason at all to assume that Sifo-Dyas was a ruse, or that the senate didn't order an army created after Naboo was invaded.
As for point #10, there's no logical reason to assume this either. Mace doesn't seem surprised to hear about a clone army, he may have known. Maybe Yaddle was fully aware of the clone army and the location of Kamino.

14.) Obi Wan, is strangely expected (who announced his arrival? Yoda?) and Obi is confused as representing Sifo Dyas. Sidious & Tyrannus could NOT have expected, nor the Kaminoans, that a Jedi would be visiting them at that exact time to check status. Not at all confusing if Obi unknowingly WAS serving as intermediary for Sifo Dyas (Yoda).

This isn't confusing in any way. The clones were ordered 10 years prior. It takes 10 years to grow a clone. Sometime around the 10 year mark the Kaminoans would have been looking for the jedi to check on the progress of the clones. The Jedi starfighter is, well, a Jedi starfighter. Additionally, Obi-wan is dressed as a Jedi. I'm sure "expert cloners" are smart enough to add two and two.


The rest of your argument is based on the assumptions that your first points are true, and I don't think they are. Still, it's a neat idea. And there ceartianly is a chance that Ep.III will prove you right I suppose.

 

What if the Star Wars saga came out today and we were only at chapter two and you knew nothing of 3, 4, 5 and 6?

But it isn't. It already came out and we all watched it and we all saw what it became. We also picked up what it meant. What if I told you that everything the OT was meant to show us would be thrown away if Yoda is a baddie, because that's what's going to happen. I am not a theory basher, I love theories...but this one destroys everything the Star Wars we watched become.

Exactly. And guys, resurrecting this thread in countless forums won't change that fact. Demanding users to believe other users' theories over the movies they've grown up with and what Lucas says about them is ludicrous.

The idea of Yoda being redeemed as a fallen Sith would work well in an Infinities series, but not against the actual saga as it happens. Perhaps you guys should put together a proposal for Dark Horse Comics.