Lit New Jedi Order filled with poorly thought out characters

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Kyris Cavisek, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Supporting Jedi rarely make an impression for a number of reasons, some having to do with writing setup - ie. the main novel line's Skywalker/Solo obsession from Dark Nest onward: FotJ, nine books, number of new major characters reliably qualifying as major: 1, Vestara Khai, even the villain didn't really count. Regrettably there have been only three, three! side-novels set from 30-44 ABY, two featuring Jaden Korr and one that is essentially a short story serial about the Millenium Falcon, no short story collections, no ebook novellas.

    There is also the troubling problem that they really don't have much to differeniate them in terms of abilities. Since new characters generally show up only during combat, and all Jedi have similar fighting styles, and or piloting abilities, these people really aren't that different in terms of practical capabilities. As a result, this makes it very difficult for members of the Jedi Order to shine as specific role-players (this is partly a problem of having major characters who are a bit too adept in a wide-range of fields).

    Seha is notable not simply because she managed to show up a couple of times, but because in FotJ she did something other than swing her lightsaber at random enemies.
  2. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    This kind of thing is one of the numerous reasons why I can't take DNT, LotF, and FotJ seriously.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  3. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Seha lived in the slums of Coruscant during the Vong War where the World Mind resided. Jacen found her and brought her into the Jedi Order. She works as a double agent for Jacen when he begins his fall. When he is outted as a Sith Lord, she confesses to the council. They use her to crawl through the sewer system in the lower levels of Coruscant.
  4. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    She survived in the lower levels during the Vong occupation (with all their biots, which still exist down there) - makes sense that she should have been included for her specialised knowledge. Also, she stuck the tracker patch to Jacen's cloak and got Kyle Katarn out of the melee and into cover. Not too bad a day's work for an inexperienced Jedi.
  5. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I feel as though Seha was originally being set up as Ben's early romance. However Vestara took that piece, Seha fell in line which was nice. However, it is sad. When the council grows too old the new council will be Jaina's generation and Ben with maybe the Horns. Brakkty'l is another example of a random character. Granted she was added to the council for additional alien casting but Lowie or Izal Waz would have fit better, so when you read who it is you go I know who that is, I havent seen them in forever. Then you give a line about which other jedi you know is their apprentice and what they have been up to reciently, next thing you know. A character that was used often a while ago has new life. But still I suggested 21 Jedi Knights that they should keep, combined with the 12 Masters council, and I think Kiranna Ti and Streen are on Dathomir doing something. So that makes an order of 33, even with an additional 7 Jedi added it will allow for a cohessive order, you could begin to understand friendships, rivalries, master apprentice lineages.
  6. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    I'd rather they whip up a series ala Wraith squadron. Make it about a buncha peripheral misfits who aren't quite fit to be Jedi for one reason or another instead of trying to focus on the orthodox rank and file in the order.

    The reason being is that since the NJO has gone back to the "Train from childhood in a secluded giant temple" model of training, I fear we're going to get alot of jedi who are very standard and samey, in terms of personality and morality.

    If they want next gen Jedi characters with staying power they gotta make them unique, fun, and/or interesting is what I'm saying.
    Last edited by Landostrip, Nov 14, 2012
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  7. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    Sinrebirth posted what (presently) are canon figures for the size of the Order a while back;

    Numbers: 44 ABY. 600 Jedi Masters and Knights. 400 students.

    Of course, they lost some to Abeloth/Lost Tribe.
  8. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    I dont't think I am explaining myself clearly, you keep telling me what she is, female redhead jedi #006 not who she is.

    Whats her motivation for joing a group who primarily gets shot at? Why is she a Jedi?

    How dose she view the Jedi's place in sociaty?

    What is her reaction to extreme danger?

    What about her makes her identifiable than any other z-list cannaon fodder/ lower decks character.

    She was created to be Ben's love intrest? so what so was Vestara he was established with a personality, and view points.

    Same with Tenel Ka created by KJA hardly the greatest writer on earth but still with a defined and growth capable personality.

    What makes this Seha unique?
    Last edited by Likewater, Nov 14, 2012
  9. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Seha is the go to infiltrator for the council in FotJ, trained under Octa Ramis. The majority of her family died in the Yuuzhan Vong War when she was just a young girl. When she met Solo she not only felt the Jedi had saved the galaxy but the Jedi gave her a home. She has been brave countless times from within the series. She was personally responsible from rescuing the Great Bearded One from a near fatal wound at the hands of Caedus, against his direct orders I might add.

    When Horn went crazy it was Dorvald that managed to track him using her brain, not the force. She reveals to Octa that she had crushes on both Jacen Solo and Valin Horn, both of which had turned from the order (Valin, only for a time). She shows strength in the Force working in a Padawan/Master scene with Octa Ramis, where they compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses. She basically acts the Senior Jedi Apprentice while in the temple, leading the other Jedi in training on missions to simple for Knights, such as exploring the tunnels under the temple.

    Again Seha uses her brain to make a system to send messages out of the besieged Jedi Temple using Force compled rodents. It was after this she became a Knight. She smuggled Kyp Durron and Octa Ramis into the Senate Building by masquerading as a shuttle pilot. She gets caught, turns herself in, but not before bugging everything in the building including herself. She was rescued by an apprentice. She fought and survived the final battle of FotJ.
  10. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    You make her sound alot more memorable than any of the books did.

    Probably becuse i am guessing they told and not showed.
  11. Reveen Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2012
    star 3
    That's a summary of events, not motivations or personality.

    They just gotta give us with more to them characterization wise than "mildly snarky, but otherwise heroic".
  12. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Sadly you have a point and Seha is one of the better thought out characters. The only others being Valin and maybe Sothais Saar.
  13. Likewater Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    In the Dresden File Harry Dresden has an Apprentice Molly Carpenter http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Molly_Carpenter
    Who is this Girl?

    While Molly is powerful magically she is bad at Forceful obvious magic like fireball and lighting and anything flashy, to use guild wars as an example he is more mesmer than elemntalist. The girl also has a forceful and disobedient personality due to her mother's overbearing nature. Molly will also make short term deals and solutions to her problems, making deals with Harry's evil though in her own way loving fairy godmother.

    molly will brutally reject aid by inspiring fear in her friends and family viewing it as protecting them, has used her illusions to get criminals and corrupt cops to off each other (A capital level offense for Wizards), Of course being under a delayed death sentence for her altering of her friends minds (another capital offense), she went to Kill on sight status because of Harry's death killed her chances at "parole" in "Changes" she was already predisposed to using her powers in ways the White Council (think jedi council with emphasis or rules rather than morality) disapproved of.

    Why does she do what she does? her father and Harry are best friends, her father being a Knight of the Cross (think paladin) their exploits during her childhood led them to see them as super heroes and something to be emulated as her father shielded her from the realities of the monstrous things he fought.

    Her personality now is very cynical, and she craves power to right the wrongs and kill the creatures that prey on Chicago's populace.
    thats not a mission dossier, thats a summer of her personality traits, skill set, and motivation.

    Why does seha crush on Jacen and Velin? Because there hot? i am guessing.

    Why did Molly crush on Harry, he is a dark mysterious family frined who aided her father on otherworldy adventures. They guy who stoped the white council for executing her for breaking rules she knew nothing about. And who braved queen mabs center of power when her own abilities got out of control, and draged her into the Never Never.
    A bit more indepth than they are hot and well known.

    I am pretty sure she had been in less books than say Seha, but she had been a major part of a cast rather than a minor part of a crew. And she has been central to a narrative.

    Most of the characters you mention have never been central to anything, thus they have little parts to play and few reasons for existing.
    Last edited by Likewater, Nov 14, 2012
  14. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    That is the point. They are poorly created and written. I do not see the point in naming a character to give them one or two lines of back story. Yes the jedi order is filled with characters we need to know some of their names but they need to stop just naming every character. If a character gets a name it should have personality and motivation as well as the ability to carry on into other novels. I want a book about the lesser named jedi on a mission where we get to know them. Jaden Korr can get thrown around cause he has a video game and 2 novels about him. Don't name drop a no name, and if you do, make that name count
    TychoCorde likes this.
  15. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I wonder what Rush Penin has been up too. Lowbacca should be getting pretty close to master level in a few more years,especially if he trained an apprentice. Btw, why has there been no listed formal master for him like nearly every other Jedi of his class?
  16. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Rosh could die in JK:JA. However I feel like he survived as well. I wished Kemp would have touched on Raltharan and Penin
  17. Jedi Master Zidane Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    I'm not entirely sure who all is on the Master's Council these days. There are twelve, aren't there?

    1. Luke Skywalker
    2. Saba Sebatyne
    3. Corran Horn
    4. Kyle Katarn
    5. Kyp Durron
    6. Cilghal
    7. Octa Ramis
    8. Barrak'tl
    9. Jaina Solo Fel
    Who am I missing?
  18. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    1. Luke Skywalker
    2. Saba Sebatyne
    3. Corran Horn
    4. Kyle Katarn
    5. Kyp Durron
    6. Cilghal
    7. Octa Ramis
    8. Barrak'tl
    9. Jaina Solo Fel
    10. Kam Solusar
    11. Tionne Solusar
    12. (Kenth Hamner's Empty Seat)

    Hope it is for Lowie...
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    I feel that there should be one more (at least) - Jaina was promoted after Kenth died, and may not be on the Council anyway; she has achieved the rank required but 'Master' does not necessarily mean 'Council Member' (IIRC).
  20. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Originally when created in 35 ABY it was:
    1. Luke Skywalker
    2. Mara Jade Skywalker
    3. Corran Horn
    4. Kyp Durron
    5. Kenth Hamner
    6. Cilghal
    7. Saba Sebatyne
    8. Kyle Katarn
    9. Tersina Lobi
    10. Octa Ramis
    11. Kam Solusar
    12. Tionne Solusar

    Then Tersina Lobi Died and Mara Died
    12-2=10
    Then it got Bakkatk'l
    10+1=11
    Then Saba killed Kenth
    11-1=10
    Then Jaina became a Master (who may sit on the council?)
    10+1=11

    One seat remains empty
    My suggestions (in order)
    Lowbacca
    Izal Waz
    Kiranna Ti
    Waxarn Kel
    Zekk
    Tahiri
  21. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    This entire debate is why the writers have utterly failed since the end of NJO. Instead of introducing more new characters in and putting the Skywalker/Solo clan on the back burner we've had established characters thrown into limbo or only receiving a name drop here and there, and new characters appearing or getting mentioned once then either killed off or thrown onto a bus and sent into a black hole, all while Vader's ilk take up the attention and spotlight. As i've said before, a YJK series for Ben would've done wonders not only for the character, but the franchise as a whole. That Zekk novel they were planning was a real step in the right direction before it was cancelled. They need to stop these 9 book series and go back to the Bantam Era, or create a 9 book series of standalone novels, each featuring a different Jedi that isn't a Skywalker or Solo, and then maybe tie it up at the end with an overarching plot. Like having all separate adventures lead into one big adventure for the next series to start with.
    Kyris Cavisek likes this.
  22. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 5
    The question is, who is the senior Jedi on Dathomir? Represening the enclave there would be a good move IMHO - I would prefer Kiranna Ti if that option is taken.

    Izal Waz has a salt-habit - so may not really be qualified for Council duties.

    Lowbacca is an option, and a good one - provided the Wookie-Jedi ruling can be voided.
  23. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I don't think that 9 books about 9 different Jedi would make a great series. However, looking objectively at the Jedi Knights listed, I really think either Valin Horn, Seff Hellin, Kunor Bann, or Doran Tainer could head line a Jedi Strike Team/X Wing Squadron plot.

    I would love to see Ben have a YJK series. If he makes it into EP 7, I expect to see it. I really want Ben's generation to step up. New list being generated now...
  24. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Izal Waz hasn't been on Salt since NJO, Jaina fell to the Dark side for a bit in that time. Kyp blew up all of Cardia. Even Jedi have their sins
  25. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Older than YJK
    Waxarn Kel
    Wonetun
    Izal Waz
    Tam Azur Jamin
    Jaden Korr
    Raltharan
    Shul Vaal

    YJK Aged Grads
    Lowbacca
    Raynar Thul
    Tekli
    Tesar Sebatyne
    Zekk

    JJK Aged Grads
    Tahiri Veila
    Valin Horn
    Jysella Horn
    Doran Tainer
    Kunor Bann
    Turi Altamik
    Seff Hellin
    Yaqeel Savettu
    Sothais Saar

    LotF Grads
    Tiu Zax
    Kolir Hu'lya
    Ben Skywalker (Aged closer to FotJ grads)
    Sanola Ti

    FotJ Grads
    Seha Dorvald
    Avinoam Arelis
    Yantahar Bwau'tu
    Dordi
    Zal
    Wilyem
    Vaala Razelle
    Radd Minker
    Huli
    Rivai
    Jayk
    Ramud