Nagging Question:Nazis in Egypt?!

Discussion in 'Lucasfilm Ltd. In-Depth Discussion' started by JANGOANTILLES, Jun 13, 2005.

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  1. JANGOANTILLES Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 4
    Maybe I missed something but when doed Raiders take place? Before the war right? So why would Egyptian authorities(then under a British sphere of influence)allow large numbers of heavily armed German troops into the country for a dig? That does'nt make sense right?
  2. Jon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2004
    star 2
    Just quickly looking around the Internet, Raiders was set in 1936 - World War Two started in 1939.
    Since 1882, Egypt was controlled by Great Britain, but a treaty was signed in 1936 restricting British troops to the Suez Canal Zone (under pressure from Italian-controlled Libya).
    The Italians would later invade Egypt in 1940 (also declaring war on Britain and France), and the British would sign another treaty, leaving Egypt in 1956.

    Again, that's just quickly off the Internet, it might be inaccurate. Seems Italy had more influence over Egypt than the British during Raiders?
  3. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    The Nazis went around Northern Africa at that time. It should've been easy for them to slip into desolate and isolated regions of desert.

    -Seldon
  4. JANGOANTILLES Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 4
    Maybe... but they didn't look very covert to me
  5. Darth-Lando Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    Maybe... but they didn't look very covert to me

    Maybe not but remember, it's 1936. They don?t have satellite?s to watch over everywhere that they control. I would imagine that it would be easy for the Germans to sneak in. Didn't Belloch (sp?) mention that there was desert in every direction? The only way to know that the Nazis were there would be to see them. And I doubt many people go out into the middle of the desert voluntarily. I don't think it's to far fetched to think that the Egyptian government doesn't know.
  6. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    The other possiblity is that they bribed the Egyptian government--and that the Egyptians allowed them in.

    Darth-Seldon
  7. dudalb Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2001
    star 3
    Or maybe just admit that Lucas and Speilberg decided to throw historical authenticity to the wolves in the interests of an exciting story?
    Heavily armed Nazis in Egypt in 1936 is a historical impossibility,Egypt was basically a British satellite, and who the heck cares in an Indy Film?
  8. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    It is possible, this isn't impossible.
    It isn't that hard to occupy a small area of desert for a few weeks. Especially when the local government could be bribed.

    Darth-Seldon
  9. DarthPoppy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 4
    It is absolutely, possitively impossible. this is not a Star Wars universe question, but a question of real history. It is impossible. However, it makes a great story and the Nazis are the perfect evil villains for the story--it is not interested in historical accuracy. This kind of thread is amusing in discussin GFFA, but out of place and stupid here. Just enjoy the movie, it is not part of some mythological universe or anything; it is just historically wrong, but not important to the story. George Lucas is not God here.
  10. Jon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2004
    star 2
    This kind of thread is amusing in discussin GFFA, but out of place and stupid here
    Not really. The film is fiction of course, but discussing the history around it is not stupid.

    I was wrong earlier, British troops were not restricted to the Suez Canal Zone until 1946. So they were there during the time of Raiders.
    Besides, this is 1936. Germany had absorbed countries but war wouldn't be declared until the invasion of Poland. The British probably knew about the Nazi dig (the Americans did after all) but since they were not at war yet, they didn't get involved. Or as Seldon said, the government could have been bribed and everything kept quiet until Indy arrived - which is the easiest explanation.

    That's enough (hopefully accurate) history for me for now, it's late! I-)
  11. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    It isn't impossible at all.
    The Germans didn't invade Egypt, nor did they occupy the nation. They were simply allowed into a small region of the nation. That isn't impossible, even when considering the time period. Such a thing could happen.

    -Seldon
  12. DarthPoppy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 4
    What do you mean "such things could happen"? The film clearly has armed soldiers, of both vehrmacht and SS in Egypt. What kind of country allows armed combat troops (illegally armed as that, as such armament was contrary to the Treaty of Versailles, then in force against Germany)? Certainly not Great Britain, who at that time was the leading world power and already suspicious of German ambitions (cf Churchill's speaking as a member of the opposition against Chamberlain). It is a fun movie which makes historically zero sense. Their presence in Egypt would be seen as an act of war against the United Kingdom and I guess in your universe that is ok, England wouldn't mind. True foreing powers are often allowed to conduct archeaological activities in other countries, but they are not allowed to bring their armies with them; this is not a possibility; international law is a real thing, not an opinion.
  13. Jon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2004
    star 2
    Just to drag discussion a bit more towards the film, maybe the Americans/British wanted the Nazis to recover the Ark with the intention of snatching it later? They ignored the camp so the Nazis could do the hard work, with a little help from Indy.
  14. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    "What kind of country allows armed combat troops (illegally armed as that, as such armament was contrary to the Treaty of Versailles"

    Perhaps you're unfamiliar with German history, but the Treaty of Versailles was constantly being broken by the Nazi Party--they hated the treaty (one of the causes of WWII) and they weren't afraid to break it.

    The troops were in a small region of ISOLATED and DESOLATE desert. The British might not have even known about it. The Egyptian government can be bribed. The Nazis were in the middle of nowhere, it is completely possible that the British had other concerns at the time. That they just didn't have the time to investigate and to attack them. It was a small group of Germans on a dig, in a desolate desert. Not exactly something to be all that concerned about. Nations have to pick their battles--if they even knew or cared.

    We're not talking about the Germans moving onto London, it is a small bit of land in Egypt.

    -Seldon
  15. DarthPoppy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 4
    Darth Seldon is obviously not very well versed in history, though he talks with great authority. Egypt's "government" was British in the 1930s -- it was a colony, and yes they would have noticed a german division anywhere in the country, they have trucks which had to cross borders. Enjoy the movie Seldon, but leave the historical analysis to people who actually know something about history (at least a college education please!). And this isn't flaming, this is a serious discussion about something real, not an "IMO" game.
  16. Jon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2004
    star 2
    Are you sure? As I understand things the British signed the Anglo-Egyptian treaty (The Treaty of Alliance Between His Majesty, in Respect of the United Kingdom, and His Majesty the King of Egypt) in 1936, recognising Egypt as a sovereign independent state.
    The British were allowed to station troops in the Suez Canal Zone and support the Egyptian military as a result of the treaty, but didn't run the country as they had (though probably maintained a strong influence)?

    In terms of the film, maybe the Egyptian government authorised the Nazi dig - against British will. Not wanting to damage/strain relations, the British went along with the Egyptians and allowed the dig, keeping a close eye on what was going on - intercepting the Ravenwood transmissions etc.:confused:
  17. DarthPoppy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 4
    The King of Egypt was a client king installed by the English in much the same way they installed the Rajput princes in the Princely States of central India. This was done to centralize a native court culture allowing the English to exert greater influence over the colony. Egypt was a British colony still, it didn't even have the "dominion" status granted to colonies with greater autonomy. When in the late 1950s Egypt became independant, one of the first things they did was abolish the British installed monarchy. They also used this structure to allow Egyptian soldiers to enforce law in the Sudan (than known as the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan; note this army still had British officers).
  18. Jon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2004
    star 2
    Aha, so the Egyptian government was still very much in British control?

    In that case maybe the Americans/British allowed the dig for the Nazis to locate the dig-site. Once they knew where it was, they played dumb and sent in Indy (with the head piece) to retreive the ark for their own. Only they never use it, because of what happens to Belloq.

    Whatever the move explanation, it's been interesting doing the real-world research. Now onto Crusade... :p
  19. JANGOANTILLES Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2005
    star 4
    Well even if Egypt was as tightly controlled as an Indian kingdom (and if memory serves it wasn't) we saw in Temple of Doom that the English were not always aware of everything that happened in their empire. The bribery theory seems the most plausible for now.

    We don't see the Germans breaking the Versailles Treaty in the film per se. They lack heavy weapons and just have jeeps and trucks which were okay. The very notable exception being the flying wing of course...
  20. howardgarbo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2005
    star 1
    Since you guys mentioned the Nazis in Egypt thing I thought I'd post some interesting stuff to discuss in the sequels.

    Temple:

    - When Indy is talking to Willie about Shorty he mentions how Shorty's parents were killed during a bombing on Shanghai by the Japanese. However Temple is set in 1935, the Japanese bombed Shanghai in 1936.

    - The Thugees were not a cult in real life but a society of criminals and thieves. The Thugs in Temple are based upon the Thugs from the movie Gunga Din and various serial carictures. Although they did worship Kali and kidnap village children and raise them as their own.

    Crusade:

    - Henry and Indy visit a book burning rally in Berlin. But the book buring was done in 1933, five years before the film takes place.

    - Henry and Indy travel by zeppelin. But in 1937 after the Hindenburg disaster, zeppelin travels were stopped.
  21. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I just wanted to respond to this for a minute.
    Yes, I'm 17...I'm glad you pointed it out as it probably makes you feel superior.
    I'll be attending College next fall, so I don't have a degree.

    However I do have college credits in both United States and European History. I'm not sure if you're familiar with AP examinations. Basically it is a High School class taught on a college level (with college texts and college work load) at the end of the year, you take a nationally administered examination. If you pass this exam, it translates into college credit.

    I passed United States History and European History.
    In addition (not that anyone cares) I was awarded the Pell Award for Excellence in United States History at my High School.

    I'm only going on about this--because it annoys me when someone attempts to judge someone else based on age alone.

    -Seldon
    Edit: I apologize for the digression, howardgarbo: interesting facts!
  22. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I just wanted to add something else.
    If the American troops could secretly go on missions into Cambodia during the Vietnam War, than it isn't impossible for Nazi troops to sneak into Egypt.

    -Seldon
  23. DarthPoppy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 4
    The United States bombed Cambodia from bases in South Vietnam. Any ground troops were special ops, not regulars.
  24. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I'm making a statement about crossing borders--it is never impossible. Impractical, illogical, perhaps--but not impossible.

    -Seldon
  25. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 10
    There's a pretty cool thread here that outlines all the historical inaccuracies in the Indy films here;

    Indiana Jones: When History and Fiction Collide

    Just think, these are inspired by adventure serial comics / movies / westerns of times long gone, and historical accuracy was never a concern for those stories, just a ripping yarn was all that was needed.

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