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Phx Nature vs. Nurture and the cloning debate

Discussion in 'SouthWest Region Discussion' started by Idiots Array, Jan 21, 2003.

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  1. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
  2. Jedi_Wench

    Jedi_Wench Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2002
    [face_laugh]

    "Fiesty pigs, and pigs that just don't give a damn." That is the funniest thing I've read all day! [face_laugh]

    BTW...exactly who is HOME Simpson? ;)

    Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :D

     
  3. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
    Here's another article on the topic of cloning, this time about cats. From CNN.com.
     
  4. Kirana_T

    Kirana_T Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2002
    [face_laugh] The company is called Genetic Savings and Clone. Somebody call the pun police! [face_laugh]
     
  5. Mirax H

    Mirax H TFN Costumes Staff star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 1999
    As a veterinarian and animal lover, I find this utterly repulsive that there are plans for cloning of pets already, and that that company already is storing DNA!!! Honestly, what is wrong with people??? This is just really really sad that people want this and that eventually you will be able to clone your pet. I hoped I would never see it happen but it looks like it is unavoidable since there are already companies chomping at the bit waiting to do it. This is just terribly wrong :(
     
  6. ChoadsGirl

    ChoadsGirl Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2002
    I agree. There are just some lines that do not need to be crossed. Cloning is one of them. It opens a door to some way wrong things. 1st animals, then people. They already know there are problems with cloning animals, they knew that with Dolly. She has progressed in age much much faster than she should. The took cells from a 4 year old sheep and by the time Dolly was 2 she had all the signs ans symptoms etc of a 6 or 7 year old sheep. Huston, I think we have a problem. There are some things that need to be left up to mother nature. This, IMO, is one of them.
     
  7. sideshow212

    sideshow212 Former RSA star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    ok, i'll play the devils advocate...

    cloning in general will probably not be widespread. too many religious issues getting in the way.
    however, the benifits of genetic engineering in the future far outweigh the costs of the present.

    for example, stem cell research could be the key to curing paralysis, but because they use aborted fetuses for testing, it is banned in almost every state.
    other areas of genetic research could find ways to end a slew of human disfunctions and disorders. birth-defects, alzhiemers, diabetes, virtually every genetic and hereditary disease could be eliminated.

    cloning is not the evil most people think it to be. it will not be like huxleys vision of a government-controlled world where everyone is born in a bottle. it is simply another step to understanding ourselves more. sure, it's not perfected yet, but did the wright bros. build a 747 on their first attempt at flight?

    the biggest opposition to cloning comes from most religious organizations, who argue about the exsistance of a "soul". well, seeing as most religions started out thousands of years in the past, when the world was flat and earth was the center of the universe, they are simply not equipped to deal with science stripping away all the mysteries of life that religion was supposed to have the answers for. when a religions beliefs are supposed to be 'infallible', and science comes along and says that they have another explanation for the way things are, it tends to cause a bit of conflict, to say the least.


    but thats just me. :D

    everyone (in this country at least) has the right to believe however they want, which is why i will never say someone else's beliefs are wrong. hell, i may be dead wrong, but this is how i believe, and it has as much validity as anyone else's.
     
  8. Idiots Array

    Idiots Array Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2000
    They already know there are problems with cloning animals, they knew that with Dolly. She has progressed in age much much faster than she should. The took cells from a 4 year old sheep and by the time Dolly was 2 she had all the signs ans symptoms etc of a 6 or 7 year old sheep.


    Just a quick note: Dolly was cloned using a different technique than the one described in the two articles. As I recall Dolly was cloned using adult cells, while the both the pigs and the cat were cloned using fetal cells. Both Cc the cat and the cloned pigs are about 2 years old now and are, by all appearances, perfectly healthy. So, it has been proven that cloning can produce healthy organisms.

    Personally, I don't see anything wrong with cloning in and of itself...as long as it is used responsably. I'm not denying that we open some potentially terrible doors by continuing cloning research, but we face that with every technology.
     
  9. Mirax H

    Mirax H TFN Costumes Staff star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 1999
    I will say I am not against cloning to help find ways to eradicate diseases, to grow organs for transplant patients, those type of reasons. I think in the right hands it can be invaluable. However, I know that people think that cloning will bring back a loved one they lost and that is just not true and that there are folks out there that will try and make money off of people like that. That just is very sad.
     
  10. Commander_Choad

    Commander_Choad Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2002
    Yeah, I have to agree with Mirax - It is sad that there are people who take advantage of other people for a quick dollar... But that's also true of every other industry... There are too many instances to count of people using/abusing the system and other people, all for personal gain. I think that cloning is like any other technology, it is neither good or bad, it is only how it is actually used. Just like firearms, vehicles, computers or anything else - they are not inherently good or bad, it is the useage of the wielder that makes it so... I can see the day when there will be cloned skin, so that people who are burned don't have to have plastic, pig or cadaver transplants, I can see the day that if someone has a failing heart, they can clone one to replace it with... I can see the day that people can have a limb replaced, by having it cloned...

    The other side of the coin is that I can also see the day that there are people take advantage of the ignorance or prejudices of others, and thereby give the legitimate uses and users a bad name.

    I think it was Larry Niven who wrote of a world, where organ banks were filled with the organs of criminals who were condemned, and even some people who were kidnapped and disappeared...
    I can see that happen, as there is already a black market for organs - It is up to those who are NOT evil/trying to use other people to keep the standards high and keep it clean.

     
  11. Mara Jade Emperor's Hand

    Mara Jade Emperor's Hand Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 1999
    ...seeing as most religions started out thousands of years in the past, when the world was flat and earth was the center of the universe, they are simply not equipped to deal with science stripping away all the mysteries of life that religion was supposed to have the answers for. when a religions beliefs are supposed to be 'infallible', and science comes along and says that they have another explanation for the way things are, it tends to cause a bit of conflict, to say the least.


    Exactly. And that definitely poses a bit of a problem. I mean, I am a spiritual person, and I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, but I also don't think it's a good idea to stick one's head in the sand and refuse to consider other possibilities than one's personal beliefs. If everyone did that, no advances would be made in, well, anything. Nothing is completely infallible, not even scientifically proven "facts", so it's a bit silly and definitely impractical (imho) to refuse to adapt to the world as it is constantly changing.

    (btw, just so we're clear, that is so not a commentary on anyone who has posted here! I'm talking about the world at large... everyone who's posted in this thread has made logical and highly intelligent points about the pros and cons of the issue.)

    As for the matter of cloning, I have to agree with most of the other people who have posted so far in that I come from the school of thought that knowledge, including scientific research, is in itself neither good nor bad; the moral question lies in how we use it. Knowledge is power, and there are always some who use their power for... well, I don't want to say "evil", because that sounds a tad melodramatic, but there are always those who use their power irresponsibly for personal gain. On the other hand, there are many who use their power responsibly to help others.

    The bottom line is, the only way to completely get rid of the problem is to deny people access to knowledge. If we do that, we eliminate the possibility for evil, but we also eliminate the possibility for good. Either way, it's a mixed bag. I prefer to accept the possibility that some people may use cloning selfishly and for ill purposes in exchange for the possibility that some people will use the technology thoughtfully and for the benefit of others.

    As far as cloning pets/loved ones/etc., I personally find the idea morbid and creepifying, but I don't feel qualified to judge the issue on a larger moral scale than just my own opinion (which, being honest with myself here, isn't worth all that much... lol).
     
  12. kreleia

    kreleia Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2000
    Cool debate. :)

    One of the main points seems to be overlooked as well, is that cloning is only duplicating the APPEARANCE of someone or something. We already have natural clones walking this world - they're called identical twins. And, yeah, while that was a *natural* process, and they're still "original and new" people (not copied from someone already in existence), everyone knows that identical twins are two completely different people, despite how they look.

    What religions, staunch conservative organizations and the millions of unbelievably gullible people (who think they can bring back George or Fido) need to understand is that a person or pet can never TRULY be duplicated. Sure, they can look the same, but undoubtably there WILL be differences in personality, point of view, likes and dislikes... the cloned person or pet is still a different and new person or pet, and they're not going to be exactly what the widow or owner wants them to be. IMHO, to try to force a clone to be a person/pet that already lived is extremely unfair. It robs them completely of developing their own opinions and learning from experience. And you KNOW that's what people who pay to have cloning done are trying to do.

    Personally, I'm against cloning. Not so much for the medical reasons - which I actually support, and so find myself very conflicted - but because of the foolish lengths people will go to to keep themselves from having to hurt, question or regret, and therefore learn. And what we need now, more than anything, is people who take the time to *think* and grow and learn from their past, rather than doing everything they can to remain in the past.

    **end philosophy session** :D

    **plink plink**
     
  13. Mara Jade Emperor's Hand

    Mara Jade Emperor's Hand Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 1999
    What religions, staunch conservative organizations and the millions of unbelievably gullible people (who think they can bring back George or Fido) need to understand is that a person or pet can never TRULY be duplicated. Sure, they can look the same, but undoubtably there WILL be differences in personality, point of view, likes and dislikes... the cloned person or pet is still a different and new person or pet, and they're not going to be exactly what the widow or owner wants them to be.


    I'm glad someone brought that up, especially since it's an important point in the whole "nature vs. nurture" issue. People (and pets, and every other living organism, for that matter) are so much more than their genetic makeup. To think that a clone of someone is going to be exactly the same as the original person (or pet, or whatever) just because they share DNA is simplistic to the extreme and just plain silly; people who believe that have read a few too many bad sci-fi novels. And to try to force a clone to behave like the original person/pet/whatever is, as I said before, morbid and creepifying to the extreme -- not to mention cruel and disrespectful to the clone as an individual.

    So I'm against the whole "let's bring Grandpa/Fido/whoever back from the dead" aspect of cloning. On the other hand, I fully support the "let's develop techniques so that people who need an organ replaced don't have to wait for a donor" aspect of the technology. I guess I tend to think that pursuing any field of research is better than abandoning it, because it gives us a chance to learn and grow, even if that means facing some truly ugly lessons in the process.
     
  14. ChoadsGirl

    ChoadsGirl Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Stem cell research is one of the greatest break throughs in medical technology. The use aborted fetus. However, as with everything man gets thier hands on, throughout history. We strive for pushing the edge of envelopes. Now in most cases this is not a bad thing. However, making use of what someone else has chosen to abort (which is another topic in and of itself) and cloning medical armies of doners is two different things. Once cloning is ok, who's to stop people, legally or illegally from saying, ohh, you need a heart? ok, give me a cell, forget that doner list, I'll just make you a new one.

    I envision a big sterile white room, with rows upon rows of bodies in capsuls being grown under grow lamps, plugged into machines and pumped full of stuff to make them the best doners they can be. Some missing body parts because they have been harvested already. So you pull the clones heart out for a transplant and then since cloning is so available you dispose of the rest of the body in the even MORE disposable world of the future.


    "The hearts of men are weak" We can not draw lines for ourselves as a population and not cross them, even with policing each other. There is always someone (and often times for the good of all) who pushes the edge of the envelope further and further.


    Steps down from my soap box.
     
  15. sideshow212

    sideshow212 Former RSA star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2002
    you know, they can grow just the organ, they don't have to grow a whole person.

    also, with the proper genetic manipulation, in some cases organs can be grown within the person whom the organ is intended...
     
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