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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC new best friends club thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by tom, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. Healer_Leona

    Healer_Leona Squirrel Wrangler of Fun & Games star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2000
    Same here. Numbers were never my friends. Then add some letters and other odd signs and I get totally lost.
     
  2. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Ah, but you've missed out on the great benefit of mathematics - no one sitting next to you on an airplane ever, ever wants to find out more about what you do for a living.

    Incidentally, they never let me make the consider this major pitches to the undergrads, for some reason.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  3. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    I sucked at math in school. I just didn't get it. I remember being in an argument with the teacher:
    "Why can't I divide by 0?"
    "You just can't!"
    "That's not a reason! Your system sucks!"
     
  4. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    It’s to keep you on a straight path. According to my calculator, to divide by 0 is to Err.
     
  5. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    In you teacher's defense, and I'm only halfway on their side because I think "Because I said so" is a bad argument to give a student unless you admit the argument is beyond the scope of the material they would understand, "why can't I divide by 0?" can pierce to the very heart of the nature of mathematics itself.

    For example, if division by zero makes sense, I can tell you, right now, that in order for mathematical pseudo-fallacies to be avoided (e.g. the infamous "proof" that 1=2) the structural rules of the objects we're dealing with are such that we will necessarily have only one element (this is that zero ring thing I mentioned). But that's because, in some ways, our rules for mathematical objects were built up around common sense notions of mathematical operations that were slowly formalized over literal millennia - some of the earliest civilizations had a rudimentary notion of division before they had an idea of zero, for example, so of course they're not going to try and formalize division by a thing they don't have.

    But what even does it mean to have these common sense notions? Are they handy rules for interpreting our interactions with the physical world, arbitrary mental constructs humans interpret onto meaningful (social or metaphysical) structures, actually existing ontological entities that are reflected in the phenomenal world, something else entirely? Nobody actually knows (hence the philosophy of mathematics is even a thing), but it could be that the network of relational structures satisfied by our notion of zero is fundamentally incompatible with the network of relational structures satisfied by our notions of division and the two simply cannot ever be reconciled within the current mathematical framework without breeding contradictions, which we view as anathema because we have been conditioned to perceive reality as an essentially coherent whole, and mathematicians, rightly or wrongly, have built up their structural apparatus on a logical framework which excludes formal contradictions. Attempts to de-non-contradict (I... I need a better word for this) mathematics are a thing but have historically been... unsatisfying, from a broad applications perspective, and it's hard to say if that's because they literally cannot be made satisfying (as the Platonists would have it), we're biased (as some would have it), because mathematical relations are so subservient to other structures and interactions that the endeavor is doomed to play against the other systems and we cannot escape (as I would have it because I'm a jerk), or even some other thing entirely.

    But ultimately even independent of the real philosophical meat, not a lot of folks who work with math actually worry about this stuff, so most people generally never even bother trying to unpack it. As a result your teacher probably had the lack of division by zero presented to them as a commandment from on high, alongside "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt realize that Star Wars is bad," and thus when confronted with a rightly curious SuperWatto didn't have a better answer for you because the real answer is an unsatisfying deep dive into human history which threatens to invalidate the totality of our experiences under the crushing weight of humanity's collective inability to settle on a consensus about anything, with a particular emphasis on numbers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  6. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Thank you Ramza. I finally got a satisfying answer.
    Very satisfying, because you clearly went out of your way to include "Star Wars is bad".
     
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  7. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
    I'm terrible in many things, including math. :p
     
  8. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    s.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  9. Zapdos

    Zapdos Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2013
  10. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Ramza, I slammed my brain into your wall of text while attempting to understand it. My cerebral cortex exploded on contact, and then the whole thing slid down to lie in a mushy puddle at the bottom. :(
     
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  11. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    The tl;dr is our current understanding of the rules of mathematics means the "price" of dividing by zero is too great to be of much use (you get stuck in incredibly boring structures), but there's a potential philosophical chicken and egg problem because those rules may just be by-products of folks deciding you can't divide by zero. Or everything is fine because there's a "correct" math that lives in metaphysical ontology land and our rules reflect that. Or something else entirely.

    I probably should have just stuck with that but I got in a groove. :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  12. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    And what’s the tl;dr version of that?

    I’m hoping we end up at potato.
     
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  13. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Me am play gods.
     
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  14. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Oh yes, of course!
     
  15. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Why is the decimal system so bad at fractions ? I mean if you want to express a third it's 0.333333333 recurring but it's never accurate .
     
  16. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Because decimal notation isn't meant to give you a nice representation of a fraction - that's what fractional notation is for. Decimals are most useful for approximate representations of irrationals, and some calculations where the precision of the full expression isn't required*. For example, suppose I want to multiply a measurement by a rational number where recurrence only begins in the 400th decimal position - I doubt my measurement is that accurate, so I would use a truncated decimal approximation and still stay well within acceptable error.

    So the question shouldn't be "What's the use of .3 repeating?" it's "When would I be more interested in .3 repeating than 1/3?" and, frankly, these days the answer is "not very often."

    Edit: *I'd be a bad logician if I didn't point out that the theory of decimal representation is also useful for arguments about the size of certain infinite objects but that has less to do with the specific decimals than with the theoretical notion that one "could" write decimals, if that makes any sense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
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  17. mrsvos

    mrsvos Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2005
    I just have to have a wedding brag. My daughter walked down the isle to a Final Fantasy theme, played Pokemon Go while eating her cake and played The Rains of Castamere during dinner. I'm a proud Mom.
     
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m OK at math, at least until I’m asked to describe the five layers of the TCP/IP protocol in detail and have to give a description of 32-bit IP addresses and how binary works.

    Yes, I’m taking a networking course right now, why do you ask? :p

    I remember getting irritated with my college roommate when we were taking a college algebra course together, and she would want to know why [6-(6-7(7-5)+3)]+3 = 14 . My answer would be, because it is, OK? Just move on. She took forever on math tests because she would ask “why” on every problem.
     
  19. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Me & math, a dramatization...



    [​IMG].
     
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  20. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I just get distracted by erotic cakes.
     
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  21. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Hi bezzies,

    Well I am a single mother again, this time until Thursday night, as the Mrs is in a Chicago for work.

    P.S. @Rylo Ken can you make sure she doesn’t get shot to death? I’ve done the life insurance Vs her still alive calculations and I need her alive for a while longer.
     
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  22. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    I've gone 25 years in this city without getting shot, but mostly because I never leave the house.
     
  23. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
    What kind of acid trip inspired your new avatar? :p
     
  24. Zapdos

    Zapdos Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2013
    sup besties hows stuff
     
  25. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SFTC VII + Deadpool BOFF star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000
    I'm on the fence as to whether or not to buy more beer... what's left in my fridge could be enough, or not.