Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by grimlockbedi, May 25, 2013.
Strange defense of a set of movies that introduces us to a "chosen one"
Because any criticism of OT plot points means I'm defending another set of films? The context of my statement indicates I'm not fully satisfied with how either of the two sets of movies handled the Force being passed on. Hence the words "likewise weak." Likewise means "in the same or similar way."
I stand corrected
I think it was necessary for the plot that not everyone could learn to use the Force. Where would the suspense be if everyone in the galaxy could learn the ways of the Jedi and take Vader down? It makes for a better story to have the hopes of all people resting on the questionable strength of Luke Skywalker.
I don't agree.
Clearly Vader and the Emperor would be very formidable opponents regardless. Even Yoda says "do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." Sure, anyone could try to take them down. But very few would be able to spar against them successfully. One thing to recognize is that it's not Luke's strength as a warrior that makes his mission (which isn't even the thing that results in the victory of the Alliance - the strike team plus Lando and Wedge do that) successful. Luke's goal wasn't even to kill Vader and his Emperor. His success depends on a combination of his willingness to stand up for what he believes is the right course of action (throwing down his sword instead of being made into a puppet by his anger and by extension the Emperor's goading), his personal connection to Vader (if he weren't the Son of Skywalker, he'd have never ended up in the Throne Room), and Vader's compassion.
Could he have bested them in a duel? He was closer to it in ROTJ than ESB, but that's not really the point.
Also, a 1998 registration date? Sweet.
I always thought the force chose who to give special powers. Some were simply destined to learn its ways.
Why would it chose the Skywalkers? I don't know and I don't want to know. I like the mystery and speculation. The force is supposed to move in mysterious ways beyond our full understanding.
What I do know however is that force sensitivity is not only a blessing, but also a curse. Those who use the force always seem to draw danger to themselves.
@Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, I see where you're coming from, but I still think it's a better story if the Force is only available to a tiny group. And when I referred to Luke's strength, I didn't mean just his strength as a warrior or his strength with the Force, but his strength of character.
Yeah, 98 was a while ago. I stopped coming here around 00 cuz it wasn't fun anymore and I just came back a few days ago. It was a big surprise when I tried my user name and password and they still worked.
(Taken from the Ep VII forum)
The second quote has actually made me re-think the debate a bit. The first and third refer to the Force running strongly in the Skywalker family (which mightn't necessarily be the case with all Force users, and IMHO, emphasises the importance of the family in the big picture), but the line "The Emperor knew that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him" suggests that inheriting Force sensitivity was far more general and likely.
Yes, you could say that Anakin's offspring would be a threat whether or not they were Force sensitive, but I think the obvious implication is that they would be potential Jedi.
But then there's another spanner in the works - at the time of ROTJ, Owen Lars was Obi-Wan Kenobi's brother, so why hadn't he ever been a Jedi Knight if it ran in the family?
I would guess force families happened quite frequently (and the talent probably died out after a few generations or so). But the force could still also only chose certain individuals.
Especially if they follow the Jedi code of no marriage/attachment malarchy. Maybe the force is actually more widespread through the GFFA than we have been lead to believe, and the Jedi didn't have children but took other people's as a way to limit the amount of force users in the GFFA?
Just a thought
As posted in the EPVII forum, the spanner can be explained. Some genetics are passed down to some children, but not others. (I'm talking between siblings). Maybe at the time Owen received more genetics from his non force sensitive mother and Obi received more from his force sensitive midichlorian infested father?
Something about the midis that I've been thinking about.
If Luke was assured to have a high midi count because his father had one then it means the following;
1) A high midi count is ALWAYS passed on. So one parent have say 500 and the other have 2500, ALL their children will have 2500.
2) This will have the effect of slowly raising the average midi count for the whole galaxy. So over 1000's of generations, the average number will keep increasing. So the galaxy is getting more and more Force-sensitive.
3) High numbers, like say 15 000, is probably rare, but if that someone did not become a Jedi and had two children, those will also have 15 000 midi count. If both children have two children each and this goes on for generations. Then you will have millions with this high count after a while.
4) Luke and Leia were the last hopes. If this was only due to their midi count and not due to their family connectio to Vader, then what about the relatives to the other Jedi?
Take the Jedi in the PT, all of their siblings will have as high a count as they have. The children of those siblings will also have as high a count if not higher. Sure that count is not AS high as Anakins children but high enough to be trained as Jedi.
So then Obi-Wan and Yoda would have loads of other candidates.
Bye for now.
That's why I think the force sensitivity disappears after a couple generations.
As for your 4): Maybe the Skywalkers are especially gifted?
Posted this in Ep VII, but I don't think discussing across two forums works, so I've deleted my post over there. Sorry.
Ah, but there you go - it seems that the Force runs more strongly in the Skywalker family than others, hence implying that they're more powerful, and somehow special.
So you can sort of have it both ways - there's a genetic element, but also the fantasy element which bestows greater powers upon those who are chosen, which might include entire families/bloodlines.
Which also explains why the Jedi &/or Sith couldn't just breed invincible armies of Force users.
hmmm I can see that. Genetics are passed down, but the Force ALSO has it's own will and has chosen Skywalker. I think that's what you're saying there, and I can go with that. However, your spanner was with regard to Owen and Obi and the fact that at the time of RotJ they were brothers and one was a Jedi while the other wasn't. I did clear that one up didn't I?
Yep. Hence why Luke & Leia are both strong in the Force (and why the Emperor would know that they would be powerful), but that the brother of the legendary & powerful Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't.
It does work on both levels - it's similar to an issue that only one kenobi and I were talking about in another thread regarding the different sides of the Force. The Force can be approached in both a sci-fi context (as a neutral element that can be harnessed and used/abused, and the 'Light' and 'Dark' sides are really a reflection of the user, not the Force itself) or in a fantasy context, in which the two sides of the Force do exist in-universe on a literal level, acting as representations of good and evil.
Point being, both approaches to the concept work, and neither is necessarily right or wrong. It really just comes down to what works best for the story at certain points, and if one approach doesn't necessarily contradict the other, all the better.
Why do we assume the Emperor thinks that threat is just the force. It's not the fact that Luke can use the force that ends up being the problem, it's that Luke's presence stirs up the good in Vader and the need to protect his son. It's Vader that turns out to be the threat.
This. Absolutely. What we 'know' of the Force is so limited that, actually, any number of possibilities are available. There are probably as many 'versions' of what the Force is as there are Star Wars fans.
That's a good point - perhaps Vader realising that he actually has children could ruin everything for Palps. Which, to a certain extent, it did.
However, it's the context in which the 'threat' to the Emperor was brought up which implies that Anakin's offspring would inherit the same Force abilities that he possessed:
So, we've got these exchanges in which Luke's own strength in the Force is emphasised, as well as Anakin's, plus Luke's 'anonymous' sister, the other Skywalker, being mentioned. Virtually everything that's going on in these scenes is about the power of the Force in the Skywalker family.
Amongst this dialogue is the line about Anakin's offspring - presented as an almost abstract concept, rather than the two actual offspring Anakin did produce, and in the past tense. What's being referred to is what the Emperor might have considered to be a threat twenty-three years beforehand, not the one he faced at the time of ROTJ, when Luke had all but proven himself as a Jedi.
Combined with all the talk about Force strength, the clear implication is that the threat the Emperor may have perceived from any infant offspring of Anakin Skywalker was related to Force potential, not the state of mind of his miserable, broken, iron-clad attack dog twenty-three years later.
Nub, I agree with you on this with one caveat, however: I think what this shows is that (at best) ROTJ was in a 'transitional' period between the 'classic' phase of ANH/TESB and that of the PT. 'Transitional' in that like ANH, Annikin or Anakin's purported sibling or siblings - whoever they were - were not powerful Jedi like he was, nor supposedly showed any Jedi potential. But what's different with ROTJ is the whole 'threat' to the Emperor aspect of any Skywalker offspring. This concept is absent from ANH and TESB. While the idea is ignored in SW/ANH, the hologram scene dialogue from TESB implies that the 'problem' with the son of Skywalker was the fact that he was in the process of becoming a Jedi at that point (training under Yoda), not the mere fact that (Annikin) Skywalker had a son or offspring to begin with.
Lucas likely changed his mind and gradually altered his views on the Force and its knowledge from ANH to ROTJ. Although it's possible, however unlikely, that the hereditary/genetic aspect had simply remained in the background and unaddressed before the third film. Stating that anyone can learn and use the Force (Lucas' interviews 1977) doesn't necessarily mean there is no hereditary/genetic factor explaining how strong you are with the Force. Although that's a bit misleading of course.
I tend to think that, along with Vader becoming Luke's father in ESB, the fact that Leia was written as "the Other" and Luke's sister in ROTJ, couldn't help but implying that Force's potential and abilities were somehow hereditary, the last 2 hopes being offsprings of a former very powerful Jedi.
That's why this excerpt from MOROTJ dated 1981 is really bewildering...It's basically in contradiction with the final screenplay, where everybody's not equally strong with the Force.
Indeed, all this must have been pretty confused in Kasdan's head !
In the other midi convo in the EPVII forum, I just had an idea regarding the Force and Midi's, and I'd like to share it here to see what you guys think.
Could it be possible the the Force and Midi's are completely different entities? The mystical power that is the Force can be passed down genetically, however if the Midi's don't choose to "speak" to the Force user then they will never be able to fully utilize the Force. Perhaps a Midi count is only representative over the persons ability to use the Force. Maybe this would be why some people are trained as Jedi and some are not, regardless of whether they have the Force or not? The Jedi train themselves to listen to the Midi's, and then do what they say as they follow the "will" of the Force, hence the light side. But the Sith manipulate the Midi's to make the force do what they want to do, hence the dark side.
My point is could it be possible that the Midi's are just a conduit to a persons Force ability, and they are not the Force itself? This way I think the Force itself could be genetically passed down, but it's the Midi's that choose who they communicate with so they are not genetic. It also maintains the mysticism of the Force itself while having a "scientific/biological" explanation into how it is used. I hope I've explained that clearly enough
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
I repost my answer from the other thread.
Based on the PT, I think you are partly correct.
The Force is still the Force, an energy field generated by all living things.
The Midis are a microscopic lifeform and what they do, very basically, is act like middlemen. They provide a means for other beings to use the power of the Force and listen to the Force's will.
If you have loads of midis then you have an easier access to the Force or you can hear it more strongly.
If you have few midis, either you can not access the Force in any way, or only in a very limited way.
I don't think the midis themselves can regulate how easy their host can use the Force, it is simply a matter of numbers. Many midis, easy use, few midis, weak use.
Wheter the midis themselves are in any way sentient is unclear. They are microscopic and given that 20 000 of them can fit inside one cell, they would be very small indeed. Perhaps about the size of a starch molecule. Given that small size, sentience is unlikely.
If what Qui-Gon said is true, that Anakin was concieved by the midis then it is likely that this was done on order by the Force. So that means that the Force can "talk" to the midis and get them to do things. Perhaps the Force can not act on it's own in the physical world, it might need an agent in some fashion. If what Palpatine said is true then a strong Force user can also "talk" to the midis and get them to do things.
Questions that I have wondered about are, if number of midis matter, why is only the number per cell important? If all the midis in one cell can work together and provide a strong connection to the Force, why can't all the midis in your body to the same?
How would a blood transfusion work, would the midis in the donated blood imideatly alter their number to fit the new body? How would they know? If they can "talk" with all the other midis then we are back to the first question.
Why would the number of midis be constant? The midis are a separte life form, they would reproduce independent of the host. So if they lack "food" the number of midis would go down and vice versa.
Bye for now.
You sum up many of the ...complications surrounding the 'scientific' explanation of the Force. Bio-babble.
Perhaps midichlorians are analogous (on some level) to the brain? What I mean is, intelligence isn't correlated with brain size so much as it is with connectivity and brain network. After all, there are whales with brains larger than humans' but that doesn't mean they are more intelligent. Similarly, birds often have small brains but some (such as crows) are remarkably intelligent.
Plus, it might also be that midichlorians reflect one's Force potential, but aren't the cause of it. Meaning that if a person is strong in the Force, midichlorians are more likely to congregate or reproduce within that person. It's a cause and effect question as well, I think.
Either way, I think it's pretty fascinating.
Whilst I'm quite accepting of the midis being a force mitochondria type organism, I still don't get force ghosts if midis are necessary for force usage.
Or are midis also free circulating in the environment and the "ghost" harnesses these to make themselves visable?