PT Mysteriousness of the force....

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Rolf Larsen, Feb 18, 2014.

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  1. Rolf Larsen Jedi Master

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    Oct 1, 2013
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    I hope I'm not going against the wishes of the moderators by creating this thread, but the last thread I made about "Prequel trollers have ruined the movies for me" was obviously creating too much trouble.

    I'm creating this thread solely to understand how lucas portrayed the force in the prequels. You see, what I explained earlier in my previous thread was that I didn't understand why Anakin, a generally good person, would go killing tons of innocent people just to save a loved one. Is this because of the force? I know that Yoda states in the phantom menace that emotional attachment to people can lead to the darkside. It's basically implied throughout the whole prequel trilogy (and Star Wars universe) that people not trained in the force become emotionally attached all the time, and they don't usually turn into people just as super-evil as the sith but without force powers. Do you think when the person in charge of script (was that Lucas?) wrote that line, he was trying to imply that the force can change jedi's emotions more drastically than those not trained in the force who are emotionally attached to someone and fear losing them?
    Just because I think it would help me to understand the prequels better to know, is there anywhere where it states that the force influences people like this in the prequels?
    Thanks.
  2. Samnz Force Ghost

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    I don't think we can reduce discussions about the Force to the PT, because it is obviously supposed to be seen in the context of the OT and PT.

    First of all, Anakin was a good person. But he was not all good. We've seen him killing others as a result of extreme emotional stress and pain (Tusken Camp) before and it was highlighted how much that event had traumatized him ever since then in the films. So if you think about it: one time he killed in response to loss; the next time he killed in advance, trying to prevent loss. Anakin's turn - in essence - derives from fear, greed, possesiveness and selfishness. He had a lust for power (greed), especially for the power that could enable him to stop people from dying. He learnt to become attached as a young boy and when these attachments (especially to his mother) were cut, he became extremely possesive and feared to lose people he became attached to. That possesiveness - combined with a growing selfishness - led to his actions in ROTS.

    Now, what about the Force?
    This is all speculative.
    Everything in life is reciprocal. When you touch something (say: a wall), it (the wall) touches you.The only reason why you can't walk through a wall is because the wall pushes back. So it is most likely that the dark side had a tremendous effect on Anakin. Every single murder made Anakin more "consumed" by the dark side, shutting his "true" self. Consider Yoda's famous quote from TESB:
    The Force most definitely has an effect on poeple. Without his visions from the Force, he would have never done that. But ultimately, the critical choice was his own. And it was a bad one. But that's the point of his fall. People doing wrong things (murder) for reasons (trying to save life) that are - in isolated view - not wrong (but totally inappropriate, in Anakin's case).
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 18, 2014
  3. Seagoat Force Ghost

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    I just think Anakin is a highly emotional guy who faced development issues due to an inconsistent, harsh upbringing. Born as a slave, meets a girl who he pretty much instantly crushes on, then spends the next decade in a strict order preaching emotional control. Kind of a roller coaster
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  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

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  5. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Actually, Yoda said:

    "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin! The fear of loss is a path to the Dark Side."

    Anakin: "I won't let my visions come true, Master Yoda."

    Yoda: "Rejoice for those around us who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy, the shadow of greed, that is."

    Which line? And who wasn't trained in the force that we can use to compare Anakin's journey with? Yoda wasn't talking about the average citizen in the Republic, or even a distinguished one like Bail Organa, he was talking to an unstable Jedi who happened to have a really strong connection to the force. Those without the force can find ways to wield some political power, but the PT made it clear that a selfish person who commands the force can become very grave threat to the Republic... especially when there are "Two of Them" working together.;)
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    Just about anyone is capable of that. That is the essence of nature . . . the good and the bad goes hand-in-hand. Even if many of us don't want to admit it.


    Grand Moff Tarkin had no connection to the Force that we know of. And he proved to be a great threat . . . especially to Alderaan.

    Sometimes, I get the feeling that some of you are trying to box in or attach labels to the nature of sentient beings . . . as if only certain individuals with certain types of characteristics are only capable of certain acts. To me, that is rigid thinking. I think anyone is quite capable of anything, given a particular situation - emotional or otherwise.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 18, 2014
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  7. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    Interesting thread.

    I don't think the force makes a person more evil or more prone to committing certain acts. Rather, it's an amplifier of what's already there. This is why the Jedi are so wary of attachment, fear etc when they're considering training someone. If these things are present to what they consider to be a dangerous level, they know that when power in the force is added, there can be severe consequences. Anakin is a case in point. Had he not been force sensitive and trained in the force he probably would've grown up to be a garden variety unhappy, angry young man with a chip on his shoulder, but probably wouldn't have become a murdering psychopath (probably). Add the force and it's a different story.
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  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Why do you guys continually try to paint Anakin as this one-dimensional delinquent? You don't know how his life would have turned out, if he had not joined the Jedi Order. Or met Padme. None of us do.

    Why do human beings continue to believe that only "certain types" of people or those who come from an impoverished background are the ones who are mainly capable of embracing evil? I find that kind of thinking rather bigoted.

    The problem with the Jedi is that their attitude in dealing with attachments strike me as ham-fisted and one-dimensional.
  9. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 10, 2012
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    From a Psychological perspective, Anakin craves attachment, but also fears losing it all the time. He displays many traits found in BPD (borderline personality disorder) and NPD (the narcissistic version). As a child he is made a slave. Then taken from his mother. Talk about separation anxiety! He grows up, a person who is constantly craving attachments but the next minute he is pushing them away. Acting like a brother to Obi-Wan at times, then being aggressive and rude to him at other times. You could say the same to a lesser extent to him and Padme at first in AOTC until he becomes almost obsessed with her. He feels he has to get her to love him at any cost. His emotions sway up and down. He loses his mother. Guilt and pain. Just added to the emotional issues he has had since childhood. He goes from extreme grief about his mother to actually smiling and almost laughing with Padme minutes later on the ship. The emotional roller coaster of a personality disordered individual.

    Getting to the Force part btw...lol.

    He also always justifies his actions (like a bpd) no matter how heinous others may see it once he is consumed by the Dark Side. To me, it's like the Dark Side of the Force clings like a parasite to a tempted individual and preys upon their weaknesses.

    For Count Dooku, perhaps it was pride above all else.
    Maul, anger.
    Anakin - his fear of loss and constant need/pushing away attachment

    The Dark side took a hold of this and our boy was toast at that point. Ready to delve deeper and deeper into the Dark Side to make everything in his life fall into place. To have that normalcy and control he always craved. To have Padme. To do what he wants without asking the Council or dealing with the consequences set by them. His justification is evident, telling Obi-Wan from his point of view the Jedi are evil. The Dark Side preys on its "victims", twists and contorts until they are a victim to it (and to whoever you are serving).
  10. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    DRush...

    I assume, because you quoted me before making this comment:

    Why do human beings continue to believe that only "certain types" of people or those who come from an impoverished background are the ones who are mainly capable of embracing evil? I find that kind of thinking rather bigoted.

    ...that it's directed to me. If so, please consider reading my post again, because I suggested nothing of the kind about impoverished people. Base any claim of bigotry on what I actually said if you wouldn't mind.

    As ObiAlKenobi nicely summarized above, Anakin had certain personality traits which are likely to create certain situations in everyday life, force or no force. But when strong force sensitivity is involved and the prospect of being able to resolve those issues through the force, the result of someone having those personality traits becomes potentially far more catastrophic.

    I don't think the force changes his personality or makes him inherently more evil, it just gives him more options!
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Feb 18, 2014
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  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    There are people in the universe who train in the ways of the Force and in doing so, they must first learn to master themselves as much as they do the Force. This is why Obi-wan tells Luke that because he's been training for a while now, this is a dangerous time for him. He can feel the Force and use it, but he will be tempted by the dark side because he has not learned to control his emotions. As Yoda states, the dark side is the quicker and easier method to using the Force, than doing so without emotion. That once he starts using his anger and hate, his ability to use the Force will increase in intensity which will result in the power controlling him, rather than Luke controlling his power. This is why Vader opted to use Han and Leia to bring Luke out of hiding and to him, much like his mother's death had resulted in his going to Tatooine.

    To avoid turning to the dark side, a Jedi Padawan must dedicate their lives to not only learning about the Force, but to mentally prepare themselves against the dark side. One such method was learning to let go of their loved ones, so that they could concentrate on the bigger picture and not on themselves. Anakin had a simple task which was to take down Palpatine, but his emotional connection to Padme interfered with his being objective. Meaning he couldn't bring himself to eliminate Palpatine, if it meant sacrificing Padme. He made a conscious choice to betray the Jedi, if it meant that he could keep his wife in his life. When Luke faces a similar threat to Han and Leia, he also starts to surrender to despair and begins using the dark side. But Luke understood what was at stake and chose to not surrender to the darkness within him.

    This is what the Jedi trials are. Giving up their attachments by facing the fear, anger and hatred and choosing to reject it. Luke could do that, but Anakin couldn't.

    Not at all. But the thing with Tarkin is that he was guided by his own ambition and his own lust for power, which came in the form of the Death Star. For Anakin it was using the dark side of the Force. Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. It is not a 100% certainty, but it happens quite often.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Feb 18, 2014
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  12. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    The Jedi need to be very particular who they choose to train, because let's face it, the kind of power which the dark side purports to offer is pretty tempting. Being able to reject the chance to transcend all of your pain and suffering would require not only a very strong, but probably also a very grounded and relatively 'at peace' individual. The greater the torment, the greater the temptation to want to overcome it.
  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    And the Jedi, like everyone else in the universe, will have to face such temptations on more than one occasion. And despite their training, there is no real guarantee that any of the Jedi will always be able to overcome such temptation.

    If not the Death Star, I believe there was always the chance that Tarkin's ambition could have manifested in another negative manner.



    Luke was barely able to do so, thanks to Palpatine's help. And Anakin could . . . in the end.

    And even if a Jedi was able to pass his/her trial, there would always be other trials in the future.




    And what makes Qui-Gon susceptible to evil? Obi-Wan? Luke? Yoda? Mace? Leia? Han? Ki-Adi Mundi? Each character has something within his or her personality makeup that makes him/her susceptible to evil.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 18, 2014
  14. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    So we're back to 'because everyone's susceptible to evil in some way everyone's equally evil' theory?
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  15. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Yes. I will always return to that theory, because I believe that everyone is susceptible to evil. Why is that so hard for you to consider?
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 18, 2014
  16. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    Because being susceptible to evil and being evil aren't the same thing. Just like injuring one person and murdering countless people aren't the same thing.
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  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    It can be. I don't recall Padme raising a fuss when she learned about Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens. And Obi-Wan not only left Anakin to slowly burn to death on a lava bank, he also tried to manipulate and later coerce Luke into committing fratricide.

    The number of victims don't count to me. When a person is willing to embrace or support evil for whatever reason, then that person is susceptible to it.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 18, 2014
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  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Or...hating someone and murdering someone are not the same thing.

    Anakin became evil because he chose to do so. And he was gullible as hell and believed everything Palpatine told him, including the idea that his emotions were special and he should be allowed to do whatever the hell he wanted if "following his feelings" led him to do so.

    I actually do believe we are all susceptible to evil. Which is why we have the responsibility to choose to do good. Anakin was capable of accepting that responsibility.

    The Force had nothing to do with anything other than enabling Anakin to do greater evil more quickly.

    The Force does not make people more emotional. If it did, the Jedi Temple would be full of emos who sat around listening to Coldplay and Evanescence and sobbed about how much their lives sucked.

    BTW, the "hey look at that character over there!" and attempts to get personal with other fans are not exactly effective arguments. [face_laugh]
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Feb 18, 2014
  19. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    ^^^ This.
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Feb 18, 2014
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Sigh!:rolleyes: I really despair of the human race. They never learn.
  21. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

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    That's why the Jedi try to get force sensitive kids as young as possible to save them from potential trauma or bad experiences they might have experienced like Anakin did. It's easier to train them up right than to have to undo years of bad experiences. Mace said he was too old, and he was right (one of the rare times I agree with Mace). Not only this, but also not every kid gets to be a padawan, some are not selected and then forced to leave the temple. It doesn't get talked about in the movies, but in novels it does. The Jedi Apprentice books cover some of it.
  22. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    BTW when did Obiwan try to coerce Luke into killing Leia?
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Feb 18, 2014
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  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Oooo! Score! I suppose this is your way of winning the argument and showing how "superior" :rolleyes: you are to me. Yes, I made a mistake. I meant that Obi-Wan tried to coerce Luke into committing patricide, not fratricide.
  24. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    I wasn't going to mention it, but after this I couldn't resist. ;)
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Small beans when compared to the Republic or the Empire. Tarkin obliterated one planet and was a threat to another before dying at the hands of a small attack force. Plus, he was never on that long of a leash anyways. The Grand Moff lived with the knowledge that he was just a force choke away from losing his control of the Death Star, permanently.
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