Amph [NERRRD] Observations, rhetorical questions, comments & 55 Years of Star Trek (General Thread)

It was only about 3 years.

 

I'm nostalgic for Generations, too, and I'm 99% sure it was the first Trek film I saw. I guess one could make a decent argument for it being the most "true" to Roddenberry (though wasn't he heavily involved in TMP?), but to say he was behind a fair share of crap is understating it.

The Nexus makes no sense and the way Picard employed it makes no sense. While a few of the Data jokes are amusing, his antics become grating and his personality is regressed for plot convenience (e.g., pushing Crusher overboard is a season 1 Data thing at best). The prologue is a Shatner ego trip (as evidenced by Nimoy and Kelly refusing to reprise their roles because they were reduced to bit parts). Picard's brother and nephew dying is such a cheap emotional shot and it completely ruins the ending of "Family" (thankfully it doesn't for me because I simply ignore Generations' addition). Dying in a fire on 24th-century Earth? Was it a Q-caused fire? Ugh.

The Duras sisters-- okay, I get it. Someone wanted a returning villain to kill off and the actors were available. Or something. But they were always pretty pathetic. In their introduction they were propping up a little boy with a dubious claim as the Duras heir. What's even more pathetic is the Enterprise-D's demise. The saucer crash is pretty great; that's not my issue. It's that it was taken out by an aging bird-of-prey. Yeah, they knew the "shield modulation," but the ships shields had been breached before in the TV series. Similarly to the original Enterprise, it's disappointing to see the ship go down against a threat that doesn't compare to many it had prevailed over.

And Kirk's death. It's a common fan complaint that he should've "died on the bridge" (he did lololol) or the end of STVI should've been the end of the character. While I don't necessarily disagree with the latter, I think killing him onscreen was fine. I didn't even mind that his death was something he could've easily escaped in any non-marked-for-death script. What I minded was that his death was pointless and stupid. Going back to the whole Nexus making no sense, it made no sense for Picard to travel back to that point where he'd have to confront Soran with minutes to spare and only a 70-year-old man for backup.

I originally typed one long paragraph. Spaces added to spare eyes.

 

I heard the Paramount suits just wanted Roddenberry away from the ST film franchise, and ended up giving TNG to him as a consolidation prize, because he kept pitching his "The Klingons use the Guardian of Forever to save JFK, and the crew of the Enterprise has to stop them in order for the Federation to come about" plot idea as possible premises for Treks II, III. and IV.

 

Yeah that was funny, the Enterprise D was hit and then Riker orders them to fire back and you see one phaser fire and then later one torpedo. REALLY?! You're telling me a Galaxy class starship can't unleash hell?

 

Oh, I forgot to mention a really bad part. Picard's weird Victorian Christmas fantasy in the Nexus. Ewgh. Why would Guinan have ever appeared? How did Picard enter Kirk's fantasy universe (the movie literally just cuts from Picard in his fantasy to him in Kirk's)? How is there a natural phenomenon that caters to the whims of every living thing that enters it? What determines who survives encountering it? Why and how did Soran and Guinan ever leave?

 

Yeah, the Enterprise-D's destruction was always a low point of the movie. Not sure if any outside sources ever referenced that whoops, the VISOR could be a security breach (perhaps one reason the next movie has Geordi with cybernetic eyes), but even without shields you'd think the Federation flagship could take on an old Klingon ship. But there were always budget constraints, which is why outside of Best of Both Worlds we never really see a Galaxy-class let loose. Like how DS9 could let loose with phaser shots and torpedoes everywhere, in theory the saucer section and the torpedo bay should be able to fire at least a dozen shots. And why it came down to a technical glitch that won them the battle. It was an alternate timeline, but I remember in Yesterday's Enterprise Tasha going on about the Enterprise's combat abilities. Though it was nice to see the saucer section used as an escape vehicle.

Picard's family dying is just another heavy-handed plot to hammer in the mortality angle. Although not sure if it was a book or a forum discussion, but I have the vague notion that they died in a fire because the vineyard was old-fashioned, too old-fashioned to have modern fire suppression systems, but that's too depressing a thought. And its not like the place was in the middle of a desert with no phone when Picard last visited.

Generations isn't my favorite movie, although it does come off as an extended TV episode, but honestly, if I had to choose between a great series finale and a great movie, I'd prefer All Good Things. Though points for referencing plots and even minor scenes from years ago (Data's emotion chip, a joke Geordi mentioned on Farpoint Station, that sort of thing). Data pushing Crusher into the ocean is a bit much, but "remove plank" is pretty funny.

I remember one author has used Guinan's visit to the Nexus to justify her temporal sense (having a part of herself outside of normal time allows her to retain memories of other timelines).

Oh well, Generations isn't a great movie, but at least its not as bad as most of Final Frontier or all of Insurrection, low praise that that is. At least they saved up all the good parts for First Contact then (shiny new ship, great plot, etc.).

 

My assumption is that a Galaxy usually pumps all its reactor power into one phaser array to fire one big deadly shot, and that if it took multiple shots the energy would be dispersed into several weaker beams.

 

I'm glad they changed the Ferengi from "villains" to something more believable. Ferengi as villains would've equated to a Gungan as a Sith Lord.

I loved Quark's character in Deep Space Nine, and particularly the roles his brother and nephew played as well.

 

Isn't there a theory that Picard never left the Nexus, and the resulting three movies are his own fantasies? Makes sense I guess in some ways. He defeats the Borg almost single handedly in FC, meets the literal girl of his dreams in Insurrection, and makes peace with the Romulans in Nemesis.

 

Uh, I haven't put much thought into any of TNG films, but isn't Insurrection about the fountain of youth, immortality, time and perception of time?

Isn't First Contact about revenge and humanity vs machine?

I don't want to think about what Nemesis was about. Something about clones, nature vs nurture, I don't know.

It is? I've never spent even two seconds thinking about it, I just don't care. It's a fantasy, the Nexus is magic, it's a dream, it's a wish. It's so fantastical that it's pretty obvious that one shouldn't bother thinking about it critically.


Like this:

Jesus Christ, who cares?

What phaser arrays on the nacelles and belly? I've never even heard of them. Why the hell would the nacelles have phaser arrays? Is this the product of some Star Trek EU cross-section thing?

I figured the way it was commonly presented was accurate to its actual capabilities.

To compare it to Star Wars, we never see an ISD cut loose (IIRC they don't do anything after disabling the Tantive IV) and the Executor does absolutely nothing.

I like that it came off as an extended TV episode, I wish the rest of the movies followed suit. Insurrection sorta does with the plot and the close relationships between the crew, but in the worst ways (terrible, overplayed humor) and with terrible continuity (Data floating and "I've never kissed you with a beard before!"). Maybe if Insurrection was a bit more serious and had better continuity it would come off better. Nemesis was made by a guy who has never seen an episode of TNG and it shows.

 

I don't see how the Nexus was a problem. And hasn't there been quite a few lucky shots that damaged something on the Enterprise.

Yeah, but I think the comment was post TOS.

I hadn't hear that. I know it was largely because the script for the first film kept changing, even after it was decided to be a feature film and not just to include Kirk and Spock in prominent roles.

Guinan appeared because part of her was left behind when the Enterprise B's transporters pulled the survivors of the Lakul out of the Nexus. But unlike when Kirk and Riker were split in two, Guinan was more of a ghost. Picard finding Kirk was unexplained, but I believe that Guinan moved him there.

No, but people still die in house fires in the real world. Even with cell phones.

 

The "ghost" of Guinan was a much younger version who had only met Picard during "Time's Arrow." She would not have been the Guinan he knew.

Yeah, who cares about internal logic and consistency? We're not supposed to think about it? It's Star Trek, not Transformers 4.

 

Internal logic of a magic "energy ribbon", or whatever the hell it was called. I sure as hell didn't spend one second thinking about it, and I nitpick all the time, so I can sympathize, but in this case I'm not feeling it.

Is it really that important how any of that happens? Is it at all important to the story? Is it important to you, personally? Do you have a problem with the portrayal of a magic "energy ribbon" dreamland being able to do such things? Do you disagree with magic energy ribbons on a personal level?

What was ewgh about Picard's Christmas fantasy? After the last Picards died earlier in the film, and with the knowledge that Picard's career prevented him from having a family, some of sort of idealized Victorian Christmas fantasy seems about fine to me.

How did Guinan appear? She was there before (she mentioned that a part of you always stays behind, because something so wonderful is hard to leave), and she's a close friend of Picard's. Picard was having a hard time buying the Christmas fantasy as "real", and Guinan pops up. I don't think that's a coincidence, I think maybe Picard's dissonance summoned Guinan's image (because it's a magical place where you can get whatever you want, go wherever you want, Guinan even says this, and Kirk does it, too). I don't have a hard time buying that at all.

How did Picard enter Kirk's fantasy? Well, it's magic and Picard can go wherever he wants. How did Soran and Guinan leave? Their bodies were transported out, just as they were entering the Nexus. I don't have a hard time with it, personally.

Sure, you can think about it, but as literal in-universe magic I think you can give it a break. I'm not seeing the egregious offense here, or any offense.

 

My problem with Picard's Victorian fantasy is that it depicts a highly conservative family life. It's unrealistic that Picard, an atheist secular humanist socialist man born in the 24th (23rd?) century who rebelled against his conservative (for the times) father, would idealize such a thing. While TNG and the movie touched on him regretting not having a family, the faux Dickensian nonsense shouldn't have been it. There was no indication that just because he at times wanted children that he'd want it to be so conventional. The stereotypical Victorian lifestyle was antithetical to his ideals. It seemed lazy on the part of the writers to stick an English French guy in a setting that's one of the top three things people think of when they think "English."

And I know we'll never agree about the Nexus. But I prefer "magic" to have defined limits, to make sense within the universe (is there anything comparable to the Nexus in the TNG era? Holodecks and the like are artificial) and for those limits to not be vague and thrown out to suit to plot ("you can go anywhere" = barely in time to stop Soran).

 

Fair enough, I shouldn't have been so confrontational. The following is just an addendum, not really an attempt to dispute your opinion.

I've never really had a problem with Picard's Victorian Christmas, though I admit I've always felt there was something slightly off. Conservative family life seems right up Picard's alley to me, he seems super conservative, super reserved in his personal life, he's so disciplined and restrained, he's stuffy. Picard is as straight-laced as they come. That Ardra/Devil impostor from "Devil's Due", wore something very similar in an attempt to seduce Picard, saying she would be prim and proper, and chaste, until she lets Picard "win" her over.

It just seems similar to some of Picard's other likes, he likes olden things. Old books. Shakespeare. Tea, Earl Grey, hot. That old detective character, Dixie Hill. I think he likes things that are quaint.

And though Picard is an atheist and secularist, I don't think he's a timmo atheist that just can't abide by something that is in any way tangentially related to religion.

I wouldn't be surprised if Picard has Dickens next to Shakespeare.

I liked the way Picard doesn't quite buy the fantasy. It reminded me of the episode "The Bonding".

I think there are things comparable to the Nexus in TNG, it's your basic "spatial anomaly" with magic. It doesn't really seem that "out there" to me. In TNG there are "clouds" that possess bodies, "voids" with giant omnipotent aliens that have faces that take up the entire viewscreen, the Q, Wesley's next dimension crap, Dr. Crusher's warp bubble reality where everything is disappearing, the "phenomenon" that has 2-D lifeforms that take away Troi's powers for some reason, the Silicon Avatar, the subspace rift from "Schisms" that play out like nightmares, the ghost guy Ronin from "Sub Rosa" playing out some fantasy for Beverly, Worf being able to shift between parallel universes so we can see Worf married to Troi, etc. The Nexus seems like it fit in there somewhere, admittedly more with the terrible ideas from the earlier seasons.

You know, you just reminded me that I did notice that Picard had the ability to go anywhere, anytime, and he chooses to give himself like 15 minutes. It did give me a momentary "wut", but I moved on quickly. I didn't think about it for more than a second, and I guess it's more dramatic that way than having him go back further and just stop the plot before it really starts.

There's plenty I don't like about Generations, though. Kirk, I know he's a vital part of the story as it is written, but I didn't like his involvement at all. Thankfully it was a passing of the torch. The Duras sisters, yeah they're just weak. Some of Data's emotional stuff was funny, I remember laughing quite a bit as an 8 year old in the theater (my 15 year old brother was not amused), but they do overplay it. The death of Picard's family was cheap and contrived, but at least it gave Troi something to do, that felt like a moment from the show, Picard stifling his feelings and Troi counseling him through it.

Even those complaints are minor, for me. I don't think Generations is bad, it's just not great, it's merely pretty decent.

 

I don't think it's "bad" per se (especially compared to the latter two TNG films and Abrams). Just solidly mediocre and a very disappointing followup to the fantastic "All Good Things..."

 

Oh it's a baby one. I have an Enterprise-E model I did myself that's about a foot long sitting on my desk. My dad also has tons he did when Trek was huge in the 90's with TNG but they're in storage. He did the best looking Enterprise-D I've ever seen, if I have time I'll post pics.

We also did an Enterprise-A with lights that was huge, don't know if I have that one still.

 

I kind of hate you.


I really, really wanted these, but I just couldn't stomach $25.00 per ship. I don't think you can get them at news stands in Canada, so you can't even buy them individually, which is a shame. Having 30 plus classes of Federation starships lined up on my shelf would be awesome. Hell, even just having all nine Enterprises would look pretty impressive.