BTS New info regarding Midiclorian debate: GL initially felt that anyone could learn the Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by grimlockbedi, May 25, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    My opinions are my own. I don't really care what flies with who.

    Although Yoda is referred to as a warrior in Empire, so his status is a given even then. He downplays the importance of being a warrior, but never denies that he was one.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, May 26, 2013
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Well, it is an order of knights, so I would say they'd have to be warriors on some level.
  3. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    So true.
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  4. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    So false.
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  5. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I can't even imagine a world in which GL had an army of yes men creating the OT. Ick.
  6. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    This.
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  7. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    Might have got a slightly more complex story than "untrained farmboy goes out and destroys the biggest weapon of the biggest empire, because he's 'special'."

    You know, like the other 5 film's complexity!
  8. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Exactly. It's called writing. Sometimes it's a long process.
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think, regardless of the way one looks at it, it's always been clear that only some people will have the capacity to be Jedi. This was made pretty explicit in Empire when -- as Luke departs to Cloud City -- Obi-Wan laments that Luke was "their last hope" which Yoda replies that "there is another." If there were no inherent differences in ability to use the Force, then this statement would be meaningless. Moreover, I think that Obi-Wan and Yoda would likely have found someone else to train besides Anakin's children.

    Certainly, the lines "the Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him " and "the Force runs strong in my family" indicates a genetic component. There's no reason for both the Emperor and Obi-Wan to have known that Anakin's children would have been a threat to him were it not so.

    Additionally, consider that midichlorians represent only a person's potential to use the Force. A potential which must be trained and honed. Anakin in ROTS, for example, has still not reached his full potential as Sidious notes that "Darth Vader will become more powerful" and that Obi-Wan, who has a lower midichlorian count, is able to decisively defeat Anakin. Potential alone will not make one the best, but it can often but a cap on how far you'll get. If you don't have an inherent potential to play basketball, then you'll never make the NBA, no matter how much you train, because they are elite -- the best of the best. I imagine the Jedi are similar -- they are elite warriors.

    Also, note that Qui-Gon says that all living cells have midichlorians. Therefore, by default, everyone has the potential to use the Force. Some just moreso than others.
  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Additionally, those lines ("that boy is our last hope" and "they would be a threat to him") could mean that they were counting on Luke because (1) they're time-constrained and have already sunk their last years in the mortal realm into training this guy and (2) Luke has a unique "in" with Vader, which any other person wouldn't. Vader has a reason to take Luke one step at a time, while anyone else - not related to Vader - he might be more likely to just kill right off the bat. At that point in the story, Leia was in danger too, which could be taken for why Ben implicitly discounts her as a 'hope' here, except that Yoda says the opposite. Out of universe, it's probably because Leia wasn't the hope; in universe, maybe Yoda has more faith in the unpredictability of events? My point is, those lines might have more to do with familial relationships than actual Force-using-levels (though they could certainly be about both).
  11. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2

    [IMG]

    "In fact this is so genius, I have a feeling that George Lucas had nothing to do with it and probably fought against putting it in the movie."
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  12. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    If you want the story of Mace Windy and the Jedi-Bendu, then go ahead.
  13. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    The best would be, as one could have implied in the OT, that anyone had the potential to wield the Force, but only a bare bare minimum 0.00000000000000001% of the galaxy sentinents had the mental fortitude and strength of will to do so, as well as the patience to learn and train for years.

    --------------------

    or in Luke's case the maximum of two years :p
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  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't know that I believe that logic. Twenty years passed between Vader's rise and Luke beginning his training. If they had all this time, then why didn't they train anyone in between? Instead, Obi-Wan waited and watched over Luke. Moreover, if Luke having an "in" with Vader was so important, then why didn't they tell him about this relationship? They certainly didn't expect Vader to reveal it in ESB since Yoda said it was unexpected. Furthermore, they never seemed to have paused to consider that Luke might be unwilling to fight his father. Obi-Wan himself says that if Luke can't kill his father than the Emperor will have already won.

    This also doesn't address the fact that Luke himself acknowledges that "the Force is strong" in his family. For it to be strong, this indicates that the Skywalker family has a natural predilection towards abilities in the Force. TPM and the midichlorians don't change that since, as Qui-Gon notes, midichlorians reside in all living cells. But some people are born with more natural affinity than others. ROTJ made that pretty clear.

    The best analogy I can think of is height and basketball. Almost everyone who plays in the NBA is extremely tall. Wikipedia lists the average height at about 6 feet 7 inches tall. The average height of the American male is 5 feet and 9 or ten inches. The shortest NBA player ever was 5 feet three inches. Clearly, then, anyone of any height can (theoretically) play in the NBA. But being tall is certainly going to help. I imagine being a Jedi is similar to this, but perhaps more extreme since Force sensitivity offers a whole host of benefits.

    But honestly, I've always found the idea that anyone can reasonably be a Jedi to be a bit absurd because if it was possible, surely everyone would do it? It grants you the power of telekinesis. That alone is worth years of dedicated training. When you add on the other abilities a Jedi is granted, there's no reason for everyone not to be trained if it is achievable for anyone. And it being a matter of belief also seems rather dubious to me. When you see Yoda lift an X-wing out of a swamp or Luke shoot out of the carbonite chamber at top speed, it gets pretty difficult not to believe. At that point, disbelief is rather silly when the evidence is right in front of you.
  15. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Have you never heard the term revision. A story at the end is almost always different from the story at the beginning. You learn what works and what doesn't through trial and error. Without Mace Windy and the Jedi Bendu we would never have Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Knights. It happens with all stories.
  16. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Moving to saga.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, May 27, 2013
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  17. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Silly Darth Chiznuk! Don't you know that REAL writers pen their whole story from beginning to end, in permanent ink?
  18. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    That argument would totally make sense if Lucas didn't write and direct the first movie.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Those qualities aren't so rare as you seem to believe. At the very least there would be many with the potential to have them.
  20. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    I'm going to repost something I said in another thread. Suffice to say, I agree. And furthermore...

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  21. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    Those qualities aren't so rare as you seem to believe. At the very least there would be many with the potential to have them.
    ------------

    I never said what you quoted me as saying.
  22. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Whoa, whoa I thought it was common knowledge that George Lucas had no influence over the first film and that it was all Kas... oh wait. :p
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Sorry, I was thrown off by your quoting method, I thought that was you. [face_blush]
  24. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Everyone has midichlorians, everyone can still access the Force, if they tried.

    It's just easier if you have more midichlorians... but having more midichlorians and having it easier also means you're more tempted by the dark side.
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  25. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    It was just a hypothesis. You poked some holes in it. Mainly I was concerned with the idea that Luke (and The Other) were supposed to be Big Damn Galactic Destiny Heroes from the start, as opposed to being relevant to one particular situation with one particular man. Is Luke the "only" hope because he's just so powerful, or because he's pretty powerful but extremely relevant to all the parties involved (Vader, Ben, Yoda, etc)? So, just for the sake of argument:

    Q: Twenty years passed between Vader's rise and Luke beginning his training. If they had all this time, then why didn't they train anyone in between?

    A: They're both in exile, and could probably easily be detected by the Empire if they started using the Force a lot and/or looking for trainees. Plus, they already know where Luke and The Other are.

    Q: Moreover, if Luke having an "in" with Vader was so important, then why didn't they tell him about this relationship? They certainly didn't expect Vader to reveal it in ESB since Yoda said it was unexpected.

    A: Maybe they planned to, but Luke left before they considered his training complete, and given his failure in the cave, maybe part of that training would have been learning to accept his father as Vader?

    Q: Furthermore, they never seemed to have paused to consider that Luke might be unwilling to fight his father.

    A: Again, he left before they finished his training. Plus, they let him go to the Emperor in ROTJ after he says he can't kill his own father. I do think they were intending him to kill Vader, but I also think that maybe by that point they just trusted him to do whatever was needed in the situation and figure it out.

    I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said regarding Jedihood and Force use. The basketball analogy is one I've used myself. I think the relevant attributes for being a Jedi are probably, like, mental fortitude and willingness to be open to Campbell-esque "one with the universe" experiences. And I don't think that's such a common thing, especially when we're talking about the level where one could "see" the remote, for example. It's hard to use those notions to unlock the powers of the universe. Most people probably wouldn't bother. Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster, to the minds of 90% of the galactic population.
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