BTS New info regarding Midiclorian debate: GL initially felt that anyone could learn the Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by grimlockbedi, May 25, 2013.

  1. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    First, about brain size in humans and other animals. What is often talked about there is the relative size of the brain compared with the rest of the body.
    Humans have a large brain compared to our body size. A blue whale has a bigger bran but also a much larger body.
    From Wikipedia:
    Humans have the highest EQ of all animals. Almost twice that of dolphins and three times that of monkeys and other primates.

    Second, yes intelligence is often defined as how many cross connections you have in the brain. With many connections you can find info quicker and are able to cross-reference that info with other bits of info. But the different parts of the brain is able to work together, each brain cell do not function as an totally independent unit.
    So if the midis work like the brain, why would their co-operation stop outside a single cell? Much more reasonable that they work together in the whole of the body.

    Third, the films do seem to imply that if you have loads of midis you have an easier time using the power of the Force. Anakin could tap into it without any training and the only reasons seemed to be because he had so many midis.
    Also, midis exist in all cells, if no midis were present, then life could not exist. Since the Force is generated by life and if all life were to die, the Force would cease to be. Midis are a life form unto itself and could presumable exist without any other life. Then the logical conclusion is that the first life that existed in the SW galaxy, were midis. Some time later, the Force came into being. So the midis would have existed before the Force.
    Then given this, it would seem simpler that the midis is just a conduit for the Force. It enables the life form to tap into the Force and possibly, it allows the Force to manipulate the body of the life form in question. So the more you have, the more Force sensitive you are.
    Midis are present in infants and even in fetuses. Since the Jedi apparently test newborns and based on that test, those newborns are selected as possible Jedi. So that would indicate that the number of midis do not change from birth.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  2. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 2, 2013
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    ...are you sure you're not somebody possessed by Darth Plagueis? You seem to have thought a great deal about this.
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  3. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Hmm, so that's who has drunk all my beer and used up all the toilet paper.:p

    Well I have an analytical mind and with movies I can often just think about how a certain things works. Independent of whether I like the thing or not. If I think it is interesting then I sometimes, not always, think about some more. Also I have seen and been a part of similar discussions here and I try to look at something from more than one angle and try to see the other side of the argument. I most assuredly don't always succeed and can be very biased in some cases. But I have worked a lot in science and research so I am used to think about things in that manner.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  4. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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  5. YodasNewPadawan Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 2, 2013
    That sounds about right, or at least it would help find a way to keep continuity
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  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Exactly. The capacity to work or the capacity to be committed to something are not special. Almost anyone with proper motivation can display these qualities. There are a great many people who are committed to something. Large numbers of people work quite hard every day. There would simply be far too many sapient beings possessing such potential to thusly explain Jedi numbers, in any galaxy.

    I don't understand why, of those two alternatives, one is labeled "sci-fi" and the other is labeled "fantasy". Each one is really as fantasy or sci-fi as the other. In either case the Force is an energy field in a space fantasy. It's just a question of how many sides it has externally : two ( in Lucas' version ) or one ( in the fan version ).
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Aug 10, 2013
  7. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    Why are there so few holy men/holy people in our own galaxy, compared to the general populace?
  8. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    (Edit doesn't seem to be working) Better example: why are there so few people who become followers of gurus, and then either become gurus themselves, or return to normal life with their new worldviews? Maybe there are plenty of people who believe in the Force ("may the Force be with you") but few of them, as in real life, are willing to devote their entire lives to studying it and figuring out its secrets. There are some people who are attracted to the power it affords, but in the absence of a genuine interest/identification with the Force itself, that leads them down the dark path. It's for those who want the easy way out.
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  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Low demand, low pay.

    ( Also it's a completely false comparison because the Force is unquestionably real in-universe while the subject of real-world religions is not. Holy men don't levitate stuff and shoot lightning. )
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Aug 10, 2013
  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    It's not completely false; I recognize that ANH is not the whole saga, but the way Han, Motti, and Tarkin all talk about the Jedi and the Force accord with that kind of model.

    Also, true that Force-users have unique abilities in-universe. Given that these abilities are often physical and/or mental feats, perhaps a comparison with martial artists, weapons experts, and rocket scientists is apt as well. Those are also not exactly the most common types of activity in our own world. Why? They're complicated and difficult. For the average person, why spend all that blood, sweat, and tears learning to carefully levitate the X-Wing when you can just hire a guy with a tractor beam? Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.
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  11. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 27, 2012
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    Luke Skywalker spends what seems to be a day learning the Force, and by the end of that day he can make an impossible shot that destroys the Death Star. In a few years time, without any formal training, he can use telekinesis.

    Why the hell would Luke not share this with the other Rebels if he could? Is he that selfish that he'd rather be the only special one, rather than make the Alliance a super-powered army?
  12. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    I'm not saying Luke has zero additional talents for understanding and interacting with the Force, that other people lack; I'm saying that that doesn't have to be the only factor. Though to your question, it also has to do with trust. A blaster or other technology is reliable, in a mechanistic, materialistic way. Beliefs and luck and ethereal mysticism isn't. "His computer's off!" vs. "Trust your instincts." In the later films, it does seem less believable that people would disbelieve in the Force, but in the first film (which sets the stage, and is also the one you're mainly responding to there), it makes sense. Sort of. One might argue that that makes the films increasingly inconsistent with each other, but to each their own.
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  13. only one kenobi Force Ghost

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    How many people ever witness the powers of the Force in the OT? The battles between Luke, Vader and the Emperor are all witness free. When Luke uses his own powers rather then then the computer's to destroy the Death Star, how many are going to think 'it must have been the Force', rather than 'that kid's got talent/lucky'? And of those who did think it was the Force, how many would think he was blessed by the Force rather than that he has learned a power? (remember Leia, who we are told does have the power that Luke has, does not believe that she can do what he does)

    Also...there's a little matter of being careful with who learns the power of the Force; that is what Yoda is questioning in ESB after all. Is Luke stable enough to be trusted with these powers? We have Vader and the Emperor as examples of what happens when people learn the power of the Force, but come to believe they are greater than the Force.
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  14. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 20, 2013
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    Superb comment!
    Yet another OT plot-hole.
    At least when you're supporting this theory.
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  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    I don't think that really matters to the point I was making, which didn't presume to exclude an ANH-centric model. The point was that in-universe the Force is real. In other words, if real-world religion gave people the power to levitate things, super speed, the power to shoot bolts of lightning from their hands, and other such "magic" abilities, it is arguable that more people would be acting as so-called "holy men". That is why I called it a false comparison; to imply that the relatively small number of Jedi is explained by the proportion of real-world "holy men" is to ignore the vastly different situation created by having a canonically real Force.

    "If the rule you followed led you to this, of what use was the rule?"
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Aug 20, 2013
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    The OT makes it quite clear that the Skywalkers are a chosen family. They are especially powerful for unknown reasons (probably destiny). No plothole.

    "Luke...the Force runs strong in your family."

    "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it and... My sister has it."
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Aug 21, 2013
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  17. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    Depends what you mean by "especially powerful." From the OT alone - which seems to be the bit you're talking about - we didn't know if GL meant for Force talent to be a thing that is heritable generally, or if the Skywalkers are a truly unique case. And while the PT turned Anakin into The Chosen One, we still don't know the movie-accuracy of the general heritability of Force talents (it's used quite a bit in the EU).

    It's different in some ways, but similar in others. Yeah, the Force is real in-universe, but the idea that one needs to spend time and effort to access it (even the dark siders seem to have to study it and learn about themselves as well) is similar both to real world religious/philosophical traditions and to other highly skilled activities. It's like, why walk to town when you can pay someone else and have a car? For most people, the amount of effort and focus (and everything else) it takes to learn to use the Force is just too much trouble - especially if they don't start off with the level of innate talent the Skywalkers did. This doesn't seem like a story-breaking problem to me.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 21, 2013
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  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    In any case it disproves the notion that Lukes fast learning is a plothole. The movies made abundantly clear that not everyone is a Luke (or Leia).
  19. Ananta Chetan Force Ghost

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    Is the idea of "karma" ever used within the SW universe to explain such differences?
  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Karma? Not that I know of.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    How or why should Force ability be genetically inherited only in the case of one family and no others?

    But actually it isn't. Religion in the real world doesn't take time and effort to access, nor do those who have practiced it for a substantial amount of time develop actual "magical" powers. Generally speaking, the tendency to use the real world as a model for Star Wars is fallacious in nature. As something nonexistent in the real world the Force is not necessarily analogous to things we know.
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  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    From ROTJ it doesn't have to be that Force ability is specifically genetic for all - it could be that it's more of a "Divine Right of Kings" for the Skywalkers. That's more 'fantasy' than scifi, but SW has always had connections to fantasy tropes. Is it my preferred model? No. But it is a plausible one, based solely on that film/the OT.

    But actually it is. I'm not a believer in any supernatural stuff, but some kinds of meditation, involving control over some bodily and/or mental functions for example, do take time and expertise to learn. Given the Force's clear Eastern influences, I would think that that part is very relevant.

    We have to use the real world as a model for SW. Otherwise, it becomes incoherent. There is sound in space - does that mean that the laws of physics are different? If they are, how does that affect every other aspect of the universe (gravity? Wavelengths of light? Mass itself?)? These can be interesting things to consider, but they can also just make no sense if we deliberately forget that they are meant to be references to the way we're used to things working, as an audience with a specific planetary and historical context. Star Wars is not Stephenson's Anathem (a story that builds a world intentionally dealing with different physical laws, and examining what happens because of that - or so I am told). That's not to say that that kind of analysis can't be done, or isn't interesting; just that I get the sense that Star Wars is meant to be more a lens on which we view our own world, a commentary, than a thought experiment. It's a type of mirror which distorts real life in specific ways (intentionally and not), based on how Lucas and the other creators saw the world and the zeitgeist(s) of the times the films were conceived within.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Aug 26, 2013
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    But, again, why? Why would such a thing have been the case? Why should only one family bloodline have this "right"? And perhaps more to the point, assuming it really did work that way, how would characters such as Obi-Wan, Palpatine and Luke have known it to be the case?

    As to the question of how much expertise is required to control oneself mentally, that seems like a separate issue due to its high level of subjectivity. But it's still a false comparison on a certain level because meditation doesn't produce the ability to do telekinesis or see the future or cast bolts of lightning from one's hands, etc. ( It also loses grasp of the "small number of holy men" strategy, because now we're looking at a larger group of meditators and relative Jedi numbers are not comparable. )

    Whatever we might imagine the purpose of SW to be, the fact remains that it is not set in the real world, and I don't mean that in the all-inclusive sense of fiction in general, but in the sense that its setting contains fantastical elements which do not exist in the real world. Specifically, the Force. As such, trying to constrain the behavior of the Force by reference to things we see when looking at the real world is essentially meaningless.

    SW has many influences, including ( apparently ) the Lensmen. ( Besides, you may find that the Force's Eastern influences carry less weight than they should in cases where they tend to go against popular fanon. )

    We don't have to, some of us want to. By this approach we traditionally end up with Force use being treated like dribbling a basketball. Why? Because there is anything at all in the saga to indicate that Force ability should have any resemblance to the ability to dribble a basketball? No, because asserting that the Force is like dribbling a basketball supports a certain narrative.

    So if we don't cling to the assertion that the ( real ) Force can be modeled on the ( not provably real ) subject of real-world religions, the laws of physics will be in jeopardy as well? This does not follow.

    This pretty much describes "science fiction" in general.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Aug 26, 2013
  24. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    I believe we were even talking about this because Pevra brought up the general concept. I will leave her(?) to expand on whatever point she(?) making; I was merely asserting that it could be plausible.

    A larger number of meditators perhaps, but how many are truly masters? Probably not as many. I'll agree that it's a false comparison on a certain level. It's just that it's also accurate on others.

    There are two kinds of analysis we could do here. One is extrapolating just from the source - the films, for example - with deliberately no knowledge or comparisons to real life. In this case, we'd have to conclude that a luminiferous ether or something similar exists in SW, which would mean that the physics are different, which should affect the setting and story in numerous ways.

    However, those considerations don't seem to affect much of anything within the story-world. The films appear to include references to influences and cultural detritus, such as (in the example of sound in space) films dramatizing World War II. This is the second type of analysis - one which recognizes that the films are films presented to a human audience on earth in the late 20th/early 21st century. Why is there sound in space? Because of that filmic/historical context. Why do the characters speak english? Have the demographics of 1970s America (in the OT)? Not have the internet? At some level, these aspects of the worldbuilding are all explicit or implicit references to the state of the world when the films were made, filtered through George Lucas. The Force is some kind of religious/superpower analogue, filtered in the same way. Can we take exegesis directly from the films alone? Sure. But I think it's also useful to keep in mind where those depictions did (or seem to have) come from.

    What does this mean?

    If we don't keep the real world in mind, the films are incoherent. Why do the characters speak english? Why are they even shaped like humans? For the audience's benefit.

    And the metaphor you reference is more like height (a partially heritable factor) influencing the ease with which one can become good at basketball, not anything to do with dribbling. Your simplification of it removes any sense it makes.

    See above.

    Yes.
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    What do I mean? Well, the force might have imbued Luke & Leia with special power to balance itself, as Anakin pretty much failed to do the "will of the force" in ROTS. It makes sense in a way that the children would be tasked with eradicating the mistakes of their parents. It follows the "passing the torch" concept. The responsibility is passed from one generation to the next.

    It is also a reflection of real life because children have to outgrow their parents at one point, maybe even "surpass" them for society as a whole to function.

    I am not sure force sensitivity is always a blessing too. Often enough it seems to be more like a curse. Being part of the "blessed family" comes with its disadvantages.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Aug 28, 2013