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Arena The NBA Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by KnightWriter, Nov 16, 2006.

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Which team is the favorite to win the title?

  1. Boston Celtics

    10.5%
  2. Cleveland Cavaliers

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Dallas Mavericks

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Denver Nuggets

    42.1%
  5. Los Angeles Lakers

    5.3%
  6. Miami Heat

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Milwaukee Bucks

    36.8%
  8. Phoenix Suns

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Other

    5.3%
  1. LloydChristmas

    LloydChristmas Baseball and Three-Time Jedi Draft Champion star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 3, 2012
    I think the craziest thing about that deal though is that the Cleveland Cavaliers defeated the Golden State Warriors in 7 games for the 2016 NBA Championship.
     
  2. tom

    tom Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    at least cleveland fans have an excuse for not knowing how to win with dignity.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.
  3. LloydChristmas

    LloydChristmas Baseball and Three-Time Jedi Draft Champion star 5 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 3, 2012
    I'm excited tom! Just wanna keep talking about it! Not rubbing it in!
     
  4. tom

    tom Chosen One star 8

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    Mar 14, 2004
    i was just teasing. you should be excited!
     
  5. LloydChristmas

    LloydChristmas Baseball and Three-Time Jedi Draft Champion star 5 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
  6. xblackout

    xblackout Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2008
    It still doesn't feel real tbh

    But yeah I also don't really understand the OKC/Orlando trade. Just...???????
     
  7. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    So, listening to the takes over the last couple of days -- the consensus seems to be:

    1) Get Ibaka out since he wanted to be a significant third-banana, possibly a SECOND-banana (which... no), and this improves the chemistry since he's now in a place where he can do that,
    2) It gets a much better defensive team on the floor, which was problematic for them at times, especially in the playoffs, and
    3) I think I heard them say it will spread the floor better for the Durant/Westbrook combo?

    Having not followed anything at all about these players I can't say if this is true, but I believe it's what was said...
     
  8. Leoluca Randisi

    Leoluca Randisi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2014


    I think it is an awesome trade for the Knicks, pair him up with Carmello and that Russian kid and then Maybe sign Durrant and we might be the favorites in the east!
     
  9. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
  10. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001

    I still don't get why anyone thinks LeBron is a shoot-first player or must shoot last player. Do they not remember Bernie Mac extolling that LeBron asked for "court vision" in his pre-NBA coming out commercial from Nike?
     
  11. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    It's what most people are raised to believe is necessary. From an artistic standpoint, this divide makes complete sense to me. A majority of people believe in and expect one thing, and someone comes along to subvert those expectations. Jordan was an incredible, magnificent player, and probably the single best I will ever see in many ways. The thing is that he was ultimately a conventional player-- he built on what already existed in one form or another. Over at the NY Times, I read a comment on a story along these lines that observed how LeBron is closer to Bill Russell in how he sees the game, particularly from a team standpoint, and also in terms of court vision. I think that's true. Russell still goes against conventions in many ways, as he declined to score all that much and preferred tough defense, rebounding, and leadership. LeBron runs counter to a lot of people's expectations for how a great basketball player should play, and I really like that about him. I think his time in Miami cemented certain things, and when he came back, he had more confidence, wisdom, and overall awareness to put his best self into action on the floor and elsewhere.
     
  12. Leoluca Randisi

    Leoluca Randisi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2014


    do you mean Bernie Mac the Comedian and Actor who died of a Heart Attack I used to love his show It was kind of like Malcolm In The Middle with a Black cast!
     
  13. Mace Windu is GOAT

    Mace Windu is GOAT Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2016
    Nets on the rise with Chris LaVert. I believe he will become a real star in the league and lead Brooklyn to not- the- worst record in the NBA.
     
  14. PRENNTACULAR

    PRENNTACULAR VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2005
    if anything it crowds the floor, because victor is a sketchier shooter than ibaka. and it only makes them better defensively if Durant can mimic ibakas rim protection when he plays the 4. which we saw him do for small stretches, but is also asking a lot from him.
     
  15. NotSoScruffyLooking

    NotSoScruffyLooking Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2009
    I think LeBron James has a decent case for being a better player than Michael Jordan careerwise. Michael Jordan had more talented teammates and coaches, and thus won more titles, but LeBron James is a more diverse player and has done more with less, and beating the 2015-16 Warriors gives LeBron something Jordan doesn't, a title against a favored opponent. If LeBron can win one or two more titles before he retires, I think it is a sure thing.
     
  16. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    They're fundamentally different players, as Posnanski wrote about.

    Would like to have seen what James would done in Magic's place during the Greatest Game Nobody Ever Saw (until YouTube), though.
     
  17. NotSoScruffyLooking

    NotSoScruffyLooking Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 20, 2009
    Obviously they are fundamentally different, but that doesn't mean you can't argue which is better. If I had a hall of fame coach, I would probably prefer to build a team around Jordan, if not, I would probaly prefer to build my team around James.
     
  18. epic

    epic Ex Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 1999
    Jordan didn't win more titles just because he had more talented teammates and coaches. And Wade and Bosh were arguably as talented as Pippen and Rodman. Not a million miles off anyway. Jordan also would have won more titles easily if not for the baseball thing. LeBron is one of the best ever but he'll never be better than Jordan.
     
  19. NotSoScruffyLooking

    NotSoScruffyLooking Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2009
    You don't have a convincing argument of why Jordan is better than James. Wade and Bosh may be more talented than Pippen and Rodman, but they don't compliment James as well as Jordan's counterparts. And James was with Wade and Bosh for a limited time. Doing the baseball thing was Jordan's decision, and his to live with, it doesn't diminish anything James has done.
     
  20. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    Pippen was a better defender than either Wade or Bosh, and just on a different level overall from both of them. Remember, when Jordan left, they went to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals in 1994. When James left, both Cleveland and Miami fell apart.


    epic

    Why won't he be better than Jordan? Elaborate, please. To me, I'm not at all sure you can make a valid comparison. They're just different players and people. James is one of the most unique players ever to come into the game. Jordan was a phenomenal athlete and player, but I see him as evolutionary, not groundbreaking. The one aspect of his game that was almost unique was his remarkable need to win, beyond that of even most elite athletes. Other than that, Jordan built on what came before him. James is altogether different from most players who went before him, and I think that's the biggest reason why people have criticized him over the years.

    Edit: Also, you must remember that Jordan was burnt out after three straight titles and was seriously considering retirement even before his father was murdered. He needed a break. It isn't safe to assume that he would have just marched right along and won three or five more titles just because he showed up.

    To me, the six straight Finals appearances by James is almost incredible by itself. That's a ton of mental and physical energy.

    Jordan's best Finals performance was in 1993, partly because it had to be. I think Phoenix had the best team Chicago faced in their six Finals, and that was without Cedric Ceballos (an injury akin to Andrew Bogut's; his absence is forgotten, but Phoenix hammered Chicago in Chicago near the end of the regular season that year).

    I don't think Chicago would necessarily have waltzed to another title, and then another, and so on. They may have, but Jordan may also have reached a point physically and mentally where he couldn't go on without something giving (which it did in reality).
     
    ChefCurryWindu likes this.
  21. ChefCurryWindu

    ChefCurryWindu Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Agreed up above.

    I don't think Jordan and the Bulls would win easily. From what I've read, most of the players who have been on multiple Finals runs state how grueling those long seasons get physically and mentally. Injuries pile up, rosters change, etc. I remember Kerr stating at the end of their 3-peat in 98, the Bulls team was exhausted and running on fumes. And I remember reading somewhere that Jordan also was burnt out at the end of the first 3-peat. Same with the Lebron Heat, with Wade and Bosh stating all those deep playoff runs was wearing the team down, and they didn't seem to enjoy playing the game the last year of the Big 3 era.

    Also remember when Wade and Lebron joined up, Wade was leaving his prime, while James was entering his. Wade's best year with Lebron was in 2011, and in 2012 was his last year he played at a high level in the postseason. From then on, he fell apart physically. It would've been a treat to see peak 2009 Wade play with a peak Lebron in 2013. That wing combo would rival Jordan and Pippen in their heyday, and you could argue it'd be slightly better offensively.

    Houston also matched up against Chicago. Hakeem always gave the Bulls problems, so there was a chance they could beat Chicago in a series. Unfortunately, Houston and Chicago never met, making it one of the few Finals series we could have seen(alongside Cleveland vs LA in 2009).
     
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  22. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    Well put. In many ways, I think LeBron's seven Finals overall and six in a row are his greatest accomplishment to date. Somehow, people expect more Finals appearances in the future as well. That's asking a lot.

    The best book to date on Jordan that I'm aware of is probably Roland Lazenby's biography of him, which I've read a couple times. Jordan was burnt out after the first three-peat, and the team was falling apart in general by 1998. They got pushed to a seventh game for only the second time in Jordan's six Finals years (in the ECF), and the first since 1992. Indiana also fared much better than did New York in Game 7, and easily could have finished off the Bulls that day. Relations with Jerry Krause had also become intolerable for both Jordan and Phil Jackson by 1998, and Jerry Reindsorf was not really prepared to pay what would have been necessary to keep the team together.

    I think one reason Chicago was able to overcome Utah in 1998 (aside from the obvious Jordan-related reasons) is because Utah was also an older team. Had Chicago had to face the 2000 Los Angeles Lakers, there was no way for them. They lucked out in not having to face a more youthful, energetic team later in their run. That doesn't take away at all from what they achieved, but I think it should be taken into account.
     
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  23. Dark Lord Of The Empire

    Dark Lord Of The Empire Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2013
    I don't see how the Bulls wouldn't have won in '94 had Jordan played. Minus Jordan that year they were still a great team and right in the thick of things. They finished only 2 games behind where they finished the previous year. Pippen was in **** the world mode and they got All-Star years out of Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong. Kukoc was starting to come into his own, and Phil Jackson was still the coach. If you put Jordan on there for the full year, they certainly get past the Knicks and into the Finals. Now I do think Chicago/Houston would have been an epic series, and I see it going 7 games, but I do see the Bulls taking it. It comes down to the fact that the Bulls have two HOF players versus one on the Rockets (no Drexler yet for them that year).
    I think the case could be made that '95 would have been the year where they don't make it back (still assuming Jordan is playing all the way through) because the roster was changing over. I makes one wonder if Grant still would have signed with Orlando or not, and what would have happened with Rodman's career the next year, had he never gone to the Bulls.
     
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  24. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    Well, again-- did you read anything I wrote? Jordan was burnt out and generally exhausted on multiple levels. Numbers don't play the game-- people do.

    How do you account for this?
     
  25. Dark Lord Of The Empire

    Dark Lord Of The Empire Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2013
    Not sure why you're getting so defensive over it. I'm simply saying I see valid reasons why the Bulls could have won 4 in a row. I'm fully aware that people play the game, and Jordan would have had 3 other people that were all
    stars on his team in '94 to help him out, as well as the coach who probably understands people better than any other. I really don't care whether people say he was burned out or not. Jordan was the ultimate competitor and would have continued to put in the work necessary to continue to win. If guys like Magic and LeBron could make a bunch of finals in a row, no reason to think that Jordan could not have continued to. I bet if you talked to them all in private, they would tell you how exhausted they were.but the thing with elite athletes like these, is they have an extra gear that the rest of us don't have. That's part of what makes them great. There are many examples of this throughout sports history, where a guy who was exhausted, or playing hurt, or fighting sickness, was able to overcome and achieve incredible things. Jordan himself did such a thing against Utah while battling the flu. Somehow he still went out and dominated. No reason to think '94 would have been any different. So I do agree that the game is played by people, but people who are on a whole other level. Jordan, who is one of the greatest athletes of all time, would have found a way too get it done in '94. Just my humble opinion.
     
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